Underpaid Apprentice Joiner

AOB1995

Hi all first post so go easy on me !!!

I am an apprentice joiner who is in phase 3 (year 2) , i work for a relatively large construction company and i feel like i am surpassing my expectations for a 2nd year apprentice , now i dont want to sound overconfident , but i am providing this company with all their labour for door frames (rebated) with pre finished doors all hinged beveled etc. All of their skirting , architrave , window boards , which is all mdf plus ran on spindle , also i make their staircases from scratch , thats not even involving everything else !!!

Heres the problem

I am only on €187 a week (4.50? Per Hour) , i asked for a raise which i am entitled to , as 2nd year apprentices gross pay is €330 approx. I was basically told no ....

So i am providing this company lets say two weeks work , a normal joiner 2 weeks wages are maybe 1400-2000 euros ?? My wages €374 ....

I just feel like i am being done over because i cant save for a car , can barely pay rent and cant enjoy myself like some of my friends , im not asking for boat loads of cash just to comply with apprenticeship rates ...

So do i have legal rights or not and whats all your opinions ??

Thanks all a reply would be massively appreciated !!!

Grueller

AOB1995 wrote: »

Hi all first post so go easy on me !!!

I am an apprentice joiner who is in phase 3 (year 2) , i work for a relatively large construction company and i feel like i am surpassing my expectations for a 2nd year apprentice , now i dont want to sound overconfident , but i am providing this company with all their labour for door frames (rebated) with pre finished doors all hinged beveled etc. All of their skirting , architrave , window boards , which is all mdf plus ran on spindle , also i make their staircases from scratch , thats not even involving everything else !!!

Heres the problem

I am only on €187 a week (4.50? Per Hour) , i asked for a raise which i am entitled to , as 2nd year apprentices gross pay is €330 approx. I was basically told no ....

So i am providing this company lets say two weeks work , a normal joiner 2 weeks wages are maybe 1400-2000 euros ?? My wages €374 ....

I just feel like i am being done over because i cant save for a car , can barely pay rent and cant enjoy myself like some of my friends , im not asking for boat loads of cash just to comply with apprenticeship rates ...

So do i have legal rights or not and whats all your opinions ??

Thanks all a reply would be massively appreciated !!!

You are being abused by not being moved to the wage level for the next phase. Whether or not they are breaking the terms of their agreement with you and more importantly with solas I cannot answer. My advice would be to ring solas and get their take on where exactly you stand legally.
My second piece of advice would be to start looking for alternative employment in a firm where you will be appreciated and more importantly, paid in line with your responsibility.
In my experience of working for both small and medium to large firms, you learn more working in smaller shops as you work on mor individual or bespoke pieces and avoid the assembly line set up of larger workshops.
Best of luck with your career in joinery.

kadman

Unfortunately apprentices can all too often become cheap forms of labour for both big and small companies. Something many have to put up with in order to stay in employment.

But on a more serious note, I dont understand how a carpenter joiner is actually using a spindle moulder, as that is part of another trades brief. Wood machinist to be exact, as you probably know.

And there was a whole plethora of insurance queries on this type of practice, years ago, so much so that they refuse to cover unqualified personal on these particular woodworking machines. For very good reason, as they the major cause of serious injury in the manufacturing environment. And if you are a 2nd year chippy apprentice, then you,ve never been trained in proper spindle moulder use in either phase 1 or 2.

And I suspect that there are no visible method statements attached to any machine that you are using in the workshop either, outlining the proper use for each particular task. And if thats the case, health and safety would have a field day there.

I think the advice given earlier about moving on from there was solid.

woodturner

I'd definitely give Solas a call and see what they say. Wages in any trade now aren't great. I am a qualified cabinet maker myself and was laid off work 5 years ago. The money there was great and was paid according to the proper rates.

I now work in a place making kitchen components and only get what a third year apprentice would get.

woodturner

kadman wrote: »

Unfortunately apprentices can all too often become cheap forms of labour for both big and small companies. Something many have to put up with in order to stay in employment.

But on a more serious note, I dont understand how a carpenter joiner is actually using a spindle moulder, as that is part of another trades brief. Wood machinist to be exact, as you probably know.

And there was a whole plethora of insurance queries on this type of practice, years ago, so much so that they refuse to cover unqualified personal on these particular woodworking machines. For very good reason, as they the major cause of serious injury in the manufacturing environment. And if you are a 2nd year chippy apprentice, then you,ve never been trained in proper spindle moulder use in either phase 1 or 2.

And I suspect that there are no visible method statements attached to any machine that you are using in the workshop either, outlining the proper use for each particular task. And if thats the case, health and safety would have a field day there.

I think the advice given earlier about moving on from there was solid.

When I worked in that aforementioned place I too was thrown into the deep end and let use machines without the proper training. "This is how to adjust it. This is how to start it. Watch your fingers"

AOB1995

Well lads thanks for the reply !!!

Grueller in regards to your opinion , i contacted my training advisor through solas and she said the other apprentice who i work with (works primarily in timber frame construction) contacted her about the same matter and hes in phase 5 (year3) , also ive asked two more apprentices who are in phase 1 and they are on €165 !! I suppose its a cheap form of labour is right but id assume hes planning on keeping me and them on the same wage throughout the 4 years ... the training advisor said she has no legal rights and is solely between the worker and the company ...

In regards leaving and finding a new company , i am perfectly happy within my workplace , its a 5 minute cycle down the road , the head joiner is spot on and has keen eye for joinery , sort of like O.C.D !!! Everyone within the yard have a great relationship and ive just grown to like the place being there day in day out , which is good , however it just seems like a continous battle between office and workyard , they honestly must think im superman , but what can expect from a 2nd year apprentice ??

Im due to pay €900 for the next phase for fees , which i dont have , i cant get a car , only have basic hand tools so im codding myself when i finish up because im not getting into a site without tools or transport !!

Also greetings Kadman thanks for the reply

In regards the spindle moulder i mostly cut heads for rebated door frames on it , i also run a 45º bevel on skirting and architrave (M.D.F) , its also cut out of 18mm 8x4 sheets on a type of wall saw ( sort of like a panel saw ) , machinery i operate include , spindle , wall saw , 4-cutter , 5-cutter , door morticer , tiger saw, radial arm saw and a band saw

Also i am being trained how to operate these machines , everything is wrote into a training log book ( our new safety inspector introduced this ) , also whenever i set the spindle for whatever , i have a fully qualified joiner overlooking my every move , but when im running materials through im entirely on my own

I can honestly say lads im learning everyday and picking up on the finer detail and safety that goes with the trade , i dont want to leave to be honest

Im just disappointed a company which had over 150 staff and generated a turnover of over 40 million in the height of it cant appreciate progression , but i suppose thats how you become a millionaire !!! There really should be more measures instilled that makes apprenticeships more enticing for people coming out of school ....

AOB1995

Well lads thanks for the reply !!!

Grueller in regards to your opinion , i contacted my training advisor through solas and she said the other apprentice who i work with (works primarily in timber frame construction) contacted her about the same matter and hes in phase 5 (year3) , also ive asked two more apprentices who are in phase 1 and they are on €165 !! I suppose its a cheap form of labour is right but id assume hes planning on keeping me and them on the same wage throughout the 4 years ... the training advisor said she has no legal rights and is solely between the worker and the company ...

In regards leaving and finding a new company , i am perfectly happy within my workplace , its a 5 minute cycle down the road , the head joiner is spot on and has keen eye for joinery , sort of like O.C.D !!! Everyone within the yard have a great relationship and ive just grown to like the place being there day in day out , which is good , however it just seems like a continous battle between office and workyard , they honestly must think im superman , but what can expect from a 2nd year apprentice ??

Im due to pay €900 for the next phase for fees , which i dont have , i cant get a car , only have basic hand tools so im codding myself when i finish up because im not getting into a site without tools or transport !!

Also greetings Kadman thanks for the reply

In regards the spindle moulder i mostly cut heads for rebated door frames on it , i also run a 45º bevel on skirting and architrave (M.D.F) , its also cut out of 18mm 8x4 sheets on a type of wall saw ( sort of like a panel saw ) , machinery i operate include , spindle , wall saw , 4-cutter , 5-cutter , door morticer , tiger saw, radial arm saw and a band saw

Also i am being trained how to operate these machines , everything is wrote into a training log book ( our new safety inspector introduced this ) , also whenever i set the spindle for whatever , i have a fully qualified joiner overlooking my every move , but when im running materials through im entirely on my own

I can honestly say lads im learning everyday and picking up on the finer detail and safety that goes with the trade , i dont want to leave to be honest

Im just disappointed a company which had over 150 staff and generated a turnover of over 40 million in the height of it cant appreciate progression , but i suppose thats how you become a millionaire !!! There really should be more measures instilled that makes apprenticeships more enticing for people coming out of school ....

kadman

Glad to hear you are passionate about your craft.

But in all fairness, if you are being allowed to set a four or five cutter, and run mdf on your own on a verticle spindle moulder, then you are being abused in the workplace in more ways than one.

For me, safety is paramount , in all aspects of woodworking, in particular in a joinery environment. And its something that is always a personal bug for me.
I have seen too many young apprentices, put into situations they should not be in. And a second year one setting a five cutter and spindle is a major one for me.

I,ve know of so called experts, taking off the guarding on five cutters and pushing oversize material through with forklifts, and they were regarded as "great men"............simply because they did what the employer wanted done, regardless of any thought to the operator.

I,ve also worked in joineries where new apprentices, of 6 months were put on spindle moulders to perform extremely difficult and dangerous work on curved handrail ramps , only to lose four fingers within four minutes use.
And the employers solution was to remove the machine, and place it in an outshed, labelled as a dangerous machine never to be used again.

The reason your employer is allowing you to use a moulder or four cutter is cost, and nothing else. A qualified wood machinist that knows his stuff can probably earn 45-60k per year according to FAS. Thats why you are doing it.

And I,ve spent 40 +years in architectural joinery, in many joineries, and i,ve never yet met a so called expert that knows that peripheral speed of different diameter cutter blocks are different , even at the same machine speed setting...........and could calculate the speed.

OOps I tell a a lie, my 83 year old dad is probalby the best machinist I know, and he could give you the speed

You are way too young to take chances with these machines, and your hands for that matter. I,ve seen too many mutilated to be honest. And the fact that they have now rolled cabinetmaking and woodmachining into a new format means that the tuition is going to be far less again.

Stay safe, no matter what the cost.

End of rant...

http://www.fas.ie/nr/rdonlyres/a56aa816-4bcf-4356-829d-ae488c0fda5a/0/the_craft_of_wood_machinery.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/faqs.htm#c3

Training
Only adequately trained and experienced employees should be authorised to carry out setting and adjustment and only the setter should be allowed in the working area of the machine during setting operations.

kadman

Free download. Necessary reading if you are in this game.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l114.pdf

kadman

Local training centres to contact and air your grievance on your pay rate , or lack of it.

http://www.fas.ie/NR/rdonlyres/ED75B798-6549-48EA-A5D0-10A8CCB0EEE0/6600/ETBOfficeApprenticeshipContactDetails.pdf

kadman

If you could move over to this, then your problems would be solved.

http://www.opw.ie/en/media/Carpentry%20and%20Joinery%20Apprenticeship.pdf

Government facilitites would be far more likely to have proper wage rates, training ect, than any manufacture for profit
outfit could ever offer.

Its worth looking at any opportunites here.

One shot on kill

Although you are more than Likley been taken advantage of there is one thing I picked upon that I feel you do need to know.

There actually isn't to many lads joiners or not on 700-1000 euro a week.
By the sounds of it your a assist to the company bug the rates quoted by Fas and sikas are only guide lines. Come the 3rd and 4th year your actual wages might not reach them rates either.

Haven said that how long are you in this particular company.