Gardai being abusive towards a 15 year old

crazyspud225

Ok so I know a 15 year old who went on the sauce.
He was falling and rising and a member of the Gardai Siochanna had their eyes on him.
after a few hours the Garda grabbed him. He got startled and took chase. He ran about 100 metres before a garda tackled him to the ground and cuffed him. They hit him a few times even though he wasnt resisting arrest. They put him in the back of a squad car and took him to the station. He provided them with his details and his parents contact info. They said they were cautioning him and would call to his house shortly after. Can anyone provide the kid with some advice? (He wasnt told why he was being arrested, he was just grabbed and wasn't read his rights) Anyoneone know the kids legal rights?

dubscottie

crazyspud225 wrote: »

Ok so I know a 15 year old who went on the sauce.
He was falling and rising and a member of the Gardai Siochanna had their eyes on him.
after a few hours the Garda grabbed him. He got startled and took chase. He ran about 100 metres before a garda tackled him to the ground and cuffed him. They hit him a few times even though he wasnt resisting arrest. They put him in the back of a squad car and took him to the station. He provided them with his details and his parents contact info. They said they were cautioning him and would call to his house shortly after. Can anyone provide the kid with some advice? (He wasnt told why he was being arrested, he was just grabbed and wasn't read his rights) Anyoneone know the kids legal rights?

15 year old drunk and acting the maggot. Then runs. The Garda were right IMO. He was lifted as he was underage and drunk. They have a duty of care to make sure the drunk kid gets home safe.

Pat Mustard

dubscottie wrote: »

15 year old drunk and acting the maggot. Then runs. The Garda were right IMO.

Ah come on. Of themselves, running from Gardai and getting drunk do not deserve a beating.

The OP says that the guy wasn't resisting arrest so if that is correct, I don't see why he would need to be hit.

The advice would be to see a solicitor, especially where an assault has been outlined and there is a possibility of follow-up by Gardai in relation to the matter.

Peregrinus

Did you witness this, or are you getting the details of what happened from him?

'Cause, you know, he was drunk. Falling-down drunk. Over a period of several hours. You may accept his evidence about what happened but a court is not likely to.

The only thing you say that points to any infringement of his rights is this:

"They hit him a few times even though he wasn't resisting arrest."

Your first problem is evidence. How do you know this happened? And, more to the point, how would you show that it had happened in order to pursue a complaint? His own evidence won't be enough, for the reason just pointed out. Are there other witnesses who will testify? Witnesses who were sober at the time? Bruises or other injuries consistent only with support? Since he'd spent several hours falling over in the street any bruises won't have much probative value.

As for the claim that he wasn't resisting arrest, I can only note that he had already run way. How do you know he had stopped resisting arrest when he was hit (if he was hit?) And do you have evidence that would satisfy the complaints authority, or a court?

On the basis of what you have said here, I don't think the boy can make a complaint stand up. You need a sober, independent witness who will testify that the boy was assaulted after he had ceased resisting arrest. If you haven't got that, I think you should focus on the bigger issue, which is teaching the boy some common sense.

syklops

He was falling and rising and a member of the Gardai Siochanna had their eyes on him.
after a few hours the Garda grabbed him

Something doesnt add up.

Peregrinus

syklops wrote: »

Something doesnt add up.

Well, the inference would be that after a few hours he had moved on from simply falling over drunk (which is not an offence) to doing something which amounts to an offence - most probably the offence of being drunk and disorderly. That could be making noise, lying down in the carriageway, causing a disturbance, etc, etc.

conorh91

I don't see the point in any of us trying to play Sherlock. GSOC are the men for the monocles and deerstalkers.

http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/complaints/complaints.html

challengemaster

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, the inference would be that after a few hours he had moved on from simply falling over drunk (which is not an offence) to doing something which amounts to an offence - most probably the offence of being drunk and disorderly. That could be making noise, lying down in the carriageway, causing a disturbance, etc, etc.

Do you really think the gardaí are going to sit watching a 15 year old for a few hours of their shift?

Peregrinus

No, of course not. I understood from the OP that he was clocked by the guards at a relatively early stage of the proceedings but they did nothing because he wasn't causing a problem. They went about their business. Then, some hours later, he was causing a problem, so they collared him.

What other explanation could there be?

seamus

Drunk 15 year old runs from the Gardai, then claims he wasn't resisting and that he got a few digs. Doesn't know why he was arrested.

Sounds like said kid was drunker than he'll admit to his parents.

He has the right to make a complaint to GSOC and to employ a solicitor if he's going to be charged.

Although the Gardai can't technically arrest drunk people and hold them till they sober up, they can arrest you on public order offences, hold you till you sober up and then just not bother pursuing it.

P. Breathnach

Peregrinus wrote: »

...
What other explanation could there be?

That a drunk 15 year old is an unreliable witness.

Peregrinus

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That a drunk 15 year old is an unreliable witness.

Well, true. But I don't see any reason to doubt the basic story that he was visibly drunk for some time before the guards collared him. There's nothing remotely unlikely about that claim, is there?

Pro Hoc Vice

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Ah come on. Of themselves, running from Gardai and getting drunk do not deserve a beating.

The OP says that the guy wasn't resisting arrest so if that is correct, I don't see why he would need to be hit.

The advice would be to see a solicitor, especially where an assault has been outlined and there is a possibility of follow-up by Gardai in relation to the matter.

Is not running from AGS the very definition of resisting arrest. The OP also says AGS had their eye on the person so it would seem from that they took action after something happened.

It's also amazes me that the word of a admitted intoxicated person would be assumed to be factually correct.

Pro Hoc Vice

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, true. But I don't see any reason to doubt the basic story that he was visibly drunk for some time before the guards collared him. There's nothing remotely unlikely about that claim, is there?

That just makes me believe that AGS had the situation under observation and as long as no harm being done taking a soft approach it would be likely something set off AGS approaching the person and caused him to run, that is enough to arrest in my opinion.

Pro Hoc Vice

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, the inference would be that after a few hours he had moved on from simply falling over drunk (which is not an offence) to doing something which amounts to an offence - most probably the offence of being drunk and disorderly. That could be making noise, lying down in the carriageway, causing a disturbance, etc, etc.

It could just as easily be bring drunk and a danger to self or other or even to traffic.

ScouseMouse

If he is anything like the poor innocent drunk 15 year olds that keep attacking me, I hope the gardai follow through.

Zambia

Never run from the police as essentially if you stop they tend to follow through. It's like grabbing the ball in a rugby match. As long as you have the ball its gonna hurt.

Peregrinus

Zambia wrote: »

. . As long as you have the ball its gonna hurt.

As long as you are the ball it's gonna hurt!

Little CuChulainn

The kid will be visited by the Juvenile Liason Officer for his home area. He will most likely get a caution, assuming he admits to the offence.

Based on your story the offence is likely Section 4, 19 or 24 of the Public Order Act.

callaway92

OP is 15 y/o kid. Looking for some sort of "get out of jail" excuse when his parents hear about this?

newacc2015

IMO the AGS will let a lot of **** slide from minors and I mean a lot. They arent worth the work. I cant recall how many times, my friends got caught underage drinking (Im talking nearly every weekend in public places). The only one who got in trouble once, was one who tried to attack the garda and resisted arrest.

I have a feeling you arent getting the truth. The Gardai dont randomly hit minors. I have feeling that 15 year old individual, has a history they might be keeping quiet about.

desbrook

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, the inference would be that after a few hours he had moved on from simply falling over drunk (which is not an offence) to doing something which amounts to an offence - most probably the offence of being drunk and disorderly. That could be making noise, lying down in the carriageway, causing a disturbance, etc, etc.

Simple drunkeness is an offence is it not ?

newacc2015

desbrook wrote: »

Simple drunkeness is an offence is it not ?

Drunk and disorderly is one. Generally Gardai wont press charges. Its usually a night in the drunk tank, which is usually to just to protect the individual

hatrickpatrick

I'm sick of seeing the phrase "a few digs" thrown around in cases like this. No level of assault should be considered acceptable unless it is necessary to subdue somebody.

I agree that in this case there's unlikely to be evidence either way, but still worth making a complain to GSOC. But I do wish people would cop on and get over the idea that what essentially amounts to corporal punishment is acceptable from the Gardai. It isn't.

twowheelsonly

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm sick of seeing the phrase "a few digs" thrown around in cases like this. No level of assault should be considered acceptable unless it is necessary to subdue somebody.

I agree that in this case there's unlikely to be evidence either way, but still worth making a complain to GSOC. But I do wish people would cop on and get over the idea that what essentially amounts to corporal punishment is acceptable from the Gardai. It isn't.

Allegedy a few digs were thrown - after he 'wasn't resisting arrest' and was only running away because he was startled.. The only witness appears to be the OP who made his first ever post and disappeared again (probably fell asleep drunk as 15 year olds tend to do !!!)

In my case I wish people would cop on and get over the idea that every little incident with the Gardai has to be the subject of a complaint to GSOC. The Gardai are not there to give out hugs and cuddles, that's someone elses job.

Duke O Smiley

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

but still worth making a complain to GSOC.

lol'd

Peregrinus

desbrook wrote: »

Simple drunkeness is an offence is it not ?

No, it's not.

As newacc2015, the "entry-level" drunkenness offence is "drunk and disorderly", but to commit that you do have to be at least a little bit disorderly.

If you're so drunk that you are danger to yourself or to others - e.g. you might wander into traffic - but are not actually disorderly, the guards are reasonably skilled at escalating matters just enough that they can take you in, let you sleep it off in a cell, and then drop charges in the morning.

Carlos Orange

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it's not.

As newacc2015, the "entry-level" drunkenness offence is "drunk and disorderly", but to commit that you do have to be at least a little bit disorderly.

If you're so drunk that you are danger to yourself or to others - e.g. you might wander into traffic - but are not actually disorderly, the guards are reasonably skilled at escalating matters just enough that they can take you in, let you sleep it off in a cell, and then drop charges in the morning.

Would it not be covered without escalation by

"It shall be an offence for any person to be present in any public place while intoxicated to such an extent as would give rise to a reasonable apprehension that he might endanger himself or any other person in his vicinity."

Little CuChulainn

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it's not.

As newacc2015, the "entry-level" drunkenness offence is "drunk and disorderly", but to commit that you do have to be at least a little bit disorderly.

If you're so drunk that you are danger to yourself or to others - e.g. you might wander into traffic - but are not actually disorderly, the guards are reasonably skilled at escalating matters just enough that they can take you in, let you sleep it off in a cell, and then drop charges in the morning.

There is no drunk and disorderly. The entry offence is being drunk to the extent that you might injure yourself or others. Disorderly conduct is a separate offence.

hatrickpatrick

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Allegedy a few digs were thrown - after he 'wasn't resisting arrest' and was only running away because he was startled.. The only witness appears to be the OP who made his first ever post and disappeared again (probably fell asleep drunk as 15 year olds tend to do !!!)

If it didn't happen, it didn't happen. My beef is with those who throw around the phrase "got a few digs" as if it's irrelevant. It isn't. If it happened, it shouldn't have.

In my case I wish people would cop on and get over the idea that every little incident with the Gardai has to be the subject of a complaint to GSOC. The Gardai are not there to give out hugs and cuddles, that's someone elses job.

They're there to protect the public and enforce the law. Part of this means not assaulting somebody unless it's 100% unavoidable. Not, as many would have it, to "teach people a lesson".

desbrook

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no drunk and disorderly. The entry offence is being drunk to the extent that you might injure yourself or others. Disorderly conduct is a separate offence.

That's what I thought. I seem to remember reading about guys being charged with "Simple Drunkenness " in the local paper.

Nobody has an issue with the sole witness being a drunk teenager who was, nevertheless, aware that for a period of hours the Gardai were observing him? How would he know? And if he did know why did he continue drinking?

Let's be absolutely clear: this story doesn't add up at all.

FreudianSlippers

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If it didn't happen, it didn't happen. My beef is with those who throw around the phrase "got a few digs" as if it's irrelevant. It isn't. If it happened, it shouldn't have.

If AGS are in a position where they are forced to give chase and subdue a suspect, what level of force do you deem acceptable?

They're there to protect the public and enforce the law. Part of this means not assaulting somebody unless it's 100% unavoidable. Not, as many would have it, to "teach people a lesson".

I think you're throwing around the word "assault" quite loosely. I don't believe for a second that once this kid was restrained that members of AGS decided to "hit him a few times even though he wasn't resisting arrest".

This person was (i) aware that AGS were watching them; (ii) attempted to run when approached; (iii) apprehended after a 100m chase. I'd imagine they were subdued using reasonable force but they're not happy about it and/or have told a few porky-pies to their doting parents.