Unauthorised development on a garage conversion

terminator74

Went sale agreed on a property that has a garage conversion that was completed 20 years ago.

The garage conversion has no planning permission and our solicitor told us that we would ideally need an Architects Certificate stating the conversion was exempt from planning in its own right. The vendor is relying on the 7 year rule and not providing any more documentation on the conversion.

Our solicitor says that council cannot serve an enforcement notice in relation to the unauthorised development but the consequences are that we will have difficulty obtaining planning for any further development. If you wanted to further develop you would have to obtain retention permission and if granted comply with any conditions that would attach to that.(Potential penalties) Also we may experience difficulties in selling the property in the future. - It will most certainly need development. Not to mention that the bank may not qualify title.

Additionally this conversion has a front door facing the front of the property.Our Structural Eng. report stated at the time that this was a planning issue as it could be deemed a seperate domicile

The estate agents have stated they have sold many houses with similar set ups/7 year exceptions in the area and our solicitor is being risk adverse and over cautious?

Any advice – is this atypical or would you advise caution?

sydthebeat

terminator74 wrote: »

The vendor is relying on the 7 year rule and not providing any more documentation on the conversion.

the '7 year rule' does not mean the conversion has planing permission by default, it is still an unauthorized development and will remain so until regularised. all it means is the council cannot start enforcement action.

terminator74 wrote: »

Our solicitor says that council cannot serve an enforcement notice in relation to the unauthorised development but the consequences are that we will have difficulty obtaining planning for any further development. If you wanted to further develop you would have to obtain retention permission and if granted comply with any conditions that would attach to that.(Potential penalties)

completely correct.
you are not allowed make a valid planning application on a site where an unauthorised development exists. there can also be remortgaging issues as well.

terminator74 wrote: »

Additionally this conversion has a front door facing the front of the property.Our Structural Eng. report stated at the time that this was a planning issue as it could be deemed a seperate domicile

its either separate or its not.
why is the conversion not considered exempt?

terminator74 wrote: »

The estate agents have stated they have sold many houses with similar set ups/7 year exceptions in the area and our solicitor is being risk adverse and over cautious?

Any advice – is this atypical or would you advise caution?

estate agents will say anything to make a sale, they make more money by quick sales than they do by dragging a sale out.
Just becuase mistakes were made in the past doesnt mean its ok to make them again.

if you buy, you will then own the problem

do you want that?

the vendors should be made obtain retention permission, so that the product they are selling is 'clean'... it is not currently.

terminator74

thanks sydthebeat for your detailed response - very helpful.
this has made us question our decision and we are strongly considering backing out
re: the separate domicile question - the SE said it could be considered a separate domicile by planning even though it is not structurally separated from the house.

Calahonda52

terminator74 wrote: »

thanks sydthebeat for your detailed response - very helpful.
this has made us question our decision and we are strongly considering backing out
re: the separate domicile question - the SE said it could be considered a separate domicile by planning even though it is not structurally separated from the house.

Sale agreed subject to what conditions: can you back out without losing your deposit.?

You should have ur solicitor explain to the vendor that the site is contaminated planning wise so its either get retention or you walk.

Gumbo

terminator74 wrote: »

thanks sydthebeat for your detailed response - very helpful.
this has made us question our decision and we are strongly considering backing out
re: the separate domicile question - the SE said it could be considered a separate domicile by planning even though it is not structurally separated from the house.

Make an offer subject to retention permission being granted. I don't think the vendor will wait 2 months, but if you really want the house, worth a shot?

BryanF

terminator74 wrote: »

Went sale agreed on a property that has a garage conversion that was completed 20 years ago.

The garage conversion has no planning permission and our solicitor told us that we would ideally need an Architects Certificate stating the conversion was exempt from planning in its own right. The vendor is relying on the 7 year rule and not providing any more documentation on the conversion.

Our solicitor says that council cannot serve an enforcement notice in relation to the unauthorised development but the consequences are that we will have difficulty obtaining planning for any further development. If you wanted to further develop you would have to obtain retention permission and if granted comply with any conditions that would attach to that.(Potential penalties) Also we may experience difficulties in selling the property in the future. - It will most certainly need development. Not to mention that the bank may not qualify title.

Additionally this conversion has a front door facing the front of the property.Our Structural Eng. report stated at the time that this was a planning issue as it could be deemed a seperate domicile

The estate agents have stated they have sold many houses with similar set ups/7 year exceptions in the area and our solicitor is being risk adverse and over cautious?

Any advice – is this atypical or would you advise caution?

Have you had an eng/arch do a survey? your only looking at ~150/300€ Depending on whether a report is required.

How keen are you? If the answer is very, Get an arch to Walk away he site with you. Ordinarily I'd say the 'non compliance' is the vendors problem, but as the vendor is being a spanner, your choices are : be proactive or walk away.

I'm seeing this type of thing regularly, the banks have tightened up on the slightest grey area of planning, as have solicitors. Solicitors can't offer you much practical experience of planning/retention and dealing with a council therefore they can come across alarmist.

Typically a standard conversion from an attached garage to accommodation is not something to worry about. Retention is not difficult, but will take 3/4 months, and your looking at maybe 1k for drawings & planning fees - I'm not suggesting you get retention but any arch/eng worth their salt should be able to offer you an opinion based on a site visit.

Is it that the garage doesn't have a direct link/access to the house?

what has YOUR engineer stated as regards the original planning conditions? the common issues are entrance setback, road boundary lines, site lines, boundary treatments, and septic tanks/ waste treatment/ percolation.

terminator74

BryanF wrote: »

Have you had an eng/arch do a survey? your only looking at ~150/300€ Depending on whether a report is required.

Yes the structural engineers report noted that there were a few planning irregularities the most notable regarding the garage conversion 'the property now has an additional front door, the Planning Permission status of same will have to be confirmed'.

Is it that the garage doesn't have a direct link/access to the house? the garage does have a direct link to the house

what has YOUR engineer stated as regards the original planning conditions? the common issues are entrance setback, road boundary lines, site lines, boundary treatments, and septic tanks/ waste treatment/ percolation.

His key concern was about the presence of the door on the structure but in the report he detailed the following summary:

The vendors engineer/architect should confirm in writing the Planning Permission status of the property, providing current Certificates of Compliance for Planning Permission and Building Regulations. The house / property has received material changes and structural alterations since first constructed, including entrance gate widening!

An architect friend detailed the following:

If it were me I would establish whether any of the conditions or limitations are breached, and if not I would consider the extension to be exempted development and think no more about it.

The issues it raised are:

- Is the area of the garage greater than 40 sqm. No

- Are there other extensions to the original house? Yes - a kitchen extension was built at the back of the house about 20 years ago (which we plan to knock and extend out the whole length of the back of the house)

- Is the garage and subsequent conversion more than 1 story high? no

- Is any new window that has been added to the garage closer that 1 meter to the boundary or less than 11 meters from the boundary it faces there's a few issues here that the Structural Engineer pointed out. The conversion has a window and door, the latter is a planning violation as it may be considered a separate domicile. The window is very close to the boundary (no sure of exact distance) and the definitely less than 11 from the front of the house

Ultimately if we purchase this house we will be redeveloping this garage conversion as its currently serving no use but do not have the appetite for any extended or protracted dealings with planning or worse non granting of permission to develop,

BryanF

What is the floor area of the converted garage? If the total floor area when added to the kitchen extension is greater than 40msq then retention is required. Your arch friend should be able to determine this and based on the site and surrounding properties determine whether future extension and possible retention will be deemed ok by planning authority

JonathonS

I was in a similar position a couple of years ago, but as the seller. In the end I decided that every potential buyer would raise the same issue (no planning for a small porch built 25 years previously) so I went ahead and applied for retention PP which we got. The cost of getting an architectural technician to do the drawings and submit was reasonable, the only sting in the tail was the Local Authority Development Contribution which we had to stump up.