Aircoach....

Crumbs868

Driving a coach at 100ks while listening to an ipad at your ear. Disgraceful carry on. Suppose not surprising considering how they treat their drivers


http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/bus-driver-sacked-for-using-ipad-while-driving-at-100kmh-on-m50-31478170.html

LeinsterDub

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Driving a coach at 100ks while listening to an ipad at your ear. Disgraceful carry on. Suppose not surprising considering how they treat their drivers


http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/bus-driver-sacked-for-using-ipad-while-driving-at-100kmh-on-m50-31478170.html

I wouldn't care if his employer was the isis. There is no defending his actions

LXFlyer

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

aircoach states they have high safety standards and always puts the safety of passengers first.

puts drivers on 12 hour shifts........

eh just no.

Plenty of bus companies including Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have twelve hour shifts - but they all have a long break in the middle.

I'm not sure what your point is?

devnull

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Driving a coach at 100ks while listening to an ipad at your ear. Disgraceful carry on. Suppose not surprising considering how they treat their drivers

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/bus-driver-sacked-for-using-ipad-while-driving-at-100kmh-on-m50-31478170.html

Be happy that it's in the press because they dismissed him, From everything I read the company acted in the right way and acted fairly and took safety as their number one priority.

12 hour shifts are common in the industry, they are not 12 hour workings without a break, they normally have one large break or 2 big ones in-between.

For example, the old Aircoach Cork Rota before the express service had 11 hour shifts.

Example:
Leave Dublin Airport 6.30am
Leave Dublin City 7.00am
Arrive Urlingford 9.00am
BREAK
Depart Urlingford 9.15am
Arrive Cork 10.50am
BREAK
Depart Cork 1.00pm
Arrive Urlingford 3.00pm
BREAK
Depart Urlingford 3.15pm
Arrive Dublin City 4.50pm
Arrive Dublin Airport 5.20pm.

That's an 11 hour shift almost but under 8.5 hours of it are driving.

Cookie_Monster

Dublin Bus have had CCTV on board for years and years but we've not heard about all the drivers they've sacked for having books, newspapers, mobile phones or portable radios (all of which I've personally seen at least once). And that's just DB, never mind all the other commercial truck or bus companies you see daily where drivers are reading / have phones / having a smoke.

While it's good to see it being dealt with in this case it does seem a little bit random and not par for the course.

Crumbs868

I clearly said it was disgraceful carry on from the driver.

My point is air coach are forever in front of the employment appeals tribunal(EAT). Stinks that they have zero respect for their employees and want to fire everyone for anything hence why their employees always appeal as so many of their colleagues would have won compo. Also sounds like employees are not happy with the management style where it's all about the bottom line even resorting to joining a union against management wishes

Plenty of bigger private coach companies who don't have these Industrial relations problems. It's the mentality of management under pressure from their overseas bosses to deliver every penny as they thought they would swan in and show the Irish how to run a coach network. Very similar to how Eddie stobart and other overseas transport providers are run(also in and out of the EAT)

devnull

Crumbs868 wrote: »

My point is air coach are forever in front of the employment appeals tribunal(EAT). Stinks that they have zero respect for their employees and want to fire everyone for anything hence why their employees always appeal as so many of their colleagues would have won compo.

Do you have anything to back this up or is it just wildfire allegations like you made in the past?

Also sounds like employees are not happy with the management style where it's all about the bottom line even resorting to joining a union against management wishes/

Unions have been recognised in Aircoach for a long time now, SIPTU have been there for ages. However there has never been a strike or even the hint of one, so it can't be that bad?

Plenty of bigger private coach companies who don't have these Industrial relations problems. It's the mentality of management under pressure from their overseas bosses to deliver every penny as they thought they would swan in and show the Irish how to run a coach network. Very similar to how Eddie stobart and other overseas transport providers are run(also in and out of the EAT)

There's that chip on your shoulder about the British again.

devnull

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Dublin Bus have had CCTV on board for years and years but we've not heard about all the drivers they've sacked for having books, newspapers, mobile phones or portable radios (all of which I've personally seen at least once). And that's just DB, never mind all the other commercial truck or bus companies you see daily where drivers are reading / have phones / having a smoke.

CCTV Cameras on Dublin Bus cannot be used as part of a disciplinary process.

Union rules (which I disagree with in this instance)

Crumbs868

devnull wrote: »

Do you have anything to back this up or is it just wildfire allegations like you made in the past?

Google it(you will need to exclude the last few days results). Google / official EAT website does not lie

Btw do you work for them? Very passionate defense of them

devnull wrote: »

There's that chip on your shoulder about the British again.

And you are accusing me of wild accusations! I've worked with / for enough global transport companies to know how they work. It's all about the bottom line being run by accountants, employees come last. Hence why we rarely see innovation unless it means more profit

punisher5112

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Dublin Bus have had CCTV on board for years and years but we've not heard about all the drivers they've sacked for having books, newspapers, mobile phones or portable radios (all of which I've personally seen at least once). And that's just DB, never mind all the other commercial truck or bus companies you see daily where drivers are reading / have phones / having a smoke.

While it's good to see it being dealt with in this case it does seem a little bit random and not par for the course.

Show me where a fm radio or any portable player is illegal while driving a vehicle.

Oh and of course not in any drivers hand.

I have seen tour coaches do the same.

I have seen many many car drivers doing same and worse.

Reading papers, shaving, emails, Facebook, eating bowl of cereal, getting dressed, driving with knees, doing nails, make up etc etc and this is is all car users.

devnull

And you are accusing me of wild accusations! I've worked with / for enough global transport companies to know how they work. it's all about the bottom line being run by accountants, employees come last.

As opposed to state companies where the employees come first and the customers come last?

Hence why we rarely see innovation unless it means more profit.

Of course a business has to make money, else they go bust, or cease to exist if they keep making losses for long enough. Everyone bar communists know this.

I know that may not occur to people in the public sector bubble, but it's basic economics. The fact is that private operators in general in Ireland have innovated where the state companies have not.

Are they perfect? Of course not? Are state companies perfect? Of course they are not either!

devnull

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Google it(you will need to exclude the last few days results). Google / official EAT website does not lie.

Show me a link. Come on.

Maybe they had good reasons for dismissing then?

Or do you think that a company should not dismiss staff who flout safety because it might make the company look bad and instead wait for a serious incident to occur?

Btw do you work for them? Very passionate defense of them

I don't work for them, I'm just a user of public transport. Do you work in the public sector or a state company?

devnull

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Google it(you will need to exclude the last few days results). Google / official EAT website does not lie

Two cases in 8 years:
https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/search/?decisions=1&nameofparty=Aircoach

With that in mind I'd be very careful what else you say on the topic in future as else you could land yourself in some serious hot water by coming on here and making false statements that could damage a company.

BuffyBot

Crumbs868 wrote: »

I clearly said it was disgraceful carry on from the driver.

My point is air coach are forever in front of the employment appeals tribunal(EAT). Stinks that they have zero respect for their employees and want to fire everyone for anything hence why their employees always appeal as so many of their colleagues would have won compo. Also sounds like employees are not happy with the management style where it's all about the bottom line even resorting to joining a union against management wishes

Plenty of bigger private coach companies who don't have these Industrial relations problems. It's the mentality of management under pressure from their overseas bosses to deliver every penny as they thought they would swan in and show the Irish how to run a coach network. Very similar to how Eddie stobart and other overseas transport providers are run(also in and out of the EAT)

I think you may need to a) watch what random claims you post up, and only post such things backed up by genuine facts from a verifiable source in future (as should all posters) and b) on a more individual level, have some sauce for that chip, because it's bloody huge.

CountingCrows

devnull wrote: »

CCTV Cameras on Dublin Bus cannot be used as part of a disciplinary process.

Union rules (which I disagree with in this instance)

:eek: What a joke of a country we live in.

devnull

CountingCrows wrote: »

:eek: What a joke of a country we live in.

I don't know if it's still true, but it was in the past.

punisher5112

They have no problem forwarding footage for the boys in blue so don't worry people db drivers don't get away with it.

As a matter of fact its one job you can not sneeze without being filmed by cctv or commuters and they are always watching.

devnull

Did it recently change then?

Because I read somewhere on here before that it was not allowed because it was considered nannying and excess monitoring of staff, same reasons why there was a dispute about the Drivegreen Software?

thevinylword

Is having an earphone in any different to having a radio at full blast in terms of hearing traffic around?

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

Did it recently change then?

Because I read somewhere on here before that it was not allowed because it was considered nannying and excess monitoring of staff, same reasons why there was a dispute about the Drivegreen Software?

What you have heard is hear say.

Company have policy in place and Gardai prosecute if deemed suitable for any case they are informed of and can use cctv.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

What you have heard is hear say.

Company have policy in place and Gardai prosecute if deemed suitable for any case they are informed of and can use cctv.

But what about cases that do not involve the Garda,

For example, someone drives unsafe, and a passenger reports it to the company,, can CCTV footage be used against them then?

foggy_lad

punisher5112 wrote: »

They have no problem forwarding footage for the boys in blue so don't worry people db drivers don't get away with it.

As a matter of fact its one job you can not sneeze without being filmed by cctv or commuters and they are always watching.

Wasn't the cctv brought in initially for safety of drivers? If drivers are doing nothing wrong they have nothing to fear.

thevinylword wrote: »

Is having an earphone in any different to having a radio at full blast in terms of hearing traffic around?

Having two earphones might be illegal as it would stop the driver hearing warning sounds and other road noises.

devnull wrote: »

But what about cases that do not involve the Garda,

For example, someone drives unsafe, and a passenger reports it to the company,, can CCTV footage be used against them then?

AFAIK they will watch the footage to confirm a passengers/complainants version(that they are not some crackpot who makes multiple spurious complaints) but will not use it in the complaint.

punisher5112

CCTV was mainly installed due to claims.

Injury claims and also collisions and so on.

It is also for to look after the bus as its property and worth a lot of money.
It is an amazing addition to have and ids there for said above and also added security for passengers, drivers, staff and anyone else around a vehicle as there are many cameras on board.

The aircoach driver was mad to do what he did but I have seen a lot worse been done.

Gardai enforce traffic law and it is up to them who is in line for a conviction.

If a company such as aircoach deem the issue to be what it was they were right to do what they did but one thing at least was that he did not have others on board at the time.

I do not use any hand held device while driving any vehicle because its not safe and also it could be that 1 time a pedestrian steps out or a dodgy driver plants on the brakes and you are not fully concentrating on job in hand.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

Be happy that it's in the press because they dismissed him, From everything I read the company acted in the right way and acted fairly and took safety as their number one priority.

12 hour shifts are common in the industry, they are not 12 hour workings without a break, they normally have one large break or 2 big ones in-between.

For example, the old Aircoach Cork Rota before the express service had 11 hour shifts.

Example:
Leave Dublin Airport 6.30am
Leave Dublin City 7.00am
Arrive Urlingford 9.00am
BREAK
Depart Urlingford 9.15am
Arrive Cork 10.50am
BREAK
Depart Cork 1.00pm
Arrive Urlingford 3.00pm
BREAK
Depart Urlingford 3.15pm
Arrive Dublin City 4.50pm
Arrive Dublin Airport 5.20pm.

That's an 11 hour shift almost but under 8.5 hours of it are driving.

On your example, it includes 2, 15 minute breaks if the bus is running late does the driver still get the 15 minute breaks, are they actual breaks ie away from the bus or are they periods for him to ready the bus for the return journey ?

Again on the larger break is it away from the bus, where is it ? is there facilities to get a meal, use the toilet, actually rest ?

A lot of companies get away with describing waiting periods as "breaks" when they are nothing of the sort.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

CCTV Cameras on Dublin Bus cannot be used as part of a disciplinary process.

Union rules (which I disagree with in this instance)

This is not the case.

Just as with the Aircoach situation,you would need to be familiar with the relevant company's Disciplinary & Grievance procedures,before making a statement as definitive as the above.

The use of CCTV footage,relevant to any D & G procedures is covered under several different headings, and governed by the individual incident.

Whilst CCTV has assumed a defining role in modern life,it remains an Aid to to operation,rather than an end.

As an aside,the term "Union Rules" in this case,may be a misnomer.

There may be some confusion between,Terms & Conditions of Employment which exist between an Employer and Employee,and Management - Worker Agreements,covering operational matters.

In the case of large employers,such Agreements represent the most effective way of structuring and ordering the Operational aspects of the relevant business.

In the case of Dublin Bus,the Trades Unions do NOT make Operational Rules.

jimmycrackcorm

If I'm reading this case correctly then I think Aircoach might have gone too far in saving the driver. If he was traveling back to the depot with no passengers then punishment wouldn't fit the crime.

I'm not condoning the drivers actions by any means but to make a comparison; If the Gardai catch you using a mobile device then it's a fine and penalty points, you don't lose your job over it.

devnull

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If I'm reading this case correctly then I think Aircoach might have gone too far in saving the driver. If he was traveling back to the depot with no passengers then punishment wouldn't fit the crime.

Because all of the other people on the M50's life do not matter?

I'm not condoning the drivers actions by any means but to make a comparison; If the Gardai catch you using a mobile device then it's a fine and penalty points, you don't lose your job over it.

That depends if your job is driving for a living.

devnull

cdebru wrote: »

On your example, it includes 2, 15 minute breaks if the bus is running late does the driver still get the 15 minute breaks, are they actual breaks ie away from the bus or are they periods for him to ready the bus for the return journey ?

Again on the larger break is it away from the bus, where is it ? is there facilities to get a meal, use the toilet, actually rest ?

The 15 mins were away from the bus and they also served as a passenger toilet break. The facilities of Pierce Kavanagh depot were available to staff I believe.

The 2hr 10 mins break at the Cork end were away from the bus as well, the bus were packed up in an area where some facilities are provided. I don't know what they are. The breaks for drivers starting in Cork are provided at the Dublin depot.

I don't have exact details and these were only correct in the past, I hav eno idea what the rosters look like these days.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is not the case.

Just as with the Aircoach situation,you would need to be familiar with the relevant company's Disciplinary & Grievance procedures,before making a statement as definitive as the above.

The use of CCTV footage,relevant to any D & G procedures is covered under several different headings, and governed by the individual incident.

Whilst CCTV has assumed a defining role in modern life,it remains an Aid to to operation,rather than an end.

As an aside,the term "Union Rules" in this case,may be a misnomer.

There may be some confusion between,Terms & Conditions of Employment which exist between an Employer and Employee,and Management - Worker Agreements,covering operational matters.

In the case of large employers,such Agreements represent the most effective way of structuring and ordering the Operational aspects of the relevant business.

In the case of Dublin Bus,the Trades Unions do NOT make Operational Rules.

Simple question - if a Dublin Bus driver is caught doing something that is against company policy on CCTV which is seen by another staff member, can said staff member be subject to disciplinary action.

A simple yes or no answer would be appreciated.

foggy_lad

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If I'm reading this case correctly then I think Aircoach might have gone too far in saving the driver. If he was traveling back to the depot with no passengers then punishment wouldn't fit the crime.

I'm not condoning the drivers actions by any means but to make a comparison; If the Gardai catch you using a mobile device then it's a fine and penalty points, you don't lose your job over it.

But he was caught by the company who have more stringent rules about mobile devices and he was also shown to not have proper control of the bus on a number of occasions when both hands were off the wheel, on occasion saw him steering the bus with his elbow! If a Garda saw all that it would not be a fine and points but a summons for driving without due care and attention or other serious charges which would could lead to a disqualification

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

Simple question - if a Dublin Bus driver is caught doing something that is against company policy on CCTV which is seen by another staff member, can said staff member be subject to disciplinary action.

A simple yes or no answer would be appreciated.

Why is there so much interest in db ?

Is this not aircoach.

I always wonder why no matter what it comes back to oh the db drivers.

Db drivers are among the most highly trained.

If a car driver was doing this I wouldn't be surprised if it came up about db drivers.

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

Why is there so much interest in db ?

Is this not aircoach.

I always wonder why no matter what it comes back to oh the db drivers.

Db drivers are among the most highly trained.

If a car driver was doing this I wouldn't be surprised if it came up about db drivers.

Thanks for not answering the question.

devnull

Here a driver claims that CCTV cannot be used as a disciplinary measure unless the Garda are involved:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56419439&postcount=8

Does this policy still exist? Id so, would that mean if the same situation happened in Dublin Bus, they would not be able to use the CCTV footage against the staff member?

In my view if a staff member drives dangerously, they should be disciplined and CCTV footage should be taken into account whether the Garda are involved or not.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

Here a driver claims that CCTV cannot be used as a disciplinary measure unless the Garda are involved:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56419439&postcount=8

Does this policy still exist? Id so, would that mean if the same situation happened in Dublin Bus, they would not be able to use the CCTV footage against the staff member?

In my view if a staff member drives dangerously, they should be disciplined and CCTV footage should be taken into account whether the Garda are involved or not.

Strictly speaking no it couldn't the same as if a driver was caught stealing on CCTV however both are criminal offences so if a driver tried to use it as a defence to avoid internal disciplinary procedures, then the matter would be handed to the Gardai and a criminal conviction would and could be used in disciplinary proceedings.

The camera is not there to spy on drivers, but that does not protect anyone from breaking the law.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

Simple question - if a Dublin Bus driver is caught doing something that is against company policy on CCTV which is seen by another staff member, can said staff member be subject to disciplinary action.

A simple yes or no answer would be appreciated.

As Alek said it would depend on the incident, if it was a minor rule breach like not wearing a company shirt and the only evidence was CCTV then I doubt they could use it , if it was something like this then the employee would be made aware that the company can and do pass CCTV to the Gardai and they can be prosecuted and could on conviction lose their license etc etc.

Cookie_Monster

punisher5112 wrote: »

Show me where a fm radio or any portable player is illegal while driving a vehicle.

show me where an ipad is specifically illegal...

just because they're not specifically covered doesn't mean they don't fall under driving without due care and attention for example.

Supposedly he was only using it as a radio

Cookie_Monster

punisher5112 wrote: »

Why is there so much interest in db ?

Because of the large numbers of drivers, vehicles and the high visibility I'm guessing. Far more people come into contact with DB every day than most other companies on the roads