Is this rape?

LegacyUser

A colleague of mine who I've become good friends has been suffering from a depression. She is quite reckless because of it and recently met with someone from pof, basically a stranger. She told him several times that there would be no sex on the day she met up with him (as i think he had hinted at it) But due to her depression, she said she acted out of character, was in a daze and put together with this guy's charm, they ended up back at her house. She admitted she kissed him but that she wanted to go no further. However, he pressured her and she ended up just lying there "to get it over with". She is so distraught over it. I am so worried about her. I didn't want to mention rape as I didn't want to scare her further. Would that be classed as consensual or not?

Merkin

Rape is a very very serious allegation to make about someone just as consent is an incredibly grey area. If she wants to really establish whether she was raped or not then she should go to a good solicitor and they will be best advised to instruct her. I don't think it's really fair to blame depression and her 'recklessness' for her having sex with someone when she hadn't intended to and while no always means no, a judge will always look up at the events leading up to the sexual act took place. Most rapes that finally do culminate in a guilty conviction tend to be the ones where violence has been involved. Date rape unfortunately is very hard to prove. I think I'd be inclined to be very open and sympathetic with her and if SHE brings it up that she feels she was raped then she should go to a solicitor and they can advise her on making a formal statement to the Gardai

LegacyUser

Yes I understand it's very serious and I wasn't making accusations or anything. I wasn't being offensive. as you said, it's a very grey area and only she knows what really went on. I am just extremely worried about her as it's not at all in her nature to do that type of thing .

Rubberchikken

im sorry for your friend. she seems in such a vulnerable place at the moment.
give her time to talk to you and let her see what she wants to do next. also encourage her to see her gp and or counsellor if she's attendng one.

this guy's behaviour was fairly low imo. decent men don't take advantage of women full stop.
i hope she gets the support she deserves. take care

LegacyUser

Rubberchikken wrote: »

im sorry for your friend. she seems in such a vulnerable place at the moment.
give her time to talk to you and let her see what she wants to do next. also encourage her to see her gp and or counsellor if she's attendng one.

this guy's behaviour was fairly low imo. decent men don't take advantage of women full stop.
i hope she gets the support she deserves. take care

That's a bit harsh - saying that he took advantage. In fairness, there's nothing to suggest that this guy actually did take advantage in the OP. There was nothing to say that the OP wasn't in complete control of their facilities and that she wasn't consenting (basing this on what the OP said - just that she wasn't her usual self - sure, she "just lay back and let it happen", but there's nothing to suggest that she tried to stop him at any stage). As someone mentioned, depression isn't actually an excuse. So to say that this guy took advantage is completely harsh.

The OP's friend needs to think very damn hard and get proper legal advice before even considering making a rape allegation because not only is it extremely and extraordinarily serious, it could potentially destroy and damage this guy's life beyond repair.

skallywag

I do sympathize and it does indeed sound like this chap did not act with any respect.

That said, your friend does not currently seem to be of fit state of mind to be hooking up with folk from the web and putting herself into such scenarios.

Perhaps talk to her re the same?

LegacyUser

No it wasn't rape. She consented and now it seems she regrets it. Remember you're only hearing her side of the story. And I don't buy this 'I was depressed and in a daze line'.

LegacyUser

That wasn't rape.

I've been in her position, depressed and engaging in risk behaviours, letting guys get what they wanted from me and then blaming them afterwards for not realising I felt I had no choice. Your friend likely does feel violated, and hurt, but it's not the fault of the guy she was with. If her experience is anything like mine, she was probably in self-destruct mode and didn't have the presence of mind to say no. The guy she was with couldn't have known, and while he probably must have been insensitive to take the green light where he could get it after she had warned him she wasn't up for it, he's certainly not a rapist.

I realise you're worried for your friend, but it seems like there's something else here on your side of things - is there a reason you might have an agenda?

LegacyUser

Op here. My friend didn't say that she was accusing him of rape. She told me the story and by my knowing her, knew that it was out of character and she seemed so distraught it just came to my head. The word rape was never mentioned and I wouldn't mention it but I am just worried about her. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone by asking.

allym

Here to say wrote: »

No it wasn't rape. She consented and now it seems she regrets it. Remember you're only hearing her side of the story. And I don't buy this 'I was depressed and in a daze line'.

She didn't consent, she said she didn't want it to go any further and he pressured her.

Not saying no does not equal consenting.

celligraphy

The guy was a sleaze, a prick and abit pushy but definitely not a rapist . Your friend just feels regretful and maybe ashamed over what happened but I don't think she should go about saying it was rape when it clearly wasn't.

It's things like this , that just irritate me.

Knowingly could ruin someone's life

Old Jakey

allym wrote: »

She didn't consent, she said she didn't want it to go any further and he pressured her.

Not saying no does not equal consenting.

Should have said no if she didn't want it. I don't get how you can be 'pressured' into sex.

LegacyUser

Just want to reiterate that my friend is not calling this guy a rapist. She explained the situation to me and in my head I thought could this be rape? No one has accused anyone of anything.

Penny Tration

You certainly CAN be pressured into having sex.

It's called rape by coercion.

However, it's only legally defined as that if the person can categorically state that they were in real fear for their safety.

And it doesn't sound as though that was the case of the OP's friend.

freshpopcorn

I don't think it was rape. Your friend tough should look into getting some support before she goes on more dates because she could find herself in a dangerous situation.

kjl

ophere wrote: »

Op here. My friend didn't say that she was accusing him of rape. She told me the story and by my knowing her, knew that it was out of character and she seemed so distraught it just came to my head. The word rape was never mentioned and I wouldn't mention it but I am just worried about her. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone by asking.

Yeah, well you brought it up.

It's quite clear the consensus of the thread is that it wasn't rape and even your friend said it wasn't rape, so how is it even a question.

OneOfThem

What it sounds like happened is. She made a date with a guy online. Said there would be no sex on the date. But then found him really charming and invited him back to her house afterwards (to show him her star wars figures?). Then she kissed him. Then he talked her into bed. Then they had sex. No that's not rape. That's somebody inviting someone back to their house, kissing them, and then sleeping with them on a first date and then regretting it because they feel guilty due to it being out of character for them. She doesn't sound in the right frame of mind to be dating people if she is that distraught about it.

unreg999

celligraphy wrote:

The guy was a sleaze, a prick and abit pushy but definitely not a rapist . Your friend just feels regretful and maybe ashamed over what happened but I don't think she should go about saying it was rape when it clearly wasn't.

She didn't say it was rape, she was very clear about that. The OP came on looking for some advice for her friend!

unreg999

Old Jakey wrote:

Should have said no if she didn't want it. I don't get how you can be 'pressured' into sex.

I have often felt pressurised into having sex and would guess that many women and some men would say the same!

She DID say no, if you read the post, many times according to the OP but was not 'believed' as a 'silly woman who doesn't know her own most mind' & playing 'hard to get'.... obviously...

Rape Culture is a real thing and it sounds to me OP that there wasn't any consent here as even though she went along with it she DID refuse...

I don't know... I would agree with a previous poster that said something along the lines of not bringing it up yourself but seeing what she says when you meet and chat...

It would be a terrible road to go down which is unfortunately what stops most people but this thing of 'what a woman says she wants and what she REALLY wants' is so insidious and we are all brainwashed at an early age to believe it by religion, society, the media etc

You are obviously a loving and caring friend OP

B0jangles

Rape is a very hard word to use, even if someone really does feel that they were made to have sex when they made it clear they didn't want to. I'd say let your friend know that you are there for her, ready to listen if she needs to talk but you understand if she doesn't want to. Let her lead any conversations about this.

I have to say I'm a bit shocked at all the posters in this thread who are so sure it wasn't rape given that they most definitely weren't there - the situation described in the OP is a very murky one, far far too ambiguous for anyone to declare absolutely whether or not a rape occurred.

Edit:

Here to say wrote: »

No it wasn't rape. She consented and now it seems she regrets it. Remember you're only hearing her side of the story. And I don't buy this 'I was depressed and in a daze line'.

Stuff like this is just disgraceful; completely rewriting the facts as given in the OP and essentially calling the person this happened to a liar without any cause to do so. Shame on those who thanked it.

unreg999

B0jangles wrote:

Rape is a very hard word to use, even if someone really does feel that they were made to have sex when they made it clear they didn't want to. I'd say let your friend know that you are there for her, ready to listen if she needs to talk but you understand if she doesn't want to. Let her lead any conversations about this.

B0jangles wrote:

I have to say I'm a bit shocked at all the posters in this thread who are so sure it wasn't rape given that they most definitely weren't there - the situation described in the OP is a very murky one, far far too ambiguous for anyone to declare absolutely whether or not a rape occurred.

B0jangles wrote:

Stuff like this is just disgraceful; completely rewriting the facts as given in the OP and essentially calling the person this happened to a liar without any cause to do so. Shame on those who thanked it.

I agree absolutely!

Lollipops23

I was in a very similar situation a few years back- I was off the rails, acting impulsively and in what I now know was a deep depressive period.

I dated a much older guy (he was 40, I was 25) a couple of times and he ended up coming back to mine after we met up on a night out. Despite me saying immediately that we wouldn't be doing the nasty, he wouldn't let up and we ended up doing it anyway. I very much felt pressured into it, but to be fair I did just go along with it. I think the guy was a total sleaze who should have known better, but I don't consider it rape. If anything it was the wake up call I needed to get help.

I hope your friend feels the same way.

zeffabelli

We don't know what she is perceiving as " pressure." Without the details of that, no one can say.

I'm inclined towards saying sleazy and unethical, yes.

Illegal and criminal, no.

Old Jakey

If I sound harsh it's because all it takes is an accusation, even a rumor, for a man's life to be destroyed.

B0jangles

Old Jakey wrote: »

If I sound harsh it's because all it takes is an accusation, even a rumor, for a man's life to be destroyed.

But you have no consideration whatsoever for someone who might actually have been raped? You're perfectly happy to re-write what the OP says happened to make her out to be a liar?

OP, if you are still reading this thread, try not to be too upset by some of the posts, you're a good friend trying to help a vulnerable person in thier time of need.

Meauldsegosha

unreg999 wrote: »

She DID say no, if you read the post, many times according to the OP but was not 'believed' as a 'silly woman who doesn't know her own most mind' & playing 'hard to get'.... obviously...

Rape Culture is a real thing and it sounds to me OP that there wasn't any consent here as even though she went along with it she DID refuse...

reallyneedadvice wrote: »

She told him several times that there would be no sex on the day she met up with him (as i think he had hinted at it) But due to her depression, she said she acted out of character, was in a daze and put together with this guy's charm, they ended up back at her house. She admitted she kissed him but that she wanted to go no further. However, he pressured her and she ended up just lying there "to get it over with".

Your version of events and what were stated in the OP are quite different. Before they met she told him there would be no sex but there is nothing in the OP to indicate that she actually said no to this man after they had met. The OP's friend admitted she kissed him but didn't want it to go further. We don't know if she actually she this to the man. Your post, in my opinion, is scaremongering and not helpful to the OP or her friend.

OP it is great that your friend had you to talk to and be there for her. Does your friend attend a professional regarding her depression. If she does I suggest she speaks to them if her depression is making her act out of character.

Exclamation Marc

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

Your version of events and what were stated in the OP are quite different. Before they met she told him there would be no sex but there is nothing in the OP to indicate that she actually said no to this man after they had met. The OP's friend admitted she kissed him but didn't want it to go further. We don't know if she actually she this to the man. Your post, in my opinion, is scaremongering and not helpful to the OP or her friend.

Completely agreed. There's a significant difference between having zero intention of having sex before and during the date but it ending up happening as opposed to refusing to have sex but it being forced upon you despite explicitly protesting against it or vocalising that the act needs to stop (which we do not know happened from any of the posts).

It's not even a thin line, there's a huge difference.

unreg999

Old Jakey wrote:

If I sound harsh it's because all it takes is an accusation, even a rumor, for a man's life to be destroyed.

Thousands more lives of people that have been raped/abused/messed around with or 'it's a grey area' have been ruined by this kind of 'don't say anything culture' that you propose than have been ruined by false accusations...

Yet it still goes on under people's noses and many people stand back & say nothing out of fear or conditioning

Do you also think that if a woman 'dresses a certain way' or 'had too much to drink' or 'walked home alone' etc that she was 'asking for it'...

This IS Rape Culture... Yes means yes... No means no... It's really quite simple! He should not have been trying to 'charm' her in the first place as she had already stated that she did NOT desire intercourse with him, he should have respected that!

OP please do not be put off by all these replies to help your friend to find whatever kind of help she needs if she comes to you looking for help.
None of us where there that night except your friend and that man and she may be keeping part of it from you as well as the possibility that she very much wanted to have sex but is too ashamed to admit it to you!
There is also the possibility that it was more pressured than she is letting on for fear of what you might say.
You might never know

unreg999

Meauldsegosha wrote:

Your version of events and what were stated in the OP are quite different. Before they met she told him there would be no sex but there is nothing in the OP to indicate that she actually said no to this man after they had met. The OP's friend admitted she kissed him but didn't want it to go further. We don't know if she actually she this to the man. Your post, in my opinion, is scaremongering and not helpful to the OP or her friend.

The OP stated she didn't want to go further but felt pressured into sex and ended up lying there to get it over with... ??

Potatoeman

unreg999 wrote: »

The OP stated she didn't want to go further but felt pressured into sex and ended up lying there to get it over with... ??

That would be implied consent rather than explicit consent. It would not be considered rape unless she said no during/just before the act.

bee06

OP, I think your best approach now, rather than trying to label what did happen, is to support your friend to get help for her depression so she doesn't put herself in this position again.

frostyjacks

This wasn't rape. Sleazy, but consensual. As long as there are women out there with self esteem issues, there'll be men looking to take advantage of them.

Exclamation Marc

I think the thread has gone way off course and there's way way too much speculation especially given that everything is complete hear-say. Everyone is coming down crazy hard on the guy based on third hand knowledge which could paint a very incorrect picture of what happened. I'm not saying he's innocent or guilty, but there's far too much pre-judgement based on third hand knowledge.

All you can do OP is be there for your friend and explain to her that sometimes in the heat of the moment, people make decisions to sleep together that they probably weren't expecting to or looking to make beforehand. Lots of people have done it and while lots of people regret it afterwards, sometimes it happens and it's something just to learn from. Barrelling in there telling her she may have been raped like some people are suggesting could be absolutely disastrous for her and could make things a hell of a lot worse. I'm not saying she has or hasn't been raped, taken advantage of or just made a rash decision she regretted but nobody in this thread knows the full details. She hasn't mentioned rape so it's best to proceed as if its not and just comfort her that it was a mistake that she can recover from.

If she brings it up herself and starts questioning whether it is or not, then address it and re-address how you can help her, but given her state of mind, if she hasn't suggested it's rape, introducing the possibility of it (especially when she herself hasn't gone down that road) may make things worse for her.

I think what people are trying to get across is that the OP's friend needs to be damned certain before making any accusations or saying too much to different people. As pointed out, a rape allegation, even one that is untrue, can destroy a person's life. If they do really think they were raped, then they should follow through with the right procedures and not be saying it to too many people until this is done. If, through the correct legal channels, it's decided whether it was rape or not, then she can pursue whatever actions are required. BUT just remember that a person's life is on the line - this guy's - until then.

LegacyUser

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think what people are trying to get across is that the OP's friend needs to be damned certain before making any accusations or saying too much to different people. As pointed out, a rape allegation, even one that is untrue, can destroy a person's life. If they do really think they were raped, then they should follow through with the right procedures and not be saying it to too many people until this is done. If, through the correct legal channels, it's decided whether it was rape or not, then she can pursue whatever actions are required. BUT just remember that a person's life is on the line - this guy's - until then.

Can't agree enough. Based on the info given, I feel that while the OP's friend didn't originally intend to sleep with this guy, she did and now regrets it. I feel that he was a bit at fault for pushing his luck, but she was at fault too for not being honest. I understand that she feels upset by what happened, but her going along with everything yet raising no objections does not make the guy a rapist.

I don't see any element of coercion - explicit or implicit. And I think that, unless there is more to this story, raising this possibility with your friend - or giving it validation if she raises it - would be a truly awful thing to do. It will just serve to make her feel worse, and to ruin his life.

They both did wrong. He wasn't especially considerate to a vulnerable woman (to be fair, did he actually know how vulnerable she was?). And she said no in words beforehand, but facilitated them sleeping together when they met up.

I am actually shocked that anyone would think he raped her. I think your friend is acting in such a manner that she puts herself in situations that can't or won't handle though, and is blaming others for her change of heart in the cold light of day/more lucid moments.