Media Broadcasting

OBaoghil.7

I don't know if this would be classed as "politics" so my apologies if this post needs to be elsewhere and if it's a bit long winded.. My thoughts are about TV broadcasting. When we moved from analogue to digital a few years ago my belief was that the government had a great opportunity to do something very worthwhile and substantial for the everyday folk. When the UK carried out the conversion, they not only moved the regular programs of ITV, BBC, Ch's 4 & 5 etc to the new service, they also brought in the 140+ free satellite channels to the their service as one package. So why did we not do the same. Why did the Government restrict the viewing to the limited channels we have on Saorview? Why did they not copy the UK model (as we do in many other worthwhile situations) and give us freesat as well?
The reason for this question is that once again I find that the tv coverage of an Irish (National team) sporting occasion is being covered live by SKY and only highlights will be shown much later. Is there something here that we don't know about. Did SKY have some influence on how the conversion from analogue to digital was managed? was there any representation or even on the side discussions with SKY and politicians?
We now have the "UTC" channel. So what! it just appears to be UK's ITV which is available on Freesat. Homes now have either SKY which they pay for or Saorview. Some have freesat meaning we have 2 aerials when we could have just had one. Had someone in government wanted the people to have something valuable and substantial for free, this was their chance.
I know SKY could have had the rights (by competive bidding) to cover the game today but this situation isn''t just about SKY. There are many sports (which include Irish men and women) and other programs that we would have enjoyed as a nation but unless you have an additional Sat dish to your digital saorview antenna, you cannot enjoy it. Most TV's have a built in tuner now without recording facility. So you can record your freesat as they usually have twin tuners but it means you cannot record Saorview channels.
There just doesn't seem to have been any thought about this and the current sition is, IMHO, a mess.
Does anyone know how the digital conversion was managed and by who?

icdg

You're asking a lot of questions there, and it is a very, very long story. Planning for digital terrestrial television here began at the same time as in the UK. As was initially the case in the UK, the government looked upon DTT as a prospect for a new pay television platform. The first proposal was for a joint RTE-private sector project to be called Digico. After a few false starts on that one, the Government changed its mind. A private sector company called Its TV, which was composed of mainly ex-RTE executives, approached the Government and nearly did a deal but a combination of cold feet on both sides and lack of finance on Its TV side hampered things. In the mean, ITV Digital had collapsed, and the future of DTT looked bleak (no one could have foreseen the success of Freeview and Freesat at that stage).

The Government never really (and even now has never really) abandoned its mistaken view that DTT was a pay-TV platform primarily. It auctioned the licence again in 2008 and in the end all three bidders for the licence were consecutively offered it and turned it down. In the interim, Sky and the cable companies (now UPC/Virgin Media) had launched pay-TV services with hundreds of channels. There was and still is no gap in the market for a pay-TV service that could only offer 40 channels max. It was at that time that Saorview (and it's practically unknown satellite cousin Saorsat) were dreamt up. Note that though Saorview shares a similar name to its UK counterpart, it only offers a fraction of the service. This is because the Government is careful not to position it as a pay-TV alternative, just as a "last resort" solution for those unwilling and/or unable to pay for TV. Also I believe it still wants to auction the remaining multiplexes, but that ship has well and truly sailed now. Freesat is available here, and that has taken the position that Freeview does in the UK market. The accepted view now is if you don't want to pay a subscription you should get Saorview for the Irish channels abd Freesat for everything else (but the latter isn't always an option).

Did Sky have an influence? No. It was just mishandled from the beginning. If you are referring to today's rugby match, well the long and short of it is that it's a friendly, and there is no justification for including it as an major television event with protected status. Otherwise, where do you stop.

OBaoghil.7

Many thanks for your comprehensive response. You have explained a great deal for me. As you would expect there are a few points that I am still concerned about. I understand that todays game is a "friendly" but no doubt those who are passionate about the game or Ireland would argue that there is no such thing as a friendly game. You indicate the Government has always been looking for a commercial deal. My point is why? My whole point has been that an opportinity has been missed. In the UK all of the UK channels and the 140 Freeview channels come at the expense of a TV licence. To get the same here, we have to utilise 2 different systems.

ancapailldorcha

Thread moved to the Broadcasting forum. Potential posters please note the change in charter.

STB.

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

Many thanks for your comprehensive response. You have explained a great deal for me. As you would expect there are a few points that I am still concerned about. I understand that todays game is a "friendly" but no doubt those who are passionate about the game or Ireland would argue that there is no such thing as a friendly game. You indicate the Government has always been looking for a commercial deal. My point is why? My whole point has been that an opportinity has been missed. In the UK all of the UK channels and the 140 Freeview channels come at the expense of a TV licence. To get the same here, we have to utilise 2 different systems.

The 140 Freeview channels in the UK do not come at the expense of the TV Licence. Freeview is the terrestrial end. There are 50 odd channels on it. Freesat is the satellite version, only it holds more channels. I presume that is where you are getting the 140 figure.

In the UK only the Public Service Broadcasters (PSBs) receive money from the TV Licence. The other channels you are talking about are commercial stations who pay to be held on the Astra 28.2 footprint.

In the UK the population is 66 million. The PSB's receive the licence fee and there is quite a lot to go around in comparison to little old Ireland where the population is less than a tenth of that, so to compare the income streams for both is unfair. That means there is less money to pitch for sports rights, programming etc. It is also the reason why RTE and TG4 have dual funding from adverts.

Because of the nature of the Freesat platform held on 28.2E, it costs a lot of money to be free in the clear as the satellite footprint extend over the UK and Ireland and into Europe. The people selling rights to sport/tv programming know this and you must remain within your jurisdiction unless you have the money to pitch for the UK market as well.

As regards the friendly, it is the IRFU who would have sold any rights to these friendly games. The Rugby Federation agree the TV rights for UK, Ireland etc.

OBaoghil.7

"The 140 Freeview channels in the UK do not come at the expense of the TV Licence. Freeview is the terrestrial end. There are 50 odd channels on it. Freesat is the satellite version, only it holds more channels. I presume that is where you are getting the 140 figure."

I did mean Freeview. Freeview is the Digital end. Freeview is received on the digital aerial in the UK just as Saorview is here. The BBC are the body that receives the lincence fee revenue. When the UK converted, as mentioned already, it brought together the UK channels and the freesat channels into the home as freeview. There was no ioncrease of licence fee in the UK when the digital conversion took place. Had it cost the BBC more to add FreeSat channels (which is what they are) they would have increased fees to cover additional costs. Why, if freesat is free, couldn't we have the irish progams and the Freesat channels in the same way. I dont' want to get into any debate on fees etc
I understand who has sold the rights. My point was not specifically about Irish Rugby but about any national sport or interest. I am not saying national sport should only be on Saorview but as mentioned if freesat was available through the digital aerial with soarview we could see more. There has been Irish athletes competing in China and to see them I have watched BBC on Freesat which I am happy to do but I do so on a stand alone system separate to Saorview.
The current system is mix of Different systems and can only assist SKY and others in being here. Hence my original question regarding our relationship with SKY?

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds as if you're asking why Saorview doesn't have more channels than it does. There's a few factors at play here. One is that the channel has to pay to access the DTT network. TV3 wanted a free ride and as such the rules were changed so that everyone would be charged a share of the total multiplex bandwidth. So if you had only two channels on one mux, they'd have to share the cost for the whole mux even though they're only using part of it (maybe I've worded this slightly wrong but it's along those lines). The more broadcasters on Saorview, the lower the fees are for everyone, but it seems that nobody is willing to take the next step. HD is prohibitively expensive at the moment but it would be more affordable if everyone jumped on board.

Regarding UK broadcaters on Saorview, they'd also have to pay carriage fees and they most likely do not see it as viable for such a small market. For the broadcaster, Saorview is a lot more expensive than satellite.

Elmo

Ireland was late to DTT (Digital Terrestial Television) There were serveral attempts to start DTT in the 2000s and finally the failed Commerical DTT sell off by the BAI which resulted in nothing.

The UK was early with DTT and it began as pay service and fail to attract an audience as Sky and Cable operators in the Pay TV area began to provide free STB with their product something a Pay DTT service could not provide. And since DTT had less capacity to Satellite and Cable operators, their competitors could added more and more channels plus a free STB. Initially the service was known as ON digital and then ITV Digital it closed in 2002 and was replaced by FreeView.

In the early 2000s RTÉ were talking about selling RTÉ NL (now 2RN) however they could not find a buyer. They had also wanted to retain their share in Cablelink, however were forced to sell their 25% by the government. (And there is more to that as RTÉ were forced to sell cablelink to Telecom Eireann in the 1990s, which caused Rodgers cable to move away from the company).

As the 2000s progressed Irish DTT was put on the long finger. With the EU decision to DSO/ASO by 31/12/2012. Thus Saorview launched without a Pay DTT partner. Farrell Corcoran in his book "RTÉ and the Globalisation of TV" stated that at a meeting of EU officials Irish Civil servants pointed to the 80% of the population who had Sky and UPC as part of their non-existent DSO/ASO/DTT.

Ireland is a small market is has competition from UK broadcasters with 30 providing opt-out advertising, accounting for at least 15% of all advertising revenue.

TV3 had no interest in Saorview and repeatly state it costs too much. Though they did initially suggest plans to provide TV3 HD, TV3 +1, 3Kids and 3Classics on the service. TG4 had opted against providing TG4+1 and Cula4. The Irish Film Board channel is not happening though it is in the Broadcasting Act 2009 and well the Oireachtas are happy to pay Sky for their encrypted service on a Pay TV service.

Unlike Saorview Freeview is a consortium made up of Arqiva, BBC, ITV, Channel 5, Channel 4 and Sky. The network is provided by Arqiva after it was sold by the BBC in 1997. I beleive it also took control of old ITV regional transmitters. It holds a monopoly like 2RN.

TV3 objected to the setting up of RTÉ NEWS NOW, RTÉ PLUS (AKA RTÉ3), RTÉ2HD, RTÉ ONE +1, UTV Ireland, RTÉjr and RTÉjr's move from RTÉ2. They refuse to talk to 2RN about TV3HD or TV3 +1, but state publically that those channels are available to Saorview.

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

In the early 2000s RTÉ were talking about selling RTÉ NL (now 2RN) however they could not find a buyer.

There were 3 final bidders for a 68% stake in the network in Apr 2002 but when the sale was eventually cancelled in Oct 2002 the potential price which would be paid for the transmission network has slipped significantly. The value placed on the network during the sale process ranged between €60 and €127 million but by the end of the process the value had dropped to €20-30 million. The low bids together the failure of "ItsTV" to secure the DTT licence resulted in the network sale being cancelled.

Two of the bidders were venture capital group Apax Capital Partners and France Telecom subsidiary TDF.

After the failed sale, the network division was spun off in 2003 as a separate wholly owned subsidiary of RTÉ - RTÉ Transmission Network Limited.

L1011

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

I did mean Freeview.

You've never used it if you think there's 140 channels on it.

dublinman1990

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

"The 140 Freeview channels in the UK do not come at the expense of the TV Licence. Freeview is the terrestrial end. There are 50 odd channels on it. Freesat is the satellite version, only it holds more channels. I presume that is where you are getting the 140 figure."

I did mean Freeview. Freeview is the Digital end. Freeview is received on the digital aerial in the UK just as Saorview is here. The BBC are the body that receives the lincence fee revenue. When the UK converted, as mentioned already, it brought together the UK channels and the freesat channels into the home as freeview. There was no increase of licence fee in the UK when the digital conversion took place. Had it cost the BBC more to add FreeSat channels (which is what they are) they would have increased fees to cover additional costs. Why, if freesat is free, couldn't we have the irish programmes and the Freesat channels in the same way. I dont' want to get into any debate on fees etc I understand who has sold the rights. My point was not specifically about Irish Rugby but about any national sport or interest. I am not saying national sport should only be on Saorview but as mentioned if freesat was available through the digital aerial with soarview we could see more. There has been Irish athletes competing in China and to see them I have watched BBC on Freesat which I am happy to do but I do so on a stand alone system separate to Saorview. The current system is mix of Different systems and can only assist SKY and others in being here. Hence my original question regarding our relationship with SKY?

There is a whole lot of confusion about what you're posting here. I will try to make it as clear as I possibly can.

The first point is that Freesat from the UK is free for ROI viewers because they don't have to pay a BBC Licence Fee as they don't live in the UK. The position of Freesat channels are in the clear on 28.2; same satellite position as Sky in the UK btw.

Realistically it is impossible to have both Irish and Freesat channels on the same method of delivery while going FTA on Satellite. It is cheaper for Irish broadcasters to restrict their programmes to a ROI audience as it is too expensive for them to rent a transponder on Astra.

On the other hand if certain broadcasters listed on Freesat, UPC or Sky wanted to go on Saorview more muxs will have to be started up if there was an agreement in place with the BAI and 2RN. But again the demand for viewers who have Saorview only in the ROI is a very small minority at roughly about 10%. The remaining 90% of Saorview viewers have it combined with Freesat/FTA combi Satellite boxes so they have the channels already at their convenience via a additional method of delivery namely their satellite dish.

Sky do have a relationship with their customers but it is not a very good one as they currently have the power to charge twice as much as Sky Subscriptions in the UK. The reason for this is that they are not regulated here in Ireland as they are very much so with Ofcom over there.

Also you may have gotten figures wrong for the number of Freesat channels. It's stated on their website that it has over 200 channels on their platform.

More Music

OP, are you mixing up Freeview and Freesat?

It's a very confusing post.

Anyway, who's going to pay to carry the UK channels on an Irish terrestrial system?

Elmo

More Music wrote: »

OP, are you mixing up Freeview and Freesat?

It's a very confusing post.

Anyway, who's going to pay to carry the UK channels on an Irish terrestrial system?

Yes we should have point out that Saorview, FreeSat and FreeView have carriage costs attached and that most pay TV channels get a cut of your subscription fee.