selling bulls

valtra2

I have a few 5 star maternal weaning bulls. I usually sell all as bulls for finishing at 16 months. Could I sell theses as breeding bulls. They are off a 5 star bull for material and terminal and few 5 star cows. I do not run a pedigree herd

Kovu

Do bulls not have to be regd to qualify for the scheme?

valtra2

Kovu wrote: »

Do bulls not have to be regd to qualify for the scheme?

Was thinking as much. Just a idea I had this morning.

Kovu

I'm only half guessing that but I don't think it'd be right to have half bred bulls qualify when the other regs are so strict.

whelan2

you could sell to people not in the scheme?

Farrell

Kovu wrote: »

I'm only half guessing that but I don't think it'd be right to have half bred bulls qualify when the other regs are so strict.

Scheme doesn't mention PB, just stock bull.
Also not many PB Bulls going to be 4-5 star.
In my opinion there'll be allot of good Bulls which will breed top quality stock which will be eligible for this scheme.

High bike

Don't know for sure but I'd imagine they have to be PB Reg for the suckler scheme

tanko

According to the terms and conditions a "stock bull shall mean a beef bred bull".
It doesn't say the bull has to be purebred or registered as far as I can see.

A couple of years ago I was fattening a young angus x lim bull of HCA in the shed, had a heifer bulling but had no straw suitable for her so let the bull out to her. Thought he'd be easy calving anyway, the heifer she had is a five star heifer according to icbf same as her mother.
She's far from five star in my opinion.

Future Farmer

Lads need to look at the scheme like this:

Commercial use:
Replacement sires MUST be 4 or 5 Stars Replacement Index across breed
General use sires MUST be 4 or 5 Stars within or across breed on Terminal or Replacement Index

PBR use:
Replacement sires MUST be 4 or 5 Star Replacement Index within breed
General use sires as above...

I see no reason why you couldn't sell them as breeding bulls and qualify for programme, but who is going to buy a crossbred bull?

#ItIsAllAboutTheStars

sako 85

This question may stink of ignorance but I've thought about it for a while. What's so wrong with a cross bred bull on cross bred cows? I've heard many times that non-uniformity of calves is an issue, surely there is a lot of non-uniformity anyway from most herds having many breeds mixed in different cows in the herd. Surely if the bull is a well bred animal himself from two beef breeds and being used as a terminal sire only what's the big deal?

tanko

sako 85 wrote: »

This question may stink of ignorance but I've thought about it for a while. What's so wrong with a cross bred bull on cross bred cows? I've heard many times that non-uniformity of calves is an issue, surely there is a lot of non-uniformity anyway from most herds having many breeds mixed in different cows in the herd. Surely if the bull is a well bred animal himself from two beef breeds and being used as a terminal sire only what's the big deal?

There's nothing wrong with it as long as he's producing good quality calves. There's lots of rubbish purebred and pedigree Bulls out there. Also there's been plenty of rubbish Bulls in Ai over the years.

Future Farmer

+1 Tanko

Sure Stablishers are a purebred crossbred essentially.

I just saying it's not an easy sale, not there is anything wrong with it.

Have read a few articles on Black Baldys - generally AA (bull) x HE (cow) am kinda half looking for one for a dairy herd (if I find one I think I can convince father & brother)

sako 85

Future Farmer, would a Black Baldy Bull get polled whitehead calves out of Friesian Cow?

Future Farmer

sako 85 wrote: »

Future Farmer, would a Black Baldy Bull get polled whitehead calves out of Friesian Cow?

If you use a AA on a Homo Polled HE:
100% will be Homo Polled (All progeny polled & all their offspring)

If you use a AA on a Hetero Polled HE:
50% will be Homo Polled (All progeny polled & all their offspring)
50% will be Hetero Polled (half their offspring will be polled)


If you use a AA on a Horned HE:
100% will be Hetero Polled (half their offspring will be polled)

Note: Taken that all Angus' are Homo Polled - I know that there can be cases of scurs etc with some bulls.

I think their is testing available for Homo vs Hetero vs Horned

Farmer Pudsey

Crossbred breeding Bulls/Rams are not used in Ireland or generally accross Europe. It is different in the North America, Australia and NZ. There cross bred Rams and Bulls are bred for terminal sires. M C Quantock Bulls breed crossbred bulls that are HE or AA crossed to Simentental/Gervais. They do this to keep the hardiness. As the cows used on the ranch are either HE or AA the used of these bulls gives a 3/4 traditional breed calf with the nearly the same hardiness and easy calving of a full bred animal but the 25% SI/Gervais introduces lenght and size into the calf.

http://canadasbulls.com/bulls/

blue5000

The pedigree lads will be hopping up and down if 5 star x bred bulls are acceptable and their stuff isn't:eek:

I've been using a purebred non reg bull for a few yrs and there is no problem with icbf, they were able to tell me what his breeding is like just from his tag number. Only thing is I can't search for his stats online using bull search, but his info comes as a report once a year. He was gene sampled last year.

All that pedigree is is a name registered with a society. If icbf have accurate records of 3 generations of tag numbers it's as good as a lot of pedigree cattle, from a traceabilty point of view, only difference is numbers instead of names. Might not be better from a breeding point of view. What I mean is this; I had a few cows by an angus x fr? bull, they weren't much to look at, but they had a calf every year and they all lasted 10-12 calvings, they had lots of milk too.

Often thought about selling aubrac x angus bull to dairy lads for easy calving on heifers.

valtra2

Just got terms and conditions in post today andit says bulls do not have to be purebred. So looks like I can sell my bulls

Bellview

valtra2 wrote: »

Just got terms and conditions in post today andit says bulls do not have to be purebred. So looks like I can sell my bulls

Ensure you get more than commercial value for them to compensate for the headaches you may get due to calving fertility etc if you are only getting commercial value then you are better off killing them...

Cattlepen

Future Farmer wrote: »

+1 Tanko

Sure Stablishers are a purebred crossbred essentially.

I just saying it's not an easy sale, not there is anything wrong with it.

Have read a few articles on Black Baldys - generally AA (bull) x HE (cow) am kinda half looking for one for a dairy herd (if I find one I think I can convince father & brother)

I thought the black baldys are bred from pb angus cows and pb Hereford bull ? Or does it matter if it's the other way round? Black baldy cows are definetly thought a lot about in the states and Canada. Not sure about bulls

sako 85

Bellview wrote: »

Ensure you get more than commercial value for them to compensate for the headaches you may get due to calving fertility etc if you are only getting commercial value then you are better off killing them...

Quick question, what calving or fertility issues? I would have thought they could be easy or hard calved like any bull. I don't know what fertility issue would be?

Canaryblue

Hybrid Vigour is something that really isn't managed well at all in Ireland

Hybrid vigour is the production advantage that can be obtained from crossing breeds, or strains, which are genetically diverse. The new combinations of genetic material can lead to production advantages over and above the average of the two parent breeds or strains. To be of economic advantage, the new production levels need to be above those of either parent strain or breed – otherwise you are better off sticking with the superior parent line.

All crossbreeding systems require the continuing input of purebred animals. The numbers of animals required to achieve this should not be under-estimated.

Regular crossing provides stud breeders with a substantial incentive to maintain and improve their straightbred populations, particularly in relation to objective performance criteria.

Future Farmer

Canaryblue wrote: »

Hybrid Vigour is something that really isn't managed well at all in Ireland

Don't really agree with you - BWH, Black LMs etc

Plenty of lads cross breeding just not necessarily aware of it..

Canaryblue

Future Farmer wrote: »

Don't really agree with you - BWH, Black LMs etc

Plenty of lads cross breeding just not necessarily aware of it..

Well then isn't that mismanagement?

Future Farmer

Canaryblue wrote: »

Well then isn't that mismanagement?

Mismanagement?

Perhaps I should have said they don't give it a whole lot of thought rather than "not necessarily aware of it"

How many sheep farmers have speckled faces, borris ewes, mules, hilltex etc.

Canaryblue

Future Farmer wrote: »

Mismanagement?

Perhaps I should have said they don't give it a whole lot of thought rather than "not necessarily aware of it"

How many sheep farmers have speckled faces, borris ewes, mules, hilltex etc.

Sorry my previous comment may have cross across as a little snarky, wasn't meant to be

Haven't a clue about the sheep reference there I'm afraid to say though.

ganmo

We had a very through discussion on cross breeding rams in the sheep forum a while back