Family financial favouritism....

Pollypistol

Hi any advice would be much appreciated! Ok the story is that there is myself my mother and my sister. My mam feels that my sister is greedy and a taker and very materialistic.My sister doesn't treat me very well which also upsets my mam.My mother wants to secretly leave the majority of her money to me behind my sisters back. I asked my mam if she has thoroughly thought this out and she said yes for a long time she has and now shes sure. Her house is willed to both my sister and I but any money my mam has she has asked me to put into my bank account now but its not mine to spend unless she dies, it will be there as a back up if she ever needs it.My sister and her husband have great jobs and a very good lifestyle but they cry poverty to try to make out the opposite for some reason. I'm a stay at home mum (definitely could not afford to work and pay child care) my husband has an ok paid steady job. Because of this I feel my mum always feels like she needs to help us along which i am always telling her we are managing fine and she has helped us out enough in the past and it is time that we do our own thing. Anyway as much as we could do with the financial inheritance in the future I really don't know how I feel about all of this....advice please!

Gordon

Moved from Feedback, presume this is the correct forum.

orthsquel

Has she discussed anything about the will and the money with a solicitor? She'd need to find out if what she is doing is legal or not.

I think also for your own reputation you should refuse to agree to this set up as there would be nothing to say that you didn't skim money out of her account and steal it from your mother (I'm not accusing you of that but it might look like you took the money out of her account without her knowledge and tbh there would be nobody to say that isn't how it happened) should the will be disputed, just as much as that effectively it could be seen that your mother is laundering money away from someone who could potentially benefit/inherit in her will as well as Revenue for any taxes due on inheritance.

The proper way she should be doing this is through a solicitor and a will.

freshpopcorn

Is just make sure it's set up right so it doesn't look like you were stealing from your mother.
There is nothing wrong with one sibling inheriting more than another. I've often heard of it happening for various reasons.

Eric Cartman

you'd have to ask a solicitor to clarify, but while still alive your mother can give you up to 150k tax free i think , if she gave you money and signed a document to say she was giving it to you as a gift it would end any theories about skimming and it would stop your sister disputing the will to claw it back.

Rock77

And i certainly wouldnt feel bad about it. Its ur mothers money and she wants u to hav it.

Pollypistol

Thanks so much for all of your advice. I did mention to my mam that she should speak to a solicitor but basically my mam said there wouldn't be a need as she would be dealing in cash so its not traceable and it would be gradually withdrawn in cash and entered into my account. Therefore my mam said when she passes away and any solicitor searches through different banks to find her bank account they will see that money was withdrawn but there will be no tracing where it went after that. I will most likely have my sister then come to me questioning me about it and this is the hard part ill have to lie and play dumb. My mam said there is no way she could be truthful about all of this to my sister as all hell would break lose. I'm so glad that I could come on here and seek some very wise advice from you guys. I think you'll understand some of my frustrations.

fits

You are better off keeping this above board and doing it properly. The way your mum is suggesting could land you in trouble.

MissFlitworth

Pollypistol wrote: »

she would be dealing in cash so its not traceable and it would be gradually withdrawn in cash and entered into my account. Therefore my mam said when she passes away and any solicitor searches through different banks to find her bank account they will see that money was withdrawn but there will be no tracing where it went after that. I will most likely have my sister then come to me questioning me about it and this is the hard part ill have to lie and play dumb.

Dude - if someone (ie your sister) thinks you stole money from your mam the situation you have described there looks *exactly* like you did steal money from your mam. Cash is very much traceable, do you think a solicitor (or a Garda in the case that you are accused of theft) wouldn't be able to gain access to your bank account and show it going up as your Mothers went down? That is a bad, bad & suspicious looking idea that could land you in all manner of trouble

Pollypistol

Yes you are all making very true and fair points. I'm very uneasy about this situation. Knowing my sisyer she would go to all extreme lengths to get to the bottom of this. I'm going to have to outline all of yhis to my mam. Thanks again for your advice.

freshpopcorn

You could explain to your mam that if you don't do this officially. That in the future when she does pass away your sister could contest the will/say you were skimming her. Which would result in legal costs for yourself.

orthsquel

If your sister is likely to go to extreme lengths.... then it is probably better that your mother does go to a solicitor and outlines what she wants i.e. the house is willed to both of you, but the sum of money is left to you. That way it cannot be disputed with you directly, but instead she'd probably have to go through the courts to increase her inheritance. If your mother feels she cannot be honest with your sister about it all, she doesn't have to be. It's nobody's business what is in the will and she is not obliged to disclose it to either of her children.

I don't think you should feel bad about in relation to how you mother feels about you and your sister. This isn't your idea or suggestion to do it this way, and it's not your fault that your mother has the perception of your sister that she does.

Pollypistol

Spoke with my mam & she said that my sister doesn't even think my mam has a bank account. My mam said she os going to gradually take yhe money out and we've decided that it will go into post office accounts under my childrens names. My mam is saying that my sister does not know that this money exsists and even if the account wad found she'll never know what happened to it and to be honest im starting to think it will be ok and im not feeling as bad about it because this really is what my mam wants. My mam has also said there could possibly come a day where she might need me to give her some of the money back from the children's accounts because you just never know what curve ball life can throw your way...but yes im feeling a lot better and clearer on this matter now thanks.

MissFlitworth

But if you put it into your kids accounts is it not then their money? How do you plan on taking it out? Your plan couldn't sound more shifty. If your sister doesn't know about the money why can't your mam just will it to you and not tell her?
You really need to get your own legal advice before salting money away in other people's bank accounts to hide it

orthsquel

Yeah but it's still more or less the same thing just a different way.... is your mother particularly worried about your sister getting her hands on the money? Like does she feel that maybe when your mother is older that your sister could somehow have control over her finances or that she feels that when she is elderly that she will be bullied into giving her money somehow? i.e. that she fears she will be experiencing elder financial abuse?

If so then there is even more a reason for her to prepare herself financially and take legal measures and means to protect herself in advancing years while she is alive. She may be able to state with a solicitor present in writing who might look after her finances if she is unable to at any point. Which I think is a better idea than withdrawing in small amounts and transferring it to grandchildren's accounts.... which she may not have access to when she needs it, or should it get spent.

I can understand that she might want to do something in what she might see a hassle free way.....and I know she may want to just give you the money as a nice gesture.... but she really, really, really needs to do this a legal way with legal advice that ultimately addresses her concerns she has about her money, especially if she feels she really doesn't want your sister ever having it, or having control over her finances. I can only see it ending somehow in disaster if you go along with what your mother wants. I think to protect everyone here - especially yourself from ever being accused of financially abusing her because of going along with it - you go the legal way and encourage her that way.

PinkLemonade

The money is your mother's to do with how she pleases, but the plan your suggesting is bound to lead you into trouble.

For one thing, if your hiding the source of the money then the tax man won't know that it's from your mother and you'll be liable for the lowest threshold of CAT I'm pretty sure.

Pollypistol

Orthsquel I think it is a combination of all that you have mentioned. I'm going to speak to a solicitor about it thanks.

LegacyUser

You're talking about getting into really dodgy territory here OP. A few potential pitfalls that you might want to think about:

- money going from you mothers account into your kids accounts is totally traceable. You could end up having a horrible tax bill for evading inheritance tax
- God forbid, but if you went through rough times with your partner, I don't know how money in your kids accounts would be treated. Would they be counted as a family asset? Would that impact on any maintenance/settlement?
- what if your mother needs her money back to care for herself in old age / ill health? It will make your deception even more traceable if you have to give the money back
- what if the money sits in the kids accounts until they reach the age where they are the ones who can sign to withdraw it? What if they decide to take hundreds out to buy Xbox or whatever?
- what if you or your partner lose jobs in the future? Will this money be taken into account in assessing any benefits, or medical card if anyone in your family gets ill?
- what if your kids need a grant to let them go to college, will having your mothers money in your account mess up any grant applications?
- what if your sis gets wind of this, by sounds of what you said, she'll go all legal on it and contest it like mad.

I think your mother needs to 'woman up' and set out her will the way she wants it to be. Maybe she thinks she's being good to you in hiding money with you or your kids, but I think there's a hell of a lot of potential pitfalls that you need to think about before you could agree to this.

MouseTail

Pollypistol wrote: »

My mam has also said there could possibly come a day where she might need me to give her some of the money back from the children's accounts because you just never know what curve ball life can throw your way..

This indicates to me that your mother cant actually afford to gift you money, and she may need it in the future.
In this case it would be immoral to take this money. Thank your mother, but don't take cash she cant afford to give away.
I'm puzzled as to why she cannot leave you cash in the will, its straight forward and not contestable, why all this secret cash transfer? No offence OP, but is it possible your mother is suffering early dementia?

keysersoze0330

I know you say that your sister doesn't know about this money or these accounts. However she could easily have come across a post office or bank book and said nothing. I'm sure if she has ever snooped about a bit they might have been in a filing cabinate/private place of your mother's?

If this is the case, and she has even a whiff of there being more money, the way ye are suggesting siphoning money out of said accounts to your accounts looks very suspicious.

Also the kids accounts is a bad idea. For the love of god get her to make a will and get all on paper. It's your mother's money, her wishes.

Wompa1

Don't take the money

Neyite

If this is a new idea of hers, please get her checked by a GP. Acting out of character for an old person can sometimes be indicative of a health issue - often the first sign of dementia or even some medications can cause temporary character changes.

Look, your mother's money is hers to do what she wants with. If she does it properly, she could leave the lot to her cat and your sister would have a hard job to contest it. She needs to go to a solicitor and find out what way she needs to phrase her will so that it will go solely to you. There is a safe and legal way. Her way is NOT the way to do it.

All this talk of gradual transfers and using kids accounts is utter bonkers, and it IS fraudulent. It is money laundering! Banks have computer programmes capable of recognising unusual activity in accounts. Several times when using an atm card abroad I've gotten a call to verify that I took €100 out of a foreign atm. So even the smallest of amounts might get flagged and trigger an investigation.

Revenue crack down very very hard on tax evaders - fines and convictions. This kind of thing could affect your employment, your own future financial arrangements. Would you risk this just to enable your mother to spite your sister?

But revenue do give exemptions on certain gifts and inheritances where you don't have to pay CGT or CAT on transfer of assets, when its done properly and legally.

Bring her to a solicitor.

greengirl31

OP, I was in a similar situation a few years ago …

My Mum was discussing her arrangements and her will and had expressed a wish to leave the majority of her estate to me (sounds like millions but it was it was far from it !!). She had discussed this with me at length and even made some of the same suggestions your mum is making but did not talk to my other siblings. I didn’t want there to be any bad feeling in the family as a result of Mums decision so I talked her out of the moving money around and signing her house over to me but asked her to talk to them and tell them what she wanted to do … I didn’t want my brothers and sisters to think that I had talked her into her decision cause, trust me, families fall out over less !! My mum has since passed away and while there was questions over the fairness over her will, they were happy to accept that it was what our Mum wanted. There will be legal or tax implications from putting the money into other peoples bank accounts and she has to remember, once it’s in someone else’s account, legally, it’s not hers any more regardless of any arrangement made between you and her. It’s may also be perceived as underhand on your part (I know that’s not your intention but anything done in secret is questionable)

My advice would be for your mum to talk to a solicitor and then talk to your sister/other siblings. It’s her house and money and she can do what she likes with it (within reason). A solicitor will also be able to advice how likely any decisions she makes will be contested and advise on how to avoid this . In the event of your mums death, the last thing you’ll want is to have to deal with a family feud over a few quid in a bank account.

Dial Hard

I'm sorry, but both of your mum's plans are pretty much the worst idea I've ever heard. Shuffling money between accounts, hiding it and hoping it won't be noticed is pretty much the best way to guarantee that your sister will get her hands on some of the money your mother is so determined for her not to see, because as soon as your mother dies and the estate is examined, the whole thing will become very obvious and your sister would have a very strong case against you.

Your mother needs to do this above board and properly, through a will. All she has to say is that the house is to be split between both of you but all liquid assets go to you. Simple as. Your sister won't even know about it until your mother has died so this business of your mum being afraid she'll go mad at her is completely moot.

Your sister may well still contest the will, but if it was made properly, when your mother was of sound mind, then she'll have a hard job getting it overturned.

Lux23

I don't really know if your mother should do this to you sister, however if she really doesn't want your sister getting the money, why doesn't she consider willing the money to her grandkids instead. That you share the house with your sister and then her grandkids get a share in the cash for their education?

P. Breathnach

I start from the position that OP's mother can do what she likes with her property (assuming that she is mentally sound). The issue seems to be the avoidance of unpleasantness with OP's sister.

One strategy would be for OP's mother to lodge the money in a joint account with OP, using OP's address for extra privacy. She could then close her existing account. With a joint account, on the death of one party the money passes to the survivor outside the estate, so it should not show on the schedule of assets prepared as part of dealing with the will. Of course it involves trust between the mother and OP, but that seems to be well-established. Any documentation associated with the existing bank account should either be destroyed or removed to OP's home for confidential storage.

An extra degree of confidentiality could be created if OP were nominated as executor of the will.

The kids account is the worst idea of the lot as they will have a much lower threashold for CAT than you will. You can receive 225k tax free from your mother while your children can only get 30k tax free from their grandmother.

The only two ways of doing this totally above board are with her gifting you the money now and having a record that she signed it over or willing you the money

The gifting may be a better option for as it can even be done gradually if you want to minimise the use of your threshold, she can give you 3k every year without eating into your CAT threashold, and remember you will need your threashold for the house also so its important to plan to minimise your tax exposure. It also means it can be left out of the will so the sister doesn't need to know about it.

I think she has the right idea by giving it to you gradually, she just need to take steps to make sure its official and above board.

December2012

For about €150 or less your mother could go to a solicitor and learn how to achieve what she wants (most of here state going to you because your sister is wealthier) in a tax efficient way (fully understanding cgt implications), and have a Will that is defendable in Court.

Best move.