Boiler problems

powerstation

Hi Folks,

I'm wondering if someone can help me here.

I bought a home 2 years ago, the boiler is an Ideal Logic 15 and worked great for the first year but is now failing to ignite. I need to restart it until it does eventually light up.

I also noticed the actuator has been removed from the diverter valve at the cylinder. It looks like the cylinder was constantly receiving heated water from the boiler, which may explain my high heating bills.

I'd like to receive quotes to fix the boiler and the actuator to restore the heating system to good working condition. I'm based in Leopardstown.

Thanks,
Leo

JohnnieK

Hi Leo.

The actuator in the hot-press is an unrelated problem to your boiler.

Have you any idea how old the boiler is?
I would recommend you call Davies on 018511700, they are the agents for Ideal in Ireland and they will put you right with the boiler (it might even still be under warranty).

In relation to the actuator it is most likely failed and someone's remedy to the problem was to remove the actuator as opposed to replacing it.

Hope this helps.

quietsailor

Depending on the make and model of the actuator head these can sometimes have their lead unplugged and a new head put in place - if you can unplug the lead take the head into your local builders suppliers or plumbing suppliers and they will have a replacement.

If you can't unplug the lead from the head you will have to disconnect the wire and get a new head & lead -- again take it to the builders/plumbers suppliers and ask for a replacement. Ask if they have a replacement head that has the plugin/out lead as if it happens in the future that you're replacing that head there is no disconnecting, just plug & replace.

Check the action of the valve - it should turn easily if you gently grip it with a pliers, gently enough that you don't dig into the surface of the metal - if you have to do that to turn it it's jammed and you need to replace the whole lot.

If it turns freely and unless you have some really oddball, years out of stock valve you should not need to take the valve off the pipework, I'd be highly cynical of someone pushing to do this and would get a 2nd opinion

Some makes mix&match - I remember putting a Sauter head onto (I think!) a honeywell body years ago for an elderly friend of mine.

powerstation

Hi Folks,

Thank you all for the prompt response and good advice.

On JohnnieK's advice I checked my documents and found the boiler was indeed under warranty. I called Davies who were very prompt in organizing Oil & Gas Services to repair the boiler this morning. The Engineer who came over was very skilled, he determined the ignition unit was faulty and replaced it. The boiler's working perfectly now.

quietsailor, thank you for the advice. I found that the valve lever can be turned by hand. I can hear the actuator motor turn and the light comes on when its switched on, the valve coupling on the bottom of the actuator turns. So I thought I'd attach it & see if it would work.

The actuator is wired to a thermostat attached to the cylinder. I presume the thermostat is supposed to switch off the actuator, but turning the thermostat dial on low doesn't put out the light on the actuator.

Could it be that the actuator is okay and the thermostat is faulty? How would I check the thermostat? Please see the attached pictures.

Regards,
Leo

quietsailor

quietsailor, thank you for the advice. I found that the valve lever can be turned by hand. I can hear the actuator motor turn and the light comes on when its switched on, the valve coupling on the bottom of the actuator turns. So I thought I'd attach it & see if it would work.

The actuator is wired to a thermostat attached to the cylinder. I presume the thermostat is supposed to switch off the actuator, but turning the thermostat dial on low doesn't put out the light on the actuator.

Could it be that the actuator is okay and the thermostat is faulty? How would I check the thermostat? Please see the attached pictures.

Regards,
Leo[/QUOTE]


Hi leo,

When you opened the valve manually with the actuator attached did the boiler fire? If it did the thermostat is ok and the actuator is the problem. If it didn't - it could be the thermostat OR something else in the wiring. Usually the problem is the thermostat so before the wiring through the house.

how electrically confident are you? your at the point of needing to get a multimeter and test the switching ability of the thermostat. If you're not comfortable around electricity your best bet is to get a friend or a professional (plumber) to look at it

You need the "beep" function of the multimeter - when you put the two leads of the meter to the ends of a wire the meter will beep if the there is no break in the circuit. So what you need to do is open the cover of the thermostat --- there should be 3 terminals, one earth and the other two are the circuit terminals --- and put the 2 leads on the circuit terminals in there. Twist the thermostat all the way anticlockwise* and test, usually that's the position that turns off the heat as soon as possible ie cold water

Now turn the dial fully clockwise* and test again. You should have a beep at one dial position and not the other. If you have 2 beeps or 2 no beeps (probably this) then you have a problem.

I don't know if you've ever seen a wiring diagram for these valves before? I've attached one for a 3 zone system but regardless of 1,2,3 or more zones the principle is the same --
a signal for a zone comes out of the clock to the thermostat, if the room/tank is too hot the thermostat switch is open and prevents the signal from going any further, if the room/tank is too cool the thermostat switch is in the closed position and the signal carries onto the actuator where it operates the motor (blue and brown leads @ the yellow actuator).
Assuming the room/tank is cold the signal carries on to the actuator the motor turns it opens the physical valve AND it closes the switch for the boiler power circuit. This is what gives the electricity to the boiler to fire. The reason for the second (boiler power) circuit is that the clock, usually digital these days, doesn't have to carry the higher amps the boiler needs to work, just the lower amps that is needed to operate the actuator.

This is only a wiring diagram so you can't see the plumbing valve under the actuator

Trabejo

Can you be more specific pal?

powerstation

Hi quietsailor,

Thank you for the guidance on how to test the thermostat and for taking the time to share the wiring diagram. Yes, I am good with circuits, and will attempt to open the thermostat this weekend to check for continuity.

> When you opened the valve manually with the actuator attached did the boiler fire?

The actuator is controlled by a switch just above the timer. When this switched on, the actuator opens the valve and the boiler fires shortly after. I presume this was due to the boiler sensing a drop in water temperature as the cylinder is now added to the system.

I previously thought that the timer in the hotpress only controls the immersion rod in the cylinder, and I wasn't sure how the boiler would fit into the equation.

Based on your explanation and the the wiring diagram, it looks like the timer is the "controller", and determines when the heat source reaches the cylinder, where the heat source may either be:
- The boiler feed, or
- The immersion rod

Is my understanding correct? Also, provided that the timer is active, is the immersion rod supposed to automatically activate when the actuator is off?

Regards,
Leo

Although Quitesailors post is very informative I'm not a fan of posts that advise taking covers off components but have no mention of isolating the power to make safe the circuit.

Your immersion timer is a timed on/off switch and has no impact on your gas heating/hot water controls.

quietsailor

gary71 wrote: »

Although Quitesailors post is very informative I'm not a fan of posts that advise taking covers off components but have no mention of isolating the power to make safe the circuit.

Your immersion timer is a timed on/off switch and has no impact on your gas heating/hot water controls.

You really can't win on this forum - one person complains a post is too long, another complains that I left out words ie that it's not long enough
With respect -
a) I wrote if the OP isn't comfortable with it don't do it,
b) If they're confident enough to use a multimeter and know what a "Beep" test is they'll also be trying a live/no live signal test & you can't test to see if there is a live signal WITHOUT a live signal.

If the OP is comfortable with testing circuits they'll know to (in order) isolate power, remove the cover, check the wires are wired properly, bring the power live, check for signal.
If the OP isn't comfortable with testing circuits then it doesn't matter as they won't do anything.

quietsailor

powerstation wrote: »

Hi quietsailor,
Based on your explanation and the the wiring diagram, it looks like the timer is the "controller", and determines when the heat source reaches the cylinder, where the heat source may either be:
- The boiler feed, or
- The immersion rod

Is my understanding correct? Also, provided that the timer is active, is the immersion rod supposed to automatically activate when the actuator is off?

Regards,
Leo

That would be.........unusual........... Normally they are two separate and distinct entities.
The boiler would be your main heat source, controlled by the timer, thermostat and actuator valves.
The immersion, with a separate timer would be backup -
1)for when the boiler is not being used, usually when it is broken down
2)in houses where there are no actuator valves people shut off the boiler during hot weather and need the immersion to heat water for a shower - otherwise they heat the whole house in order to heat the cylinder.

For my idle curiosity can you put up photos of all the switches, controls valves etc

HOWEVER even though I've written you long posts about diagnosing this yourself, at this stage you should get a plumber in - preferably an older plumber that would have a lot of experience under their belt as what you've described sounds very, very different to the norm

The reason I said that is if;
1. your comfortable enough around these circuits to test them and
2. then have looked at the wiring to come to the conclusion that one timer is wired to both immersion AND boiler then it's very different to the norm, any I've dealt with have completely separate circuits for boilers and immersions

quietsailor

quietsailor wrote: »

You really can't win on this forum - one person complains a post is too long, another complains that I left out words ie that it's not long enough
With respect -
a) I wrote if the OP isn't comfortable with it don't do it,
b) If they're confident enough to use a multimeter and know what a "Beep" test is they'll also be trying a live/no live signal test & you can't test to see if there is a live signal WITHOUT a live signal.

If the OP is comfortable with testing circuits they'll know to (in order) isolate power, remove the cover, check the wires are wired properly, bring the power live, check for signal.
If the OP isn't comfortable with testing circuits then it doesn't matter as they won't do anything.

Electrical safety is a very very important thing, there is a process when working safely on heating system controls.

I once was giving advise to a Chap on the phone who had a multi meter that could go beep beep, the first I knew of him not isolating the mains was when I heard a girl like screech in my ear coming from the now electrocuted fruitloop on the other end.

I know from experience if you going to give any advice the boring bits need to be added and never skipped for the sake of those who don't know how stupid they are.

quietsailor

gary71 wrote: »

Electrical safety is a very very important thing, there is a process when working safely on heating system controls.

I once was giving advise to a Chap on the phone who had a multi meter that could go beep beep, the first I knew of him not isolating the mains was when I heard a girl like screech in my ear coming from the now electrocuted fruitloop on the other end.

I know from experience if you going to give any advice the boring bits need to be added and never skipped for the sake of those who don't know how stupid they are.

Ouch - for his sake anyway - I see your point

powerstation

Thanks for your concerns quietsailor & gary71, of course I knew to switch off the power, and test the junction box for power, before opening up the thermostat & disconnecting it for testing it.

I initially got a continuous beep on both end positions of the dial. When I tested again, and turned the dial, I noticed a distinct "click" which wasn't there before, and the beep stopped. It may have been jammed, and un-jammed during the test.

After a couple of tests, I concluded the thermostat was working and reinstated it. It now switches off the actuator when the set temp is reached! If I do find it doesn't perform again in the future, I will replace it.

It's amazing that I did not have to change the thermostat or the actuator!

You're right about the timer & immersion, they are as you have described - it's a separate system with no link to the boiler-fed heating.

quietsailor, I'll update this thread with a pic of the system.

Thank you for the sound advise and help. All is well again!

quietsailor

Hi leo, sorry to take so long to reply - I've not had good internet access for a few days. I'm glad you got sorted, even gladder that it cost you nothing :cool:

powerstation wrote: »

Thanks for your concerns quietsailor & gary71, of course I knew to switch off the power, and test the junction box for power, before opening up the thermostat & disconnecting it for testing it.

I initially got a continuous beep on both end positions of the dial. When I tested again, and turned the dial, I noticed a distinct "click" which wasn't there before, and the beep stopped. It may have been jammed, and un-jammed during the test.

After a couple of tests, I concluded the thermostat was working and reinstated it. It now switches off the actuator when the set temp is reached! If I do find it doesn't perform again in the future, I will replace it.

It's amazing that I did not have to change the thermostat or the actuator!

You're right about the timer & immersion, they are as you have described - it's a separate system with no link to the boiler-fed heating.

quietsailor, I'll update this thread with a pic of the system.

Thank you for the sound advise and help. All is well again!

powerstation

Hi quitesailor,

Please don't be, I'm glad you're back online.

I've been late in posting the pictures of the hotpress and controls, please see attached. This is the whole system in perfect working order!

Thanks,
Leo