Again it must be discussed: Black Card in Hurling

Xenophile

Do the last two major games that Galway played in justify the introduction of the Black card in Hurling.

1.........The Seamus Callanan penalty incident against Tipperary.
2.........The Johnny Coen incident involving Colin Fennelly yesterday.

The introduction of the Black card would give referees a middle ground choice!

dastardly00

Xenophile wrote: »

Do the last two major games that Galway played in justify the introduction of the Black card in Hurling.

1.........The Seamus Callanan penalty incident against Tipperary.
2.........The Johnny Coen incident involving Colin Fennelly yesterday.

The introduction of the Black card would give referees a middle ground choice!

No. The Coen foul on Fennelly should have been a red card.
If there was a black card option in hurling, it would have been stupid to have awarded it to Coen. The pundits on The Sunday Game wouldn't have said: "Yes... it was the correct decision to award Coen a black card....". They would still have all agreed that it should have been a red card.

It wasn't a cynical foul, like a pull-down or a third-man tackle. It was a very high, dangerous tackle around the neck of a player. Red card, all day long. James Owen and his officials got it wrong. He should have made the big call, and used his red card. Having a black card would just have given him another option of an easy way out.

Xenophile

dastardly00 wrote: »

No. The Coen foul on Fennelly should have been a red card.
If there was a black card option in hurling, it would have been stupid to have awarded it to Coen. The pundits on The Sunday Game wouldn't have said: "Yes... it was the correct decision to award Coen a black card....". They would still have all agreed that it should have been a red card.

It wasn't a cynical foul, like a pull-down or a third-man tackle. It was a very high, dangerous tackle around the neck of a player. Red card, all day long. James Owen and his officials got it wrong. He should have made the big call, and used his red card. Having a black card would just have given him another option of an easy way out.

I agree it should have been a red card. I was in front of the upper deck of the Cusack and saw the incident very clearly.

I favour the black card, as many referees bottle it, and they will again in the future. The Black card would be more like a get out of jail card for the referee.

bucketybuck

Xenophile wrote: »

The introduction of the Black card would give referees a middle ground choice!

Xenophile wrote: »

I favour the black card, as many referees bottle it, and they will again in the future. The Black card would be more like a get out of jail card for the referee.

But thats exactly why the black card isn't working, its just used as a safe choice rather than the referee having to make the correct choice.

The ref probably would have used a black card yesterday and it would have been the wrong decision. We would be better focusing on doing things right rather than giving refs an easy way out.

Poor_old_gill

Coen should have walked and rather than discussing black cards- retrospective action would be more apt

danganabu

Xenophile wrote: »

Do the last two major games that Galway played in justify the introduction of the Black card in Hurling.

1.........The Seamus Callanan penalty incident against Tipperary.
2.........The Johnny Coen incident involving Colin Fennelly yesterday.

The introduction of the Black card would give referees a middle ground choice!

They were both red card offences, although to be fair to the ref in the Tipp game it was hard to see it in real time, having a black card only serves to offer more incentive for refs to take the 'easy' option.

WesternZulu

If the media applied the same criteria to hurling as they do to football then the black card would be in already.

You can almost kill a man in hurling and nothing is said besides it being a mans game; it's very much a different story for football!

Take for instance the Sean Cavanagh incident against Monaghan which arguably brought in the black card; it was almost a carbon copy of the Galway tackle which lead to the penalty against Tipp.

Was the Galway full backs integrity as a man questioned, was it seen as a major black mark against the game of hurling....no it wasn't.

For better or worse the media never criticise the game of hurling and for that reason alone the black card won't be brought in.

Xenophile

bucketybuck wrote: »

The ref probably would have used a black card yesterday and it would have been the wrong decision. We would be better focusing on doing things right rather than giving refs an easy way out.

In my opinion a black card if it was available would have been a better decision than a yellow. I agree with the posters here who say that the black card is an easy decision when it should be a red. If referees continue to bottle it, the Black card should be introduced with a view to it being a stepping stone to a Red where it is deserved. Change takes time and it will be sometime yet before some referees get their emotions out of the way and start to make professional decisions.

pmasterson95

WesternZulu wrote: »

If the media applied the same criteria to hurling as they do to football then the black card would be in already.

You can almost kill a man in hurling and nothing is said besides it being a mans game; it's very much a different story for football!

Take for instance the Sean Cavanagh incident against Monaghan which arguably brought in the black card; it was almost a carbon copy of the Galway tackle which lead to the penalty against Tipp.

Was the Galway full backs integrity as a man questioned, was it seen as a major black mark against the game of hurling....no it wasn't.

For better or worse the media never criticise the game of hurling and for that reason alone the black card won't be brought in.

That was Joe Brolly loosing the head that caused the Cavanagh debate. If Brolly did hurling ya mighta got that **** storm but nope.

dastardly00

I think the black card could be appropriate for a last-man type cynical foul in hurling

But if the black card did exist in hurling, I think Hanbury probably should have gotten a red for the way he pile-drived Callinan to the ground.

citykat

There is nowhere near the amount of cynical tackling in hurling as there is in football that would warrant introducing the black card. There are plenty of rules/punishments in hurling, all the ref has to do is apply them. The two instances cited in the OP were not cynical but dangerous and should have been deemed so by the refs concerned.

Mountainlad

The justification for difference in my opinion is the speed of the game. Cynical fouling does happen in hurling, but it's harder to do. And when you're on a yellow card you're in a more dangerous position too. It's easier to get different men to make the foul each time in football. And there'll be more attacks in hurling so if you're on a yellow card you are in dangerous territory.

Also, the black card has not deterred cynical fouling. If it's not working, why would you apply it to hurling?

Davys Fits

I bet Anthony cunningham was wishing there was a black card when the ref was talking to Coen. Sending Coen off could have ruined the game long before half time where a black card would have ensured 15 on 15. However as other said the reasons it was brought in was for persistent cynical fouling. Of course there is cynical fouling in hurling but the there is far less of it than there was in football before the black card was introduced.

zetecescort

citykat wrote: »

There is nowhere near the amount of cynical tackling in hurling as there is in football that would warrant introducing the black card. There are plenty of rules/punishments in hurling, all the ref has to do is apply them. The two instances cited in the OP were not cynical but dangerous and should have been deemed so by the refs concerned.

do ye not call at every opportunity for refs to let it flow?

citykat

zetecescort wrote: »

do ye not call at every opportunity for refs to let it flow?

When a player is lying on the ground with a sore neck, no.

Red Kev

Davys Fits wrote: »

I bet Anthony cunningham was wishing there was a black card when the ref was talking to Coen. Sending Coen off could have ruined the game long before half time where a black card would have ensured 15 on 15. However as other said the reasons it was brought in was for persistent cynical fouling. Of course there is cynical fouling in hurling but the there is far less of it than there was in football before the black card was introduced.

It's nothing to do with ruining a game. That was a straight red in any game, at any time in a match. The only person to blame for a red card would have been Coen himself.

And I'm saying that as a Rossie who was cheering on Galway yesterday.

FatherTed

If Coen should have gotten a red then this similar foul on Whelan should have been a red as well if we're trying to be consistent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjvx_8AUCY4&t=16m28s

Gentleman Off The Pitch

FatherTed wrote: »

If Coen should have gotten a red then this similar foul on Whelan should have been a red as well if we're trying to be consistent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjvx_8AUCY4&t=16m28s

Would you go away out that, there were a number of incidents like that during the game as there are in every game where players are punished for putting the hurl over the shoulder.

In this case, Whelan cuts across Pendergast with his body low to the ground and Pendergast's hurl that he put around Whelen ends up be up high at the shoulder and defenders can expect a free to be conceded in the modern game. There was no impact on Whelens neck, head like there was in the Coen incidents where Coen ran at Fennelly and the impact to the head and neck propelled Fennelly into the air.

Some could argue that they'd fall into the same category of offence but anyone can see which of the offences were by far the most dangerous and cynical

Clareman

I think the black card is a cop out, it's either a bad foul or not, in football it was brought in to stop teams conceding soft frees to allow the team to reset, I think it has succeeded in that but that's not an issue in hurling. I think hurling is perfect for a sin bin, stuff like "professional " fouls or other deemed fouls (eg facemask pulling) should be team down to 14 for 10 minutes.

Xenophile

Clareman wrote: »

I think the black card is a cop out, it's either a bad foul or not, in football it was brought in to stop teams conceding soft frees to allow the team to reset, I think it has succeeded in that but that's not an issue in hurling. I think hurling is perfect for a sin bin, stuff like "professional " fouls or other deemed fouls (eg facemask pulling) should be team down to 14 for 10 minutes.

Maybe there is some merit with the sin bid idea +red card for the next game. As a cynical foul in the square with only a few minutes to go should carry a more appropriate punishment.

Clareman

Xenophile wrote: »

Maybe there is some merit with the sin bid idea +red card for the next game. As a cynical foul in the square with only a few minutes to go should carry a more appropriate punishment.

I think the biggest problem with the first implementation is that it was overthought, no need to over think it, if someone is sinned binned after 60 minutes then they are out for the rest of the game, if they are sent off after (say) 32 minutes then they miss the first 7 minutes of the second half (i.e. injury time isn't accounted for). Also, players can only come back on during a break in play, so the sin binning will be over 10 minutes.

elastico

I'd rather yellow = 10 minutes in the bin, down to 14 and no sending off for second yellow

FatherTed

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

Would you go away out that, there were a number of incidents like that during the game as there are in every game where players are punished for putting the hurl over the shoulder.

In this case, Whelan cuts across Pendergast with his body low to the ground and Pendergast's hurl that he put around Whelen ends up be up high at the shoulder and defenders can expect a free to be conceded in the modern game. There was no impact on Whelens neck, head like there was in the Coen incidents where Coen ran at Fennelly and the impact to the head and neck propelled Fennelly into the air.

Some could argue that they'd fall into the same category of offence but anyone can see which of the offences were by far the most dangerous and cynical

Unpunished

cj maxx

As a ( mostly) football follower i suggest hirling does not allow a black card .
Its been a balls up in football ,
Yellow then red really does seem the best way to cut fown on blatant or 'professional' fouling .