Turns out the novel I'm reading is Christian fiction

iguana

So there I was happily reading what I thought was a historical fiction novel about Action T4 in Nazi Germany. (The programme to forcibly euthanise the permanently disabled during the first years of the second world war.) For the first half of the novel all was fine not the best book in the world but entertaining enough. There was a priest as a main character along with some of the people in his parish but that's fine as in real life various clergy members were very outspoken against T4 and instrumental in forcing Hitler to cancel it so it felt like a natural inclusion.

Then about halfway through the book things got a bit strange. Characters would be thinking to themselves and their thoughts sounded suspiciously like Christian sermonising. This would go on way too long each time and I started skipping paragraphs of this guff before the story would restart. It was really irritating as I've read plenty of novels with religious characters and their religious thoughts don't bother me but this was different. It just didn't read like a character's organic thoughts and instead came across like the character and what they were experiencing was all just plot device to bring them to a place that the author could tell the reader about the great joy of Jesus. Last night I came to a passage where the author managed to make it clear that she thinks the removal of prayer from American public schools is up there with Nazi oppression. I couldn't ignore it any more and googled the book name and 'Christian.' And yup, turns out Christian Historical Fiction is a genre and this is a prime example of it. Reviews state that the religious seremonising is going to ramp up from here. Guess I'm never going to find out who wins that war now.

pauldla

I'd have thought Christianity and fiction are far from being strangers .

Nodin

iguana wrote: »

So there I was happily reading what I thought was a historical fiction novel about Action T4 in Nazi Germany. (The programme to forcibly euthanise the permanently disabled during the first years of the second world war.) For the first half of the novel all was fine not the best book in the world but entertaining enough. There was a priest as a main character along with some of the people in his parish but that's fine as in real life various clergy members were very outspoken against T4 and instrumental in forcing Hitler to cancel it so it felt like a natural inclusion.

Then about halfway through the book things got a bit strange. Characters would be thinking to themselves and their thoughts sounded suspiciously like Christian sermonising. This would go on way too long each time and I started skipping paragraphs of this guff before the story would restart. It was really irritating as I've read plenty of novels with religious characters and their religious thoughts don't bother me but this was different. It just didn't read like a character's organic thoughts and instead came across like the character and what they were experiencing was all just plot device to bring them to a place that the author could tell the reader about the great joy of Jesus. Last night I came to a passage where the author managed to make it clear that she thinks the removal of prayer from American public schools is up there with Nazi oppression. I couldn't ignore it any more and googled the book name and 'Christian.' And yup, turns out Christian Historical Fiction is a genre and this is a prime example of it. Reviews state that the religious seremonising is going to ramp up from here. Guess I'm never going to find out who wins that war now.

Maybe its like a Christian "inglorious bastards" and Jesus shows up and whacks Hitler?

Michael OBrien

Christian Historical fiction pretty much sums up Christianity. Wish they labelled the bible along those lines.

iguana

I skipped to the end to find the main male and female protagonist admitting their love to each other and sharing a kiss. And as they kiss the woman thinks about how glad she is she met him. Not only does she love him but he saved her life, helped her find her family, saved the little girl she was caring for and saved the Jewish woman she was in hiding with who she had come to love as a sister. But even more important than all of that, he had introduced her to Jesus and helped her let Him into her heart. Apparently even the Jewish woman had come to love Jesus over the course of the main protagonist's metaphorical journey to His love. So sorry I missed that part of the story. And it was so sneaky, 200 pages of normal novel and then slowly creeping Jesus. I may never trust another book as long as I live!

Peregrinus

iguana wrote: »

. . .. I may never trust another book as long as I live!

That's the thing with books. They may turn out to contain ideas that are not the ones you already hold.

Best to avoid any danger. Burn them all unread!

antiskeptic

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's the thing with books. They may turn out to contain ideas that are not the ones you already hold.

Best to avoid any danger. Burn them all unread!

:pac:

iguana

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's the thing with books. They may turn out to contain ideas that are not the ones you already hold.

Best to avoid any danger. Burn them all unread!

I don't know, it might be a better option than deliberately misreading something someone wrote just so I could score a cheap point. Especially if I didn't even manage to make the Nazi-book burning connection while doing so.

As I wrote in the OP, I've read plenty of books with religious characters who are motivated by their beliefs and I have no problem with that. What was ridiculous about this book was that the experiences of the characters became cheap plot devices so the author could sermonise to the reader. Their thoughts and actions stopped being either plot driven or character driven and they became a mouthpiece for the author to expound her beliefs. All characters started sounding the same when they thought like this as they stopped being individual characters and became instead some sort of collective reverse Mary Sue. If the author had been a committed atheist who used her characters as nothing more than a mouthpiece to parrot the importance of rejecting religion and how the only path to true goodness was in dismissing the notion of all gods it would have been just as ridiculous. And if the novel had spend the first 200 pages like any regular book before suddenly swing full throttle into paragraph after paragraph of the thinly disguised evangelism from the author it would have been just as irritating and dishonest.

I have to say it was an interesting experience as a curiosity and a revealing insight into how some people think. Especially when the author makes her belief that not being allowed to force her beliefs on children in state schools is the same path as Nazi oppression. But as an example of the somewhat informative entertainment that I look for in an historical novel, it was shít.

kylith

iguana wrote: »

I skipped to the end to find the main male and female protagonist admitting their love to each other and sharing a kiss. And as they kiss the woman thinks about how glad she is she met him. Not only does she love him but he saved her life, helped her find her family, saved the little girl she was caring for and saved the Jewish woman she was in hiding with who she had come to love as a sister. But even more important than all of that, he had introduced her to Jesus and helped her let Him into her heart. Apparently even the Jewish woman had come to love Jesus over the course of the main protagonist's metaphorical journey to His love. So sorry I missed that part of the story. And it was so sneaky, 200 pages of normal novel and then slowly creeping Jesus. I may never trust another book as long as I live!

Ah! Spoilers! I was looking forward to reading that! :pac:

recedite

iguana wrote: »

..creeping Jesus..

Book burning is the only remedy, there is no known cure for it.

silverharp

When you finish that you can get onto ...Mandy De Sandra‘s Kirk Cameron & The Crocoduck of Chaos Magick

probably not written by a christian though


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/07/07/the-kirk-cameroncrocoduck-erotic-novel-youve-been-waiting-for-is-finally-here/

Kirk Cameron has set up his Pray The Gay Away Camp. He is hoping for it to be a hit Reality TV Show. While most boys are open to letting go of their homosexual ways, JJ a young gay man who practices Chaos Magick has other plans. When JJ finishes his spell and unleashes hot Cheese Jesus, a crockoduck, and Boner Stabone, Kirk Cameron will feel passion and some sexy Growing Pains.
A 7,500 word novellete of hot gay orgy action, involving crockoducks, sexy holy cheese, Chaos Magick, oral sex, anal, clone 69ing, and Stigmata hand sex.

pauldla

silverharp wrote: »

When you finish that you can get onto ...Mandy De Sandra‘s Kirk Cameron & The Crocoduck of Chaos Magick

probably not written by a christian though


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/07/07/the-kirk-cameroncrocoduck-erotic-novel-youve-been-waiting-for-is-finally-here/

'JJ' is a Chinese slang term for penis.

Just sayin'.

Peregrinus

iguana wrote: »

I don't know, it might be a better option than deliberately misreading something someone wrote just so I could score a cheap point . . .

It was a joke, Iguana. Following on from your own joke about never trusting another book again.

"Christian historical fiction" sounds dreadful, just dreadful. But, hey, if you never read any books that turn out to be dreadful they you're not reading widely enough.

iguana

Peregrinus wrote: »

It was a joke, Iguana. Following on from your own joke about never trusting another book again.

"Christian historical fiction" sounds dreadful, just dreadful. But, hey, if you never read any books that turn out to be dreadful they you're not reading widely enough.

Sorry. I'm not getting nearly enough sleep these days.:o

Delirium

Read the first 2 (of 12! :eek:) of the Left Behind series. Christian fiction about the world experiencing the rapture.

I figured I'd give it a chance as was a huge seller in the States and the rapture sounded something Stephen King would come up with if you subtract the God aspect.

It was bloody painful reading. Most frustrating aspect was constant stopping to pray as people were in danger. God was like some sort of genie. The same God that is torturing the rest of the population not taken in the rapture.

Even knowing what the rapture was, it was very hard to root for God/ protagonists.

And there was cool stuff to play with in the rapture. Demons, a sword that could cut through anything, this sounds like things that make for good fiction.

But the authors managed to make a mess of it. Only time I've ever abandoned a book or series.

If that series was a metric for Christian fiction, then it's a genre I'll be avoiding.

Peregrinus

The gold standard for Christian fiction is, I suggest, CS Lewis's Narnia books, which lots of boardies will have read. (Obviously that's Christian fantasy fiction rather than Christian historical fiction. Plus, they're aimed at children, not adults. But, hey.) You either liked them or you didn't, but they're not rubbish, IMO.

So I wouldn't say that all forms of Christian literature are necessarily dreadful. But I have to say that anyone I ever met who read any of the Left Behind books agreed with Delirium - they are dreadful, by all accounts.

Peregrinus

xxx

Bandana boy

I started reading the Left behind books years ago (when there was only 3 of them) , I did not know that it had a christian slant until the anti-christ turned up , I was convinced it was aliens up to that point. It was a pretty bad book but the set up was brilliant and could have been awesome even with the christian themes if it was not so preachy.

I gave up before I finished the third book as I realised we were not going to get some proper end of times battle but rather an examination of how important faith was .

Akrasia

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's the thing with books. They may turn out to contain ideas that are not the ones you already hold.

Best to avoid any danger. Burn them all unread!

I think the irony here is that people who choose to read 'Christian historical fiction' are self censoring themselves because they don't want to be exposed to any ideas that might challenge their Christian beliefs

(or worse, it's parents attempting to control what their children can read)

Peregrinus

Yes, if they choose to read only Christian fiction.

But, not to be mischievous or anything, is choosing to read a particular genre in order to avoid being exposed to ideas that challenge the ones you already hold all that different from choosing not to read a particular genre in order to avoid being exposed to ideas that challenge the ones you already hold? Not reading "Left Behind" because it's Christian is a bit of a cop-out, and certainly not admirable. Not reading "Left Behind" because, from a literary point of view, it's a steaming pile of horse manure is fine.

iguana

It is a tricky one. I first read Ender's Game as a teenager and I absolutely loved it. It's a really good piece of science fiction and pretty much universally recognised as so. However I do feel a bit ambivalent about it now as Orson Scott Card has many personal viewpoints that I find repugnant and some of those sentiments seeped into the book. However in the case of Ender's Game those viewpoints are consistent with the plot and characterisation and not hard pressed on the reader as certain truths. It's a good book and if someone asked my opinion on it I would recommend it. And I'd probably avoid mentioning Card's bigoted views so they could judge the book on it's own merits.

I've read a couple of the sequels following Ender and I didn't enjoy them as much but I'm tempted to read the sequels set on earth as the reviews I've read have been favourable. But knowing what I do about Card, I can't say with certainty that I'd enjoy them as much as I did the first book because sometimes it's hard to separate art from the artist.

Hotblack Desiato

iguana wrote: »

Then about halfway through the book things got a bit strange. ... I couldn't ignore it any more and googled the book name and 'Christian.' And yup, turns out Christian Historical Fiction is a genre and this is a prime example of it.

I just find it hilarious that an A&A regular got suckered into reading 200 pages of 'one of the prime examples of Christian Historical Fiction'

:pac: :pac: :pac: :pac:

joseph brand

iguana's face, upon the realisation that they have been reading christian propaganda/ fiction*.



* Is there a need to put 'fiction' after 'christian'? I think it's known as a redundancy, or tautology.

Frank Bullitt

Nodin wrote: »

Maybe its like a Christian "inglorious bastards" and Jesus shows up and whacks Hitler?

"I'm bringing out eh bear-jew" could still be used so!

iguana

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I just find it hilarious that an A&A regular got suckered into reading 200 pages of 'one of the prime examples of Christian Historical Fiction'

:pac: :pac: :pac: :pac:

The perils of e-reading. I had read a couple of WW2 novels and this popped up as a recommendation, so I read the blurb, thought it sounded interesting and downloaded it. If I had been found a hardcopy of it in a shop it probably would have had a logo or something on the back of it to let me know it's genre. But I missed that on the nook.:(

joseph brand wrote: »

iguana's face, upon the realisation that they have been reading christian propaganda/ fiction*.



* Is there a need to put 'fiction' after 'christian'? I think it's known as a redundancy, or tautology.

Nearly right. Instead of a bat though, I was holding my son who was breastfeeding to sleep, so I was pretty much trapped with it.

Zillah

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not reading "Left Behind" because it's Christian is a bit of a cop-out, and certainly not admirable. Not reading "Left Behind" because, from a literary point of view, it's a steaming pile of horse manure is fine.

Aren't they one and the same? Can one really write a novel designed to proselytise religious views - with characters and themes which amount, essentially, to a theistic circle jerk - and have it be good? Comical demonisation of atheists, deus ex machina via prayer, acquisition of faith replacing genuine character development - can these ever make for good fiction?

There's a huge difference between a novel with Christian themes - Narnia - and "Christian fiction", which amounts to ham-fisted evangelism.

pauldla

Zillah wrote: »

Aren't they one and the same? Can one really write a novel designed to proselytise religious views - with characters and themes which amount, essentially, to a theistic circle jerk - and have it be good? Comical demonisation of atheists, deus ex machina via prayer, acquisition of faith replacing genuine character development - can these ever make for good fiction?

There's a huge difference between a novel with Christian themes - Narnia - and "Christian fiction", which amounts to ham-fisted evangelism.

Doesn't George Orwell in one of his essays reflect on the impossibility of a good Catholic writing a good novel? I'm not well-read enough to challenge him, though now I think of it wasn't Tolkien a Catholic?

robindch

pauldla wrote: »

[...] wasn't Tolkien a Catholic?

Yes, both Tolkien and his friend, CS Lewis, were prominent catholics - Tolkien however, avoided allegory in his prose, much as Lewis didn't.

Lewis was also responsible for The Screwtape Letters which brings new meaning to the word "lame".

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

Yes, both Tolkien and his friend, CS Lewis, were prominent catholics . . .

Nitpick: Lewis was an Anglican.

Zillah wrote: »

Aren't they one and the same? Can one really write a novel designed to proselytise religious views - with characters and themes which amount, essentially, to a theistic circle jerk - and have it be good? . . . There's a huge difference between a novel with Christian themes - Narnia - and "Christian fiction", which amounts to ham-fisted evangelism.

I think it's going to depend on what you define as "Christian fiction", isn't it? I'd argue that the Narnia books are intentionally evangelistic - whether they're ham-fisted or not depends on the personal taste of the reader, maybe.

But, of course, when Lewis was writing nobody had ever heard of "Christian fiction". The truth is that this label was coined relatively recently to describe a much narrower range than simply fiction which is intentionally Christian and seeks to persuade. I don't know if many boardies have read, say, Marilyn Robinson - fiction, and very explicitly Christian, but nobody would dream of categorising it as "Christian fiction". In the same way every one of Jane Austen's novels deals with a romance and ends with a marriage, but we don't consider them "romantic fiction".

I think "Christian fiction" refers not just to a subset of fiction that is Christian, but to a further subset that embraces only a particular kind of American Protestant Evangelical Christianity that is associated with social conservatism. And furthermore it respects certain conventions in how it deals with sex (discretely), how it resolves dilemmas (happily) and how it addresses questions of doubt (always resolved in favour of faith). Which is why most Christian fiction isn't "Christian Fiction".

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nitpick: Lewis was an Anglican.

I sit corrected - though there's a fair amount of catholicism evident in his writings, and I suspect Tolkien might have helped that along.

Anyhow, here's Lewis making a very shaky case indeed for christianity:

Peregrinus

More nitpicking: that's a case for theism, not a case for Christianity.

But, yes, it's shaky. He talks about "trusting the arguments leading to atheism" as though the default was theism, and you have to be reasoned away from that, or persuaded away from it in some other way. But in fact the default is atheism; if you have no opinions at all on this subject and are unable to construct an argument one way or the other, or to evaluate any arguments offered by others, then you're an atheist. It's not something that you have to think yourself into.

seamus

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think it's going to depend on what you define as "Christian fiction", isn't it? I'd argue that the Narnia books are intentionally evangelistic - whether they're ham-fisted or not depends on the personal taste of the reader, maybe.

Or, indeed The Da Vinci Code.

As much as the RCC had a conniption about it, in order to immerse oneself in the book requires a lot of assumptions about the existence of various peoples and organisations. So it could very much be described as "Christian fiction".

Michael OBrien

robindch wrote: »

I sit corrected - though there's a fair amount of catholicism evident in his writings, and I suspect Tolkien might have helped that along.

Anyhow, here's Lewis making a very shaky case indeed for christianity:

Wow, that is truly flawed thinking (pun intended) by Lewis.
It is packed with errors and a total failure to think through the issues, including from the perspective that if there is no god, and his view that that means his thinking is flawed, then his thinking there IS a god, would also be as flawed as thinking there was none.
Basically he really wanted there to be one, so he could justify his own belief in retrospect. Circular reasoning at its finest.

robindch

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Circular reasoning at its finest.

The orbit of that piece of circular reasoning is so compact that it's a wonder Lewis didn't disappear up his own bum after producing it.

Zillah

robindch wrote: »

I sit corrected - though there's a fair amount of catholicism evident in his writings, and I suspect Tolkien might have helped that along.

Anyhow, here's Lewis making a very shaky case indeed for christianity:

Gosh that's embarrassing.

BlaasForRafa

Zillah wrote: »

Gosh that's embarrassing.

He probably thought of that argument right after he created furry jesus.