BJJ Etiquette?

Subcomandante Marcos

Howya lads.

I'm a white belt, not far away from my blue belt now, looking forward to moving forward!

Anyway, I've been training at the same place for a while and was always rolling with other white belts and the odd blue belt or coaches (brown and black).

Steadily getting better as I go and really enjoying learning!

Like everyone there are some lads I can figure out really quickly and some lads who can just do what they want at will and I can't for the life of me do anything but try to pull guard and hold on and frustrate them into making a mistake.

Lately I've been paired with a certain blue belt a lot. I'm a fair bit bigger than him (probably 10+cm in height and 20 kg in weight) so the coach likes using me as a way for him to learn how to deal with bigger stronger guys.

At the start his obvious advantage in technique meant that the size difference was mostly balanced out and it was a fun roll but as a result of rolling with him I'm progressing pretty quickly in figureing him out and nout 7 or 8 times out of 10 I can best him as I've just "figured him out".

The problem is that this is driving him insane, he gets really frustrated and competitive and just will not tap, ever, and I feel like if he doesn't learn to accept that I have the better of him I'm going to end up hurting him or choking him out.

I've never choked anyone out, I'm a white belt, I've only ever had friendly rolling sessions but with this guy I'm just taking him back so often that I'm getting him in RNC's and because he won't tap I end up letting go and continuing to roll and trying something else and then he doesn't tap and I let go because I don't want to hurt his arm/leg and then try something else and then he refuses to tap so I let go... until eventually he passes my guard and gets a choke or lock and I tap before I get hurt/pass out.

My dielmma here is this, should I just "make" him tap/choke him out? I know everyone gets choked eventually but I don't want to/don't know if I'm comfortable doing it in a "friendly" training session. I brought it up with the coach and his reply was "everyone breaks and everyone gets choked, he can make his own decisions" but I thought I'd ask the crowd...

cletus

As a blue belt he must probably didn't want to be seen using to a white belt, even a bigger/stronger one.

If you know you have the sub, and he's not tapping, you gain nothing from "forcing" him to tap. That just leads to injury and bad feeling.

If it were me, I'd sink the sub, give him the time to tap, and if he doesn't, let go and sink another sub. It's frustrating, but the less contentious approach

ScottStorm

Personally, if he refuses to tap to a choke I would choke him out. Now, I don't mean to squeeze his head off while cranking but if the choke is on keep it on until he goes out, he has to learn too.

But then that's just me....

Subcomandante Marcos

cletus wrote: »

As a blue belt he must probably didn't want to be seen using to a white belt, even a bigger/stronger one.

If you know you have the sub, and he's not tapping, you gain nothing from "forcing" him to tap. That just leads to injury and bad feeling.

If it were me, I'd sink the sub, give him the time to tap, and if he doesn't, let go and sink another sub. It's frustrating, but the less contentious approach

This is pretty much my view on it.

ScottStorm wrote: »

Personally, if he refuses to tap to a choke I would choke him out. Now, I don't mean to squeeze his head off while cranking but if the choke is on keep it on until he goes out, he has to learn too.

But then that's just me....

This is my coach's view... ha!

cletus

ScottStorm wrote: »

Personally, if he refuses to tap to a choke I would choke him out. Now, I don't mean to squeeze his head off while cranking but if the choke is on keep it on until he goes out, he has to learn too.

But then that's just me....

What does he have to learn though? He's a guy paying money to take part in a recreational activity.

And even if there is a lesson to learn, is hardly the job of another guy who's just practicing a hobby

syklops

A friend of mine dislocated her shoulder when she refused to tap out once. She doesn't like to lose.

Respect to her!

You tap out when you've had enough. Your opponent hadnt had enough yet. Don't strangle him, continue applying pressure. Maybe he's waiting for you to relax in your move and go on counter attack.

Subcomandante Marcos

cletus wrote: »

What does he have to learn though? He's a guy paying money to take part in a recreational activity.

And even if there is a lesson to learn, is hardly the job of another guy who's just practicing a hobby

Some schools and coaches are very much of the "break for blue" and "everyone gets choked out" line of thinking.

Now my coach straight up said "don't keep cranking on his knee or break his arm just to teach him a lesson, but stop letting him go, even if you just hold at a moderate level, so he's in pain, he'll give in eventually, but if you have a choke and he won't tap, hold it until goes to sleep, your technique is good, you won't hurt him".

I'm just a pansy about putting people to sleep as it's never happened to me and I've never done it.

cletus

Going to sleep or being put to sleep is not a big deal, I've done both.

I guess I just don't think there's a lot to gain from it in this scenario. If he's not happy to tap to you, I don't think he'll thank you for choking him out.

Subcomandante Marcos

cletus wrote: »

Going to sleep or being put to sleep is not a big deal, I've done both.

I guess I just don't think there's a lot to gain from it in this scenario. If he's not happy to tap to you, I don't think he'll thank you for choking him out.

We get on well. It's just when we're rolling he gets hyper competitive he'll tap to other people no bother just not me, the coach reckons it's because he knows I'll let him out and try something else. I dunno sure I'll carry on as is for now.

Doug Cartel

You sure you have these subs on properly? It could be that this guy is more experienced than the other people you roll with and is better able to judge when a sub attempt is actually going to do damage. If you are used to rolling with mostly beginners or people who are way better then you (and no one in between) you might not be used to the situation where you have the sub 90% correct, but your opponent is good enough to know that you still have to make some small correction before it is time to tap.

I don't think you should intentionally try and hurt him or put him out. I do however think you should take extra care to lock him down, block all escape routes, and then slowly up the pressure on the sub until you are sure that your partner not tapping is due to pig-headedness and not your technique.

ScottStorm

cletus wrote: »

What does he have to learn though? He's a guy paying money to take part in a recreational activity./quote]

Possibly humility?

Or as another poster mentioned maybe he doesn't feel like the choke is sunk in and would wait until he was going out before tapping but op releases first.

Mellor

Doug Cartel wrote: »

You sure you have these subs on properly?

I agree with cletus, that if you have the sub, move on, but the above is an important point too.
The point at which you used to other white belts tapping might not actually be enough to get the tap from the bluebelt, especially if he has comp experience and is a bit stubborn.

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

...I'm just taking him back so often that I'm getting him in RNC's and because he won't tap I end up letting go and continuing to roll and trying something else and then he doesn't tap and I let go because I don't want to hurt his arm/leg

When you get the RNC, how long are you holding it? Is he just grinding it out or is he working an escape. The issue is now that he knows you’ll let it go after a few seconds.
So whether you actually have the sub or not, he can wait it out for you to release him and he doesn’t have to bother with an escape. I think you should break that habit. But you don’t need to break his arm to do so.

Next time you get an armbar, just hold it. Don’t keep cranking it looking for the break. But just hold him with moderate pressure for the rest of the round. If he can’t escape without you releasing him, then he knows he was caught.
Do the same with a choke, don’t let it go. Don’t try and put him to sleep. But hold the position and keep enough force that its uncomfortable. He’ll probably give up fighting it after a while and tap. If he doesn’t, then at least you are working on your control from the back.

Clive

As others have said, he may waiting for your choke to be just right before he taps, or he may just be stubborn. A properly applied rear naked should have him out in less than ten seconds.

The best way to handle it, in my view, is to take the middle ground. Choke him out once, then you know your technique is correct. Once you've done that, go back to "catch and release" as you've been doing.

He may change, he may not, but you move on knowing what the situation is. The above applies only to chokes of course, not joint locks.

Subcomandante Marcos

All good feedback, thanks lads.

Subcomandante Marcos

Mellor wrote: »

I agree with cletus, that if you have the sub, move on, but the above is an important point too.
The point at which you used to other white belts tapping might not actually be enough to get the tap from the bluebelt, especially if he has comp experience and is a bit stubborn.



When you get the RNC, how long are you holding it? Is he just grinding it out or is he working an escape. The issue is now that he knows you’ll let it go after a few seconds.
So whether you actually have the sub or not, he can wait it out for you to release him and he doesn’t have to bother with an escape. I think you should break that habit. But you don’t need to break his arm to do so.

Next time you get an armbar, just hold it. Don’t keep cranking it looking for the break. But just hold him with moderate pressure for the rest of the round. If he can’t escape without you releasing him, then he knows he was caught.
Do the same with a choke, don’t let it go. Don’t try and put him to sleep. But hold the position and keep enough force that its uncomfortable. He’ll probably give up fighting it after a while and tap. If he doesn’t, then at least you are working on your control from the back.

When I get an RNC in properly, as in I know it's properly sunk, I'll slowly up the pressure I exert until I know I'm at the level where if he doesn't tap he's going to sleep, but when he still doesn't tap I'll let go after 5 or so seconds.

Now I know I'm applying the choke properly because my coaches have told me I am, they tap when I get it on them and have told me my technique is really good and that I apply enough pressure to put people to sleep.

I reckon the over riding thought in this thread, that he knows I'll let go is probably right, but still I'm all about the "keep it playful" style so I'll probably keep letting him go.
I'm not losing anything by not choking him out or hurting his knee, and if anything it's giving more experience in how to move from one thing to another when needs be so that's a positive from it at least.

My coach has told me that if it was in competition he'd expect me to not let go until the other guy taps or falls asleep or the buzzer goes so I need to be prepared to push that far if I ever decide to compete, but that's a bit further down the road yet so I'm just focused on improving over the next 3 or 4 months and trying to get to blue by the end of the year.

arybvtcw0eolkf

In a club setting I'd never go full on for any joint lock, but I'd give enough to let my training partner know he'd better tap.

Someone said that a girl wouldn't tap because she's stubborn, and now she's got a dislocated shoulder ~ this is an idiot.. In a big competition and you're fighting in a final I might say 'respect', but in the club I'd call anyone who risks injury like this by not tapping out an idiot.

As for chokes and strangles, against a newbie I wouldn't apply them with too much force but against a good white, and certainly a blue I'd have no problem applying a proper choke/strangle. They'll tap pretty quick once they feel its in properly.. Unless they're experienced and know the signs, me well I for tunnel vision before I tap.

Either way training in the club is never (or should never be) a competition and coaches should be looking out for all sorts over over zealous members, and encouraging and getting the best out of the lazy.

Subcomandante Marcos

I actually had a chat with himself the other day while we were stretching and asked him why he never taps and he just looked at me and said "because you keep letting go".

So I asked him if I was applying locks and chokes properly and he reckons I have them spot on but he know's I'm not cranking the locks and even though the chokes are sunk perfectly, I'm only exerting 50-60% at most.

Then I asked what would happen if I put more pressure on locks or chokes and he said "if my arm felt like it would get hurt or I started to feel I was going out, I'd tap instantly".

So, eh, yeah, he has no problem tapping to me, I'm just being overly cautious.

We didn't roll together since the chat but I promised him I wouldn't hold back and he gave me a fist bump and told me not to hold back, he'll let me know when he's ready to be let go.

During a short roll to work on something with my coach later that session my coach got mad excited and told me my locks were more "crisp" and my chokes were "crazy tight" and to keep up the good work.

Thanks for the advice lads!

Black Sheep

Well done for just talking to the guy about it.

When I read this thread a couple of things occurred to me:-

If you're a smaller or middling sized guy rolling with bigger guys then whether they're white belts or not you've got to protect yourself over time. I feel like if you are rolling competitively or toughing it out all the time when you are at a weight disadvantage, even against less experienced people in training, then you've got to consider the long term consequences. Getting stacked up year in year out by bigger guys can grind on your neck, for example. You might hold out and not tap class after class, but I think you've got to consider the possibility that eventually it's self-defeating from a long term healthy training point of view.

The other thing that occurred to me is that although most blue belts do not actively want to be tapping to a white belt there's also the possibility that if the white belt is big (as the OP says he is) and also close to getting his blue belt anyway (as the OP also says he is) then... Well, not really surprising if it happens sometimes. If no white belt ever tapped a blue belt in a club you'd have to wonder whether the white belts were progressing at all.

Simply Red

I remember asking this question in my first few weeks of bjj, i was told that if you had any sort of joint lock just let go if they're not tapping, its not worth causing injury. If you have a choke though, choke his ass out

Mellor

Black Sheep wrote: »

Getting stacked up year in year out by bigger guys can grind on your neck, for example. You might hold out and not tap class after class, but I think you've got to consider the possibility that eventually it's self-defeating from a long term healthy training point of view.

If a bigger guy, or any guy really, cranks my neck, I'll tap. If he has me he has me. I don't see the point in trying to treat every roll in the gym like its a comp final. Plus that approach ignore the the mistake that was made to get into that position.
That said, being stacked isn't a sub imo. If you are in a bad position, then give up the pass and work an escape, but don't just quit imo.

The other thing that occurred to me is that although most blue belts do not actively want to be tapping to a white belt ...

That's probably true for a lot of newly ranked people. It's a bad quality, but its very hard to avoid. Especially when a new promotion paints a big bullseye on your back.

Simply Red wrote: »

I remember asking this question in my first few weeks of bjj, i was told that if you had any sort of joint lock just let go if they're not tapping, its not worth causing injury. If you have a choke though, choke his ass out

I think its really depended on the other person.
It's a new guy, then I'll let go when I know I have it. Which is probably at the 50% mark.
But if a regular training partner is fighting holding out you have to consider that he knows what he is doing and is purposely trying to escape. If that case you shouldn't let go, he is training too.

Black Sheep

I don't think I'd suggest just quitting if stacked - but it's worth thinking about what the long term consequences are of being in that position a lot if you're a smaller guy.

While it's not a submission in itself, if there's a significant weight difference it's not good with the degree of neck flexion involved for the guy on bottom. Although there are other positions where the guy on top is controlling the neck - 'shoulder of justice' or some form of cross face - it's not as pronounced.

Although people tend to think it's a singular incident that causes things like disc prolapses, one submission or one impact for example, it's sometimes the case that they're more the 'buckling injury' (Stuart McGill) that highlights that your neck has been in trouble for a while because of bad postures, being in bad positions etc.

It won't be an issue for everyone, but my basic point was that I don't take a cavalier attitude to regularly 'toughing out' that particular position.

As far as tapping when it's on and limiting competitive rolling goes: Sure, common sense.

MartyMcFly84

Pretty much all of my coaches back and neck problems have come from rolling with bigger guys back in day.

Its is very difficult to have a competitive technical roll with lower belts if there is a significant weight difference in my experience. The older I get the more I avoid rolling with anyone significantly heavier than me unless I know they can are high level and in control.

I'n my experience the larger person almost always uses their strength and size to force position the more competitive the roll gets. Its only natural, but can cause serious problems down the line for the smaller partner.

Niall Keane

OP you will carry the guilt if you permanently injure him. SO if he's a feckin idiot, fine... look at the big picture:

your engaged in "training"

this dope just never quits even to his own detriment,

great... you just got yourself a high intensity sparring session - lock him up, release, lock him up , release.......

its a gift! when everyone else is getting to take breaks and pat each other on the back "nice spar mate!" you are able to place a sub 3-4 times as often per roll?

I dont do BJJ, and I could be way off, stand up chinese wrestling is part of my game, and sometimes although you have felled them they keep on gnawing at your knees... ok ... more practice for me, more situations to learn to deal with woohoo!!!
Same in sanda sparring, some lads don't / won't see that you have refrained from taking the ko opportunity. Should I get upset that they ignore my good manners? naaa! I just think if I had fuked up or he had been more skillful perhaps this is exactly where I'd be now... so game on ...

it sure beats the fuker who takes his time between bouts!!!

Subcomandante Marcos

Niall Keane wrote: »

OP you will carry the guilt if you permanently injure him. SO if he's a feckin idiot, fine... look at the big picture:

your engaged in "training"

this dope just never quits even to his own detriment,

great... you just got yourself a high intensity sparring session - lock him up, release, lock him up , release.......

its a gift! when everyone else is getting to take breaks and pat each other on the back "nice spar mate!" you are able to place a sub 3-4 times as often per roll?

I dont do BJJ, and I could be way off, stand up chinese wrestling is part of my game, and sometimes although you have felled them they keep on gnawing at your knees... ok ... more practice for me, more situations to learn to deal with woohoo!!!
Same in sanda sparring, some lads don't / won't see that you have refrained from taking the ko opportunity. Should I get upset that they ignore my good manners? naaa! I just think if I had fuked up or he had been more skillful perhaps this is exactly where I'd be now... so game on ...

it sure beats the fuker who takes his time between bouts!!!

Read the whole thread. Nobody is breaking anyone's leg in training, but you can exert moderate pressure so that they know you have them and a choke isn't going to hurt anyone.

Anyway, it's a moot point, he tapped to an armbar and a triangle choke (I adjusted my technique on this over the last few sessions as I had a feeling I was leaving too much space at bottom between my legs, not using abductors as much anymore but going more sideways and using my larger leg muscles primarily) in our last roll, althought he got me in 2 d'arce chokes, a RNC and an americana so he's definitely figuring my game out!

Niall Keane

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Read the whole thread. Nobody is breaking anyone's leg in training, but you can exert moderate pressure so that they know you have them and a choke isn't going to hurt anyone.

Anyway, it's a moot point, he tapped to an armbar and a triangle choke (I adjusted my technique on this over the last few sessions as I had a feeling I was leaving too much space at bottom between my legs, not using abductors as much anymore but going more sideways and using my larger leg muscles primarily) in our last roll, althought he got me in 2 d'arce chokes, a RNC and an americana so he's definitely figuring my game out!

thats whats cool about good training partners.... mutual evolution

Subcomandante Marcos

Niall Keane wrote: »

thats whats cool about good training partners.... mutual evolution

Definitely.

He has a really thin neck, so while my old technique was working on the bigger lads I was training with, it wasn't quite getting him and he had more time to try escape or I'd have to exert a lot more pressure using my abductors, which means I'd burn out. It was his suggestion to go more sidways. I was going about 45 degrees but it's a lot closer to 90 now, he even showed me a vidjo on his phone of what he ment and let me practice without resisting for a few minutes.

He's a good egg!

I haven't got his back in agggges so not sure about RNC's but I reckon I'm good there anyway as I'd just been releasing him too easily.

RoboRat

He has a really thin neck, so while my old technique was working on the bigger lads I was training with, it wasn't quite getting him

Tepee is called for in those situations : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkxTPSHHYeY