Becoming a vegan....

IWJ

My brother tried to live a strict vegan diet for a month. He says that he experienced full relief from constipation during the month (this was a huge issue for him) and that he generally didn't feel drowsy after dinners. He ate a lot of fruit in that month- maybe too much!

Anyway, I've read up about the health benefits associated with a vegan diet and this would be main reason for trying it out myself.

My only worry is that I'm afraid I'd lose muscle mass (my brother lost loads) and since I go to the gym quite a bit and also practice a full contact sport, I wouldn't like to be at a disadvantage in terms of strength or energy levels.

I've read about quinoa online. Must give that a try. Its high in protein content. Any other similar foods out there that are hard to come across?

Finally, can turning vegan have bad consequences on skin/ hair? I read online some people claimed they started going bald after years of being vegan?! What about B12?!?!?

Any info would be great!!!!

Tar.Aldarion

Hello, you won't lose muscle mass by being vegan, there are tonnes of bodybuilders, mma fighers, nfl players etc that are vegan, eg http://www.greatveganathletes.com/vegan_athlete_patrik-baboumian-vegan-strongman
http://www.gq.com/story/vegan-diet-of-nfl-player-david-carter
You lose muscle mass by losing weight and not using your muscles. Work out and you are fine.

The main thing for you is too look up what foods you should eat to get the nutrition you need, the only reason anybody ever would feel bad on a vegan diet is that they do a bad job of it and eat craply. Some common health info in here http://www.veganhealth.org/
I eat much healthier on a vegan diet so I'd only say that those things should get better not worse, the bald thing is ridiculous.
B12 is fortified in foods such as soy milk, vegan butter, nutritional yeast (this is a nice food that you can add to things for a kindof cheesy flavour) etc.
I took b12 supplements for a while but it turns out I got too much b12 due to taking supplements and the foods being fortified with it as well.

In general you will be much healthier from this because you will start looking into your diet more and know what you should be eating and wit will consist of more whole, unprocessed stuff. Beans, vegs, fruit, nuts and so on.

IWJ

By workout do you mean resistance training or cardio? I ask because my brother went running around 5 days a week and combined this with bodyweight excercises and still lost muscle.

Even if it is possible to gain and retain muscle mass on a vegan diet, would it be of as high a quality as muscle put on from eating animal products. What if I supplemented it with whey protein?

Tar.Aldarion

Well cardio training will make you lose muscle really, it's a high calorie burner. If you are doing that most days makes it harder to put on muscle mass. Muscle will be lost if you are burning more calories than you are taking in. Muscle is built from excess calories and overusing the muscle so that it strengthens and is up to the task next time.

Basically the more weights you do the more muscle you will put on, and you gotta eat excess of calories and be putting on weight. (unless you are just starting out and getting newbie muscle - it's possible to gain muscle on a calorie deficit but it is harder to do) There is no difference in the muscle quality, muscle is muscle. Whey protein is not vegan (vegan proteins are hemp, pea, soy, rice etc). Protein is important for gaining muscle, you can get it from food, there is no difference,. However it is very easy to get it from these powders so that is why they are used.

Personally I have a protein smoothie every morning consisting of pea protein, peanut butter, banana, cocoa powder and agave syrup.
It is recommended you get 0.6-0.8g of protein for each kg you weigh at a minimum for building/maintaining muscle but the main factor will be calories. There is no difference in eating meat or not to gaining muscle, what matters is protein, carbs, fat etc, not the types of food. Weight training stimulates your central nervous system, which makes better use of the muscles you already have.

IWJ

Ya sounds like you know what you're talking about. Do you lift or play any sports yourself?

Are protein powders from the other sources you mentioned as readily available as whey protein?

Out of curiousity, what kind of benefits have you noticed from turning vegan? I'm asking under the assumption that your weren't raised vegan?

Btw, I've been told from different gym instructors that the protein requirement to build/ maintain muscle mass is between 1- 1.2 grams of protein per pound of body weight? 0.6- 0.8 per kg of body weight seems way too low!

Tar.Aldarion

No sports since I was a teen but go to the gym 5-7 days a week and lift/cardio. Lifting is pretty recent!
Not in shops but shops are a rip off, get it online if you are buying it. I get mine from here:
http://www.bulkpowders.ie/shop-by-category/protein-supplements/vegan-protein.html
I get 5kg of pea protein for 40e as it's by far the cheapest, it's 80% protein. Hemp is lower in protein (47%) but has far more vitamins so it's quite good for you.
That would last me a few months and also they often have deals. Feel free to use my referral code if signing up :pac:
I think the one people go for varies on taste, i hate pea mixed with water but its perfect in my smoothie.

I'm not really sure about the changes it made because i'm so much healthier now that I would feel better anyway, but in general more energy and definitely the drowsy thing your brother mentioned. I also think I had a lot of chest congestion when having dairy.

Oh sorry that was meant to be per pound. Minimum recommended per pound is 0.66g by the world health organisation, so you get that or more than that when putting on muscle. The literature seems to point to about 1.2-1.6 g/kg is required and any more is turned into energy. No harm overshooting if ye want but when people say 1-1.2g per pound they really are either just regurgitating what they have been told or are selling protein supplements.

blatantrereg

I just wrote a post that is relevant to this thread also. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96629037&postcount=3

I've read about quinoa online. Must give that a try. Its high in protein content.

Quinoa does not deserve its reputation as a vegetarian protein source. It is not high in protein.

My only worry is that I'm afraid I'd lose muscle mass (my brother lost loads)

I lost a lot of muscle when I went vegetarian because I didn't eat enough protein. I have since put back some of it while still being vegetarian and eating more protein without increasing my consumption of animal food. It is a good idea to research it and to make sure you get enough protein if this is a concern.

He says that he experienced full relief from constipation during the month

My digestion also improved when I went vegetarian.

Finally, can turning vegan have bad consequences on skin/ hair? I read online some people claimed they started going bald after years of being vegan?! What about B12?!?!?

Supplementing vitamin B12 is absolutely essential for vegans. I'm sure skin and hair can suffer from nutrient deficiencies regardless of whether it is in a vegan diet or not.

You should also supplement with DHA. Algae oil is a vegetarian source of it though it is a lot more expensive and less widely available than fish oil.

Other nutrients that are low in vegetarian diets are creatine and carnosine. The benefits of creatine for weight training are well documented. Carnosine has a minor but significant effect on muscle endurance, but the antioxidant and anti-aging effects are more interesting, as well as apparent benefits for people with autism. It is more efficient to supplement with beta alanine than carnosine directly, since consumed carnosine is deomposed anyway.

Personally I was putting too much salt in food for a long time as a vegetarian, largely via soy sauce and bad quality Indian food. Worth making food from scratch not using prepared sauces or spice mixes in general to avoid it really.

Minimum recommended per pound is 0.66g by the world health organisation

Basic minimum requirement is .66g per kg, not pound, but that should be upped to .8g per kg to compensate for reduced digestibility of vegetable protein compared to animal protein. Excess body fat should be factored out of this calculation.

If you are trying to build muscle then you consuming 1g-1.2g is a good idea. As high as 1.6g or 1.7g might be beneficial especially for people who are only starting training. I wouldn't go above that though as excessive protein consumption is unhealthy. If your ratio of strength to weight is more important than overall muscle mass then don't go above 1.2g. You should get the same increase in strength but without the same growth in muscle mass.

Tar.Aldarion

I was wondering how I read 1.2 per kg for muscle building and then wrote .66 per kg for minimum. For .8 is that just assuming some average diet since digestion can vary.
What problems are associated with more protein than that?

For supplements definitely get blood tests every year, my b12 was way high due to soy milk etc with the supplements on top. I would recommend D3 supplements to everybody as 70 percent if the EU are deficient and excess sun can be bad for you anyway and also RPA/DHA. OPTI3 is great, about 35-40e for 3 months I think

blatantrereg

What problems are associated with more protein than that?

A major concern with excessive protein intake is that it causes calcium to be leeched from bones, an effect which can be observed at 1.8g/kg per day. However I discovered that this doesn't actually seem to be an issue for vegans when looking for a source to check my info:

Diets based mainly on plant proteins apparently do not augment calcium loss,

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/886.full

However there are other effects too, including decreased thyroid activity and acidification of the metabolism resulting in reduced protein synthesis. WIth regard to these issues a high protein diet was defined as >2g/kg.

Alpha&Omega

blatantrereg wrote: »

I just wrote a post that is relevant to this thread also.

Quinoa does not deserve its reputation as a vegetarian protein source. It is not high in protein.

I've just started researching a vegetarian diet and cutting out meat and fish, and I was under the impression that quinoa, was a complete protein giving 8 g/cup serving, but I see from reading your link that it's been misleading by having all the right essential amino acids but not in high enough quantities. Am I understanding you right? I've been happily munching on quinoa thinking it was meeting my protein needs along with other sources of complete proteins such as buckwheat which gives 6g/cup; hempseed giving 5g/1tb; chia seeds giving 2g/1tb; soy (tofu) giving 20g/cup; quorn giving 26g/cup; and then there's cases where stuff like legumes such as beans which are low in methionine but high in lysine, when combined with rice which is low in lysine but high in methionine forming a complete protein when combined giving 7g/cup; and 2 of my my fav snacks: hummous and pita giving 7g per pita+2tb hummous; and peanut butter sandwich giving 15g per 2 slice sandwich + 2 tb peanut butter (again this is a legume + grain = complete protein).

Just curious as to where your info for the quinoa not being a source of protein come from, as it's quite tasty and easy to eat and I was happy I was getting my protein in and not affecting my lifting in the gym. If it's not as you say a complete protein, how about the other sources I listed? Am I just getting shoddy bro-science, or are any of these recommendations hitting the mark?

Btw, you also mentioned tempeh, and quorn (which I also listed). As I'm new to all this I'm having trouble tracing these ingredients in Dublin. Tofu wasn't too hard to find, but where am I likely to find tempeh or quorn (like mince for making chilli)? Just getting blank stares from shop assistants wherever I asked so far.

blatantrereg

Alpha&Omega wrote: »

I've just started researching a vegetarian diet and cutting out meat and fish, and I was under the impression that quinoa, was a complete protein giving 8 g/cup serving, but I see from reading your link that it's been misleading by having all the right essential amino acids but not in high enough quantities. Am I understanding you right? I've been happily munching on quinoa thinking it was meeting my protein needs along with other sources of complete proteins such as buckwheat which gives 6g/cup; hempseed giving 5g/1tb; chia seeds giving 2g/1tb; soy (tofu) giving 20g/cup; quorn giving 26g/cup; and then there's cases where stuff like legumes such as beans which are low in methionine but high in lysine, when combined with rice which is low in lysine but high in methionine forming a complete protein when combined giving 7g/cup; and 2 of my my fav snacks: hummous and pita giving 7g per pita+2tb hummous; and peanut butter sandwich giving 15g per 2 slice sandwich + 2 tb peanut butter (again this is a legume + grain = complete protein).

Just curious as to where your info for the quinoa not being a source of protein come from, as it's quite tasty and easy to eat and I was happy I was getting my protein in and not affecting my lifting in the gym. If it's not as you say a complete protein, how about the other sources I listed? Am I just getting shoddy bro-science, or are any of these recommendations hitting the mark?

Btw, you also mentioned tempeh, and quorn (which I also listed). As I'm new to all this I'm having trouble tracing these ingredients in Dublin. Tofu wasn't too hard to find, but where am I likely to find tempeh or quorn (like mince for making chilli)? Just getting blank stares from shop assistants wherever I asked so far.

Quinoa just isn't high in protein. The protein it contains is complete in the sense of it having all the essential amino acids in roughly similar proportions to what we require - it's just that there isn't that much protein in it. Source of info on quinoa is just any nutritional info panel on its packaging really - also on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinoa - cooked quinoa is only 4.4% protein. It is a nutritious food anyway so if you like it then I would continue to eat it - I just wouldn't think of it as a primary protein source except in cases where the protein requirement is pretty low.

Tempeh is hard to find in general but can be found in some health food shops. The Dublin Food Coop stock it as well as the Happy Pear. It varies from about €1.50 to €4.50 for about 300g - usually closer to the higher figure; the lower figure is wholesale price. I think Yakso tempeh is the best tasting.

Quorn is pretty easy to find. It is available in a lot of supermarkets including Tesco and Dunnes, and sometimes in Aldi and Lidl (at a cheaper price). I should mention that Quorn isn't vegan as it contains egg.

Tar.Aldarion

tepeh is available in the asian supermarkets, around jervis and drury st.

I think it's hard to eat enough food and not get enough protein anyway, from hat you eat it sounds like a fine amount to me.


This "complete protein" thing doesn't matter, eat an protein sources over the day you want, they all have the essential amino acids in different amounts. You don't need to combine at a meal.

Down to earth has a good few fake meats, it's on georges street.

blatantrereg

I think it's hard to eat enough food and not get enough protein anyway

Depends on protein and calorie requirements. Personally I noticed I was often consuming too little protein when relying on things like beans and pulses as primary sources of it without regularly eating higher protein foods like tempeh, seitan, Quorn etc.

I've posted this article on a couple of threads before, but the table at the end summarises vegetarian protein sources well, and the article discusses the topic well too:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein

Mentalmiss

I have been vegetarian for 41 years and have not given a thought to complete protein since I read that it was a myth many years ago. I am the healthiest person that I know.

blatantrereg

Mentalmiss wrote: »

I have been vegetarian for 41 years and have not given a thought to complete protein since I read that it was a myth many years ago. I am the healthiest person that I know.

Almost all protein is complete in the sense that it all contains all the essential amino acids. But sometimes the ratio is different to the ratio we need. The main consideration is usually that wheat and cereal is low in lysine. But you could still get all the lysine you need just by eating wheat - you'd just need about twice as much protein overall as you would if you ate something like egg protein.

Mentalmiss

blatantrereg wrote: »

Almost all protein is complete in the sense that it all contains all the essential amino acids. But sometimes the ratio is different to the ratio we need. The main consideration is usually that wheat and cereal is low in lysine. But you could still get all the lysine you need just by eating wheat - you'd just need about twice as much protein overall as you would if you ate something like egg protein.

I do not eat any wheat but I just checked on cronometer and 300 grams of mango gives me 13% of my daily requirements for lysine. 500grms of watermelon would give me 21% (and I would never eat as little as that).

blatantrereg

I reckon that must mean dried mango. 300g of mango has about 85mg of lysine in it according to google. You need 38mg per kg of normal bodyweight so it would be a good bit less than 13% of the requirement for even the tiniest adults. Probably something similar for watermelon too.

Mentalmiss

blatantrereg wrote: »

I reckon that must mean dried mango. 300g of mango has about 85mg of lysine in it according to google. You need 38mg per kg of normal bodyweight so it would be a good bit less than 13% of the requirement for even the tiniest adults. Probably something similar for watermelon too.

No. I do not use dried anything. I eat fresh. I use cronometer to calculate what I need. I am a small person and I only need 35grms of protein per day but cronometer has me listed as needing 50grms so the percentages would actually have been higher than I stated. According to the bodybuilding site I need .8 grms per Kg which would put my need at about 40 grms.

blatantrereg

Mentalmiss wrote: »

No. I do not use dried anything. I eat fresh. I use cronometer to calculate what I need. I am a small person and I only need 35grms of protein per day but cronometer has me listed as needing 50grms so the percentages would actually have been higher than I stated. According to the bodybuilding site I need .8 grms per Kg which would put my need at about 40 grms.

I mean the figure you have for the lysine content of mango must refer to dried mango. If rda of protein at .8g per kg puts you at a 40g per day requirement then the RDA of lysine for you would be 1900mg.

67.6mg of lysine in 165g of raw mango:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1952/2

Therefore you would need to eat 4.6kg of raw mango to satisfy your daily lysine requirement. 300g provides about 6.5% of it.

blatantrereg

An average mango weighs 175g without the stone, so 4.6kg of mango is about 26 mangoes, which would contain about 644g of sugar.

Mentalmiss

blatantrereg wrote: »

An average mango weighs 175g without the stone, so 4.6kg of mango is about 26 mangoes, which would contain about 644g of sugar.

You must be using a different data base to cronometer because their calculations were as I stated. Check it out.