Death in the family - Bills?

_Kaiser_

Morning all,

After a long illness my mother passed away a few weeks ago, leaving behind not-very-much as she'd been unable to work for a long time before this.

She was living in a council-owned house with my sister and with all of the bills (rent, ESB, bins, TV etc etc) in her name. These were paid mostly by DD from her own account.

With her passing, my sister is still living in the same house (for the moment anyway.. presumably the Council will review the tenancy now), so the question is what is she responsible for taking over/paying off and what can be closed given the circumstances and setup again in her own name if needed.

She spoke to the ESB yesterday for example as there's an outstanding balance she wanted to talk about as she hasn't the money right now (towards the end my mother required things like oxygen machines which drove the bills up) and the agent suggested doing nothing as the bills aren't in her name so wouldn't affect her - she thought herself that this didn't sound right, but it immediately raised warning flags for me when she told me last night.

I've spoken to Sky myself for example, and they have confirmed that the a/c can be closed/transferred under the circumstances if she wishes.. I'm assuming most are like this but things like core/essential utilities I'm not sure of and wanted to check first before my sister goes any further.

So, can anyone advise - or point me to relevant links - what a family member is responsible for in the event of a parents death like this?

Cheers

P. Breathnach

My sympathies on your loss.

Just about everything you need to know is here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/en/act/pub/0027/

In a nutshell, debts due by the deceased are debts of the deceased's estate. If the estate is worth nothing (or no more than the cost of a funeral) then there is nothing available to pay the debts. They do not transfer to another person.

I suppose you need to clarify for yourself what you mean by "not-very-much". If it amounts to some well-worn furniture and her personal effects, it might be deemed to have no commercial value. Savings, even modest amounts, or good pieces of jewellery might change the scenario.

Pragmatically, service suppliers will not pursue an estate if they are given a plausible account that shows that there is little or nothing there.

From your sister's POV, she should ask suppliers to close accounts, and apply to open new accounts in her own name. She should not accept the transfer of outstanding balances.

seamus

P. Breathnach wrote: »

From your sister's POV, she should ask suppliers to close accounts, and apply to open new accounts in her own name. She should not accept the transfer of outstanding balances.

Correct. In reality the executor should take care of dealing with these outstanding amounts. Your sister should just ring them up and open a new account in her own name, letting them know the previous account owner is deceased. Some providers may claim that she's obliged to take over the account or similar nonsense, but that's not correct. When I moved in recently one provider tried to claim that before they could close the previous account I was obliged to provide forwarding details for the previous owner. Eh, no.

In effect she is the new occupant/owner of the property and therefore any debts accrued by the previous occupant/owner are not her concern.

However, what she should do is let the executor know about all of the accounts which have been closed/transferred. The executor should follow up on all of these to ensure that the accounts are closed completely - many will leave the account open unless a death certificate is supplied, which may cause annoyance when that provider comes looking for their money in a years' time.

_Kaiser_

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My sympathies on your loss.

Just about everything you need to know is here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/en/act/pub/0027/

In a nutshell, debts due by the deceased are debts of the deceased's estate. If the estate is worth nothing (or no more than the cost of a funeral) then there is nothing available to pay the debts. They do not transfer to another person.

I suppose you need to clarify for yourself what you mean by "not-very-much". If it amounts to some well-worn furniture and her personal effects, it might be deemed to have no commercial value. Savings, even modest amounts, or good pieces of jewellery might change the scenario.

Pragmatically, service suppliers will not pursue an estate if they are given a plausible account that shows that there is little or nothing there.

From your sister's POV, she should ask suppliers to close accounts, and apply to open new accounts in her own name. She should not accept the transfer of outstanding balances.

Thanks for this.

My mam wouldn't have anything of value. She was on an invalidity pension, no cars, property, savings or other assets like that. Just the contents of her current account really which would have been the last payment of her pension. The funeral was actually paid for by her parents. She didn't have a will as there's nothing really to leave and the assumption was whatever little there was would be divided between us I think.

It's a relief to hear that my sister then isn't liable after all as although she works, it's not much more than minimum wage herself.

Thanks again

P. Breathnach

Might I make some practical suggestions?

As your mother left nothing of real value, and there wasn't enough to cover the cost of a funeral, there seems to be no need for anybody to apply to the Probate Office for Letters of Administration.

I know nothing about your sister as a person but, as she resides in your mother's home, she is in a sense in the firing line of the creditors. It might work better if you stepped forward and dealt with things (I also know from seeing your posts here that you can string sentences together fairly well).

I agree with seamus's suggestion that you forward a copy of the death certificate to each creditor. Accompany it with a simple statement that she died without leaving enough to cover the costs of a funeral, and tell them that there was no will, and there will be no application for Letters of Administration because there is nothing to administer.

Fred Swanson

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P. Breathnach

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Being realistic, there is not much they can do.

blackwhite

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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OP has already said there's as good as nothing in the estate, other than her last pension payment sitting in a current account.

At the very worst, they could pursue the estate for that (assuming that there aren't some hidden assets that the OP doesn't know about).

brian_t

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I agree with seamus's suggestion that you forward a copy of the death certificate to each creditor. Accompany it with a simple statement that she died without leaving enough to cover the costs of a funeral, and tell them that there was no will, and there will be no application for Letters of Administration because there is nothing to administer.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I interpreted the above question as asking would the Creditors accept the word of the OP that there was nothing of value left in the mothers estate and leave it at that.

Fred Swanson

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P. Breathnach

brian_t wrote: »

I interpreted the above question as asking would the Creditors accept the word of the OP that there was nothing of value left in the mothers estate and leave it at that.

Non-lawyer's opinion follows:

If OP has taken the trouble to write to them along the lines I suggested, a creditor might attempt to sue OP "as Personal Representative of xxx deceased".

As there is no will and no application for Letters of Administration, OP can turn up in court and say that he is not the Personal Representative. That means he is home free. He might offer to assist the court and the unsatisfied creditor by explaining why there has been no application for Letters of Administration, and give the court an account of the deceased's assets and liabilities starting with "Assets: 1 week's pension money + personal effects of no commercial value - Total €x" and "Liabilities: cost of funeral: <an amount greater than €x>".

At this point, the creditor might just give up and walk away.

What is the alternative? If the creditor believes that he is being bilked, and no family member will seek Letters of Administration, then the creditor can ask the court to appoint him as Administrator. That's a bit of a big deal, and more bother than a commercially-motivated service supplier such as a gas company would take on. The game is not worth the candle.

Owryan

Went through this process myself and to be fair i found most of the companies i had to contact very good to deal with.

The ESB asked for a copy of the death cert and wrote off the outstanding debt up till the date they recieved the cert.

Sky were the same, which surprised me.

Contact the bank(s) and they should put a stop on any outgoing debits or standing orders.

If your mother was recieving a SW payment make sure to contact them to cancel it. Just be aware sometimes they can look for any payments made after your mother passed away returned.