Looking at Dual Nationality due to Brexit

theirishhitman

Having read an article yesterday about migrants applying for dual nationality I'm wondering how having a dual nationality works.

The article was headlined "Rush for dual-nationality passports as EU migrants fear Brexit" in The Guardian (cannot supply URL as a new user)

I'm an Irish citizen living in Scotland the past 6 years. I've got my National Insurance, I've voted and even done jury duty. Both my private and state pension will be here. I have a decent job which I was lucky to get 6 years ago so I see myself staying here for the long haul.

My question is is in 2 parts.

1:Am I letting the article above scare me about the future in the UK?

2: Can I actually have 2 passports and if so would there be a date in the future where I would have to choose?

I don't want to give up my Irish Passport but what I do here is not replicated back in Ireland and after six years I also have ties here as well.

Peregrinus

Ireland and the UK are both completely relaxed about dual nationality. If you qualify for British citizenship then you can go ahead and be naturalized s a British citizen; it won't affect your status as an Irish citizen in any way. You can hold two passports and you can keep them both for as long as you want.

Speedwell

You're letting it scare you. My husband has dual UK/Irish citizenship and my friend's husband has dual UK/US citizenship, and if I bothered to get all the citizenships for which I qualify by ancestry according to the appropriate national laws, I would have triple US/Hungarian/Italian citizenship (to which I will add Irish once I've been here for the necessary amount of time).

Yes, you will have one passport per nationality; you can under certain circumstances have two UK passports at the same time, I hear. No, you will not have to choose between them. That's not how dual nationality works. Even the US, that technically doesn't allow its citizens to have dual citizenship, has stopped bothering to enforce the rule and it really only matters for things like military security clearances. You can lose citizenships, but it's not easy to do and usually someone has to make a case out of it.

Don't worry about the news, in any case. You will know long before time what they intend to do.

FreudianSlippers

Do Irish people living in the UK really need to worry given the "special" treatment of Irish people on foot of the Good Friday Agreement and the Immigration Act 1971

Speedwell

It depends where and when they and their parents were born. My forum account is too new to post links, but I had to review this on both the UK and Irish end when I applied for my husband's green card to the US and we had to file US income taxes (for the less than a year he actually wound up spending in the US).

Peregrinus

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Do Irish people living in the UK really need to worry given the "special" treatment of Irish people on foot of the Good Friday Agreement and the Immigration Act 1971

Almost certainly not. But a Brexit is of course unexplored country and a lot of things would be up for review, and if by then UKIP were still a problem and the Tories were scared of being outflanked on national identity etc etc etc, then it's not utterly impossible that in the review of the legal status of non-nationals in the UK the highly privileged position of Irish citizens would get caught up in the mess. To my mind, even if the British do leave the EU its very unlikely that Irish citizens in the UK would lose their rights and privileges. But it's not, strictly speaking, impossible.

theirishhitman

Thanks all for the advice. It certainly gives me something to think about. I've a feeling that the Brexit is just a voter sop and the majority will vote no. But at the same time having a dual nationality where it doesn't really cost me anything could be handy as a back-up.

coylemj

Whatever you think of the hype put about by UKIP and reactionary rags like the Daily Mail, the notion that the UK will simply boot out people with Irish passports if they vote to leave the EU is just so far-fetched that it is simply not worth considering. Bob Geldof (Irish citizen living in the UK) for starters would have something to say about it so don't think that it will just happen, it won't.

In fact IIRC during the last election campaign, the question (of the Paddies in GB) was put to Nigel Farage and he instantly dismissed the idea that the Irish would be kicked out.

It's an unspoken fact of life that the Brits don't attach the tag 'foreigner' to anyone who is white and speaks English as his/her first language.

Fred Swanson

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FreudianSlippers

Farage has even said that he wouldn't advocate kicking Irish people out. Sure we'll be grand lads :pac:

theirishhitman

coylemj wrote: »

It's an unspoken fact of life that the Brits don't attach the tag 'foreigner' to anyone who is white and speaks English as his/her first language.

That's true enough. A bunch of guys at work where talking about all the immigrants "flooding into the country". I said I'm an immigrant as well don't you know. The look of confusion on their faces was something to behold

Speedwell

theirishhitman wrote: »

That's true enough. A bunch of guys at work where talking about all the immigrants "flooding into the country". I said I'm an immigrant as well don't you know. The look of confusion on their faces was something to behold

I get the same exact thing from my husband's family. :P

Peregrinus

theirishhitman wrote: »

Thanks all for the advice. It certainly gives me something to think about. I've a feeling that the Brexit is just a voter sop and the majority will vote no. But at the same time having a dual nationality where it doesn't really cost me anything could be handy as a back-up.

Oh, it will cost you something. They don't naturalize you for free. At the moment I think it's about a thousand pounds sterling to apply for naturalization as a British Citizen. If your application is successful and you want an actual British Passport, you'll have to apply for that separately and pay the usual fees.

Dandelion6

Speedwell wrote: »

Even the US, that technically doesn't allow its citizens to have dual citizenship, has stopped bothering to enforce the rule

There's no rule to enforce. Dual citizenship isn't prohibited under any law of the US.

In terms of Ireland, there is no mechanism by which a natural-born citizen can non-voluntarily lose their citizenship. If you're a naturalised Irish citizen, then taking on another citizenship is grounds for revocation of your Irish nationality, but even then it's not automatic.

Peregrinus

Dandelion6 wrote: »

In terms of Ireland, there is no mechanism by which a natural-born citizen can non-voluntarily lose their citizenship. If you're a naturalised Irish citizen, then taking on another citizenship is grounds for revocation of your Irish nationality, but even then it's not automatic.

Not only is it not automatic; so far as I know, in practice it has never been done.

on_my_oe

theirishhitman wrote: »

That's true enough. A bunch of guys at work where talking about all the immigrants "flooding into the country". I said I'm an immigrant as well don't you know. The look of confusion on their faces was something to behold

It works both ways - I was standing a Ryanair queue at Gatwick during heady days of the Celtic Tiger once with an older Irish man of passing years (they had advanced right past him). He was giving out about the Polish invasion and asked me what I thought about 'all these migrants'. Coming from the Southern part of earth, I suggested I shouldn't have an opinion... "You're an Australoan, that's Irish really". :rolleyes:

Back on topic, I don't think the Irish and British will hold against each other if Brexit happens. I do know a lot of EU folk in the UK considering dual citizenship 'just in case'. My major worry about the Brexit is will English be dropped as a key EU language - if so, will they replace it with Polish

GerardKeating

Dandelion6 wrote: »

There's no rule to enforce. Dual citizenship isn't prohibited under any law of the US.

In terms of Ireland, there is no mechanism by which a natural-born citizen can non-voluntarily lose their citizenship. If you're a naturalised Irish citizen, then taking on another citizenship is grounds for revocation of your Irish nationality, but even then it's not automatic.

Some countries (Philippines for example) do not recognized "dual allegiance" so if a naturalized Irish citizen later naturalised as a Philippine citizen, Philippine law considers them to have renounced any previous naturalisation.

I am no sure if Ireland would recognize a foreign renouncing of citizenship however..

coylemj

GerardKeating wrote: »

Some countries (Philippines for example) do not recognized "dual allegiance" so if a naturalized Irish citizen later naturalised as a Philippine citizen, Philippine law considers them to have renounced any previous naturalisation.

Which would have zero practical effect unless they prevented you from leaving the country since you would still have your Irish passport.

GerardKeating

coylemj wrote: »

Which would have zero practical effect unless they prevented you from leaving the country since you would still have your Irish passport.

Philippines has exit immigration, so it could.

Peregrinus

The Phillipines doesn't prevent its own citizens from leaving the country, so that shouldn't be a problem.

The main issue with the Phillipines not recognizing your Irish citizenship is that, if you are arrested in the Phillipines, they will not offer you access to Irish/EU consular support.

It could go further, though. Some countries do not merely not recognize your original citizenship when you are naturalized; they require you to renounce your former nationality. (I have no idea whether the Phillipines is one of these countries, but to illustrate this let's assume it is.) And Irish law accommodates this; if you renounce your Irish citizenship in order to acquire the citizenship of another country there is a process for that, and Irish law will recognize your renunciation and give effect to it.

So if you're in this situation and you are arrested in the Phillipines, it's not just a matter of the Phillipine authorities not affording you access to Irish or EU consular assistance; the Irish and EU authorities won't offer you any assistance.

ancapailldorcha

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Farage has even said that he wouldn't advocate kicking Irish people out. Sure we'll be grand lads :pac:

One of UKIP's MPs has spoken about the "special relationship" between the two nations. I'm in a similar position. I've been here for over 4 years now but I can't see Brexit have any such consequences for Irish residents. We even get to vote in their elections.

conorh91

Peregrinus wrote: »

if you renounce your Irish citizenship in order to acquire the citizenship of another country there is a process for that, and Irish law will recognize your renunciation and give effect to it.

So if you're in this situation and you are arrested in the Phillipines, it's not just a matter of the Phillipine authorities not affording you access to Irish or EU consular assistance; the Irish and EU authorities won't offer you any assistance.

You can make a declaration of alienage, but you cannot renounce your right to Irish citizenship, or at least not if you were born on the island.

Frankly, as far as I can see, a large point of the alienage provision seems to be to offer relief to outraged cranks. But why, I do not know.

I say that because I am not aware of any jurisdiction that requires evidence of alienage as a condition of citizenship (nor have I looked very hard), rather a declaration of renunciation of prior citizenship seems to suffice. Which obviously would have no effect as far as the Irish authorities are concerned, making this Phillipines case an even more improbable scenario.

Fred Swanson

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conorh91

Yes, I think that in itself is quite common. The particular question is whether their test of renunciation goes so far as to require a Declaration of Alienage, or whether it is necessary merely to swear a renunciation under oath in that jurisdiction, etc.

But the broader issue is the irrelevance of such a Declaration of Alienage anyway, since a person born in Ireland may reverse the Declaration quite easily, whether they live overseas or not. Irish citizenship is only latent for these people, it it never extinguished. Which is why it seems like an exercise in humouring cranks.