Mileage Expenses help please

castykidd

**Sorry for double post admin I thought this topic might be better suited for this forum. **


Hi Guys, hoping ye can help me out.

I have been working with a marketing company for the past four years, very much casual work involving pub promotions etc, maybe 4/5 hours a week maximum.

The company picks one person each week as designated driver to drive other promotion staff to save on mileage costs.
I was filling out my time sheet for this week and my mother noticed that they were only paying 26 cent per km of work and made me aware that this is no where near the civil service mileage rates as she does these expenses at her place of work.

See brought me home the revenue rates. I have not signed any contract for the company as the work is so casual but am I right in saying that 26 cent for a 1600 cc car is not right and they should be paying the civil service rates or the actual costs incurred during travel and these are the only two options.

I travel from Kinsale to the city Centre to work on top of collecting promotional staff from their homes and now they are also saying they will not pay mileage if the place of work is within 23 km of Cork city (as my designated area of work)

Can anyone help or comment as to the legalities and whether or not I should be receiving the actual costs incurred or the civil service rates.

Noteworthy also is that up to this week they have always paid mileage from my home (Kinsale) to cork city return and this week now they have refused after travelling over 200 km between driving my own car from my home, picking up staff, driving us all to work , driving staff back home and then returning home myself.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it51.html

Whiplashy

I don't know what if any legalities there are around mileage expenses but I would certainly be informing them that you won't be ferrying people around if you're not going to be compensated for it! I get 33 cent a mile for travel, and if the company want us to car share to reduce costs we pick a designated spot to meet. Everyone gets mileage to get to that spot. And the main driver drops them back to that spot at the end of the day.

dudara

IIRC, I think my company pays somewhere under 40c/km. We don't get to claim mileage if the distance to our client is less than or equal to the trip from home to the main office. For some people, that's just a few km, for others it can be tens of kilometres.

I would definitely have a conversation with them on this. By acting as a designated driver, you are performing a service for them, and it's got to be worth some compensation.

castykidd

Whiplashy wrote: »

I don't know what if any legalities there are around mileage expenses but I would certainly be informing them that you won't be ferrying people around if you're not going to be compensated for it! I get 33 cent a mile for travel, and if the company want us to car share to reduce costs we pick a designated spot to meet. Everyone gets mileage to get to that spot. And the main driver drops them back to that spot at the end of the day.

can be sure it was the first thing i said and i am starting a new job in a few weeks but I am not going out if I am owed money but want to get an opinion as to if there is a legal standing where I am owed money that I have already paid out in petrol and now they are refusing to pay.

tobsey

The Civil Service, or more importantly Revenue, rates are just the maximum a company can pay before it's taxed as a benefit in kind. To my mind there are no regulations with regard to a minimum mileage rate. My company pays the full Revenue rate but my wife's only pays about half it.

Whiplashy

castykidd wrote: »

can be sure it was the first thing i said and i am starting a new job in a few weeks but I am not going out if I am owed money but want to get an opinion as to if there is a legal standing where I am owed money that I have already paid out in petrol and now they are refusing to pay.

I'm not an expert but I think you would be covered legally for last week. You did the driving without being informed that they were no longer paying for it. I'm almost certain they have to inform you of policy changes beforehand. And surely this would be a case of change in policy since previously you had been getting paid.

castykidd

thanks for all the replies. The problem with my company is that they have no other offices besides in dublin. I have no permanent place of work in cork to calculate mileage and up to this week they have been paying me mileage from my home in kinsale, that alone should be precedent t to continue the same rate.

On revenue it does state:
"The Civil Service kilometric rates for cars, motorcycles and bicycles for individuals who are obliged to use their car, motorcycle or bicycle in the performance of the duties of their employment, are as follows:"

As such I would assume it is a national rate that must be abided such as with min wage etc but I understand I am not a civil servant. The only other option is "reimbursement by reference to actual costs incurred"

There are other rates of pay legislated for construction workers etc who have no formal place of work. I just think 26 cent is very low when petrol prices are so high and when the majority of companies do take the civil service rates as the standard

tobsey

Given €1.50 per liter of petrol they are more than covering your petrol costs if your car does ~27 MPG. I know that's not covering tax, insurance or maintenance or anything but it is probably more than the fuel itself costs.

Edit: Sorry now only seeing the part about them refusing to pay any expenses. If you must drive around to multiple locations then you should be entitled to claim for trips from your designated place of work to the other places. I'm not sure who can help you on this if they've changed their policies though.

xabi

I think you were lucky to be getting mileage from your home to your place of work. The rules for contractors claiming mileage don't allow for this.

BTW, not many companies pay the Revenue rate, 26c inst too bad.

castykidd

tobsey wrote: »

Given €1.50 per liter of petrol they are more than covering your petrol costs if your car does ~27 MPG. I know that's not covering tax, insurance or maintenance or anything but it is probably more than the fuel itself costs.

I have never accurately worked it ( I plan to on my next trip though) but if that is the case surely the civil service rates would not be so high?Also I was told that there is a drive time cost that should be paid as well?

tobsey

castykidd wrote: »

I have never accurately worked it ( I plan to on my next trip though) but if that is the case surely the civil service rates would not be so high?Also I was told that there is a drive time cost that should be paid as well?

You shouldn't be paid mileage or wages for driving from your home to your place of work, any other driving is included.

The civil service rates are so high because it also factors in the costs of owning the car itself, such as insurance, tax etc.

I'd be a bit wary of transporting other staff members in your car while you are all engaged in your work. You may not be insured to do that.

castykidd

xabi wrote: »

I think you were lucky to be getting mileage from your home to your place of work. The rules for contractors claiming mileage don't allow for this.

BTW, not many companies pay the Revenue rate, 26c inst too bad.

"Business Travel involving travel directly to/from home

Where an employee proceeds on a business journey directly from home to a temporary place of work (rather than commencing that business journey from his/her normal place of work) or returns home directly, the business kilometres should be calculated by reference to the lesser of -

the distance between home and the temporary place of work; or
the distance between the normal place of work and the temporary place of work."

seeing as though there is no normal place of work then it should be safe to assume the first option applies.

arayess

they can pay you what ever mileage they like.
the civil service rate is what they can pay you tax free before it's BIK , i was told.

not everywhere pays the civil service rates.

that said you could make a case for them paying those rates.

castykidd

tobsey wrote: »

You shouldn't be paid mileage or wages for driving from your home to your place of work, any other driving is included.

The civil service rates are so high because it also factors in the costs of owning the car itself, such as insurance, tax etc.

I'd be a bit wary of transporting other staff members in your car while you are all engaged in your work. You may not be insured to do that.

Tobsey, great point and another one I brought up to the company, if they are burning bridges im gonna make sure they and I know the ramifications and that I get whatever I am owed beforehand.

xabi

castykidd wrote: »

"Business Travel involving travel directly to/from home

Where an employee proceeds on a business journey directly from home to a temporary place of work (rather than commencing that business journey from his/her normal place of work) or returns home directly, the business kilometres should be calculated by reference to the lesser of -

the distance between home and the temporary place of work; or
the distance between the normal place of work and the temporary place of work."

seeing as though there is no normal place of work then it should be safe to assume the first option applies.

In this case you are going to your normal place of work though.

Read this, it applies to contractors but will give you an idea. http://taxinstitute.ie/Portals/0/Tax%20Policy/Contractors%20Project/Response%20from%20T%20%20Buckley%20re%20contractors%27%20submission%20-%20Nov%202013.pdf

castykidd

arayess wrote: »

they can pay you what ever mileage they like.
the civil service rate is what they can pay you tax free before it's BIK , i was told.

not everywhere pays the civil service rates.

that said you could make a case for them paying those rates.

Hey Arayess thanks another good point. as a marketing company they are hired by clients. To get to the bottom of this I would have to get the rates the the clients pay them for staff hours/mileage and make sure the allocated money is going to the staff and there isnt something being taken off the top before it reaches the employees. if they are only alotted 26 cent/km by the clinet then all well and good but seems funny that all clinets would designate the same rate over 4 year period, same with per hour rates.

castykidd

xabi wrote: »

In this case you are going to your normal place of work though.

Read this, it applies to contractors but will give you an idea. http://taxinstitute.ie/Portals/0/Tax%20Policy/Contractors%20Project/Response%20from%20T%20%20Buckley%20re%20contractors%27%20submission%20-%20Nov%202013.pdf

its hard to say xabi, one day i could be in douglas, the next ballincollig, the next mallow, the next dungarven. Cork city is a big place can I really call it all my normal place of work. In that cas ethey are saying that my normal place of work is within a 23 km radius of cork city and as such they wont pay mileage within this circle.....seems a bit of a stretch in my opinion....

xabi

castykidd wrote: »

its hard to say xabi, one day i could be in douglas, the next ballincollig, the next mallow, the next dungarven. Cork city is a big place can I really call it all my normal place of work. In that cas ethey are saying that my normal place of work is within a 23 km radius of cork city and as such they wont pay mileage within this circle.....seems a bit of a stretch in my opinion....

What does it say in your contract?

castykidd

I am under no contract nor did I sign any, I guess because the rates of pay and place of work vary depending on the clients needs. I dont know if that help or hinders me as I didnt sign anything saying 23 km cork city radius was my normal area of work.

xabi

castykidd wrote: »

Hey Arayess thanks another good point. as a marketing company they are hired by clients. To get to the bottom of this I would have to get the rates the the clients pay them for staff hours/mileage and make sure the allocated money is going to the staff and there isnt something being taken off the top before it reaches the employees. if they are only alotted 26 cent/km by the clinet then all well and good but seems funny that all clinets would designate the same rate over 4 year period, same with per hour rates.

What the clients pay the marketing company for your services is none of your business really, your contract is with the marketing company. I'm a contractor, and have on occasion seen what the agency is charging the client for my services, no point getting to hung up on it.

xabi

castykidd wrote: »

I am under no contract nor did I sign any, I guess because the rates of pay and place of work vary depending on the clients needs. I dont know if that help or hinders me as I didnt sign anything saying 23 km cork city radius was my normal area of work.

You cant really complain then, they are under no obligation to pay you any mileage! Harsh but true.

castykidd

xabi wrote: »

What the clients pay the marketing company for your services is none of your business really, your contract is with the marketing company. I'm a contractor, and have on occasion seen what the agency is charging the client for my services, no point getting to hung up on it.

I am no contract though, Surely if the company is getting x from a client to pay for my services and im getting x-20% then there something wrong with that? Must be some way to know that I am getting the wage the client has agreed to and the same with mileage?

castykidd

xabi wrote: »

You cant really complain then, they are under no obligation to pay you any mileage! Harsh but true.

Yeah I guess in the end it will come to that and more negotiation then anything, thanks for all the help. I just want to make sure I wasnt been lead on to think I was getting a certain amount for wages/mileage that was less than the client is actually paying

xabi

castykidd wrote: »

I am no contract though, Surely if the company is getting x from a client to pay for my services and im getting x-20% then there something wrong with that? Must be some way to know that I am getting the wage the client has agreed to and the same with mileage?

The company need their slice of the pie too. In my current role, the agency are taking 18% of what the client is paying them for my services, has been as high as 25% previously. It is a bit sickening, but then without the 'middle man' you wouldn't have a contract.

Mycroft H

Well at least it's not as bad as 15c per KM as the old job used to pay.

Mrs OBumble

castykidd wrote: »

Surely if the company is getting x from a client to pay for my services and im getting x-20% then there something wrong with that? Must be some way to know that I am getting the wage the client has agreed to and the same with mileage?

Absolutely not.

And in fact if your employer is only taking 20%, that's low by industry standards for casual work, usually it's more like 30%.

Just to be clear - the client has not agreed to a wage. They have agreed to a price for the job. That includes the wage, travel, employer-liability insurance, employer PRSI, training and annual leave.


Also:

castykidd wrote: »

As such I would assume it is a national rate that must be abided such as with min wage etc

Wrong assumption.

What they give is the maximum before tax is applied on what they pay.

There is no legal minimum. Some jobs refuse to pay any mileage at all.

Whiplashy

castykidd wrote: »

I have never accurately worked it ( I plan to on my next trip though) but if that is the case surely the civil service rates would not be so high?Also I was told that there is a drive time cost that should be paid as well?

I get paid my normal hourly rate for drive time. If I'm going anywhere other than my normal office, my working hours start the minute I sit into the car in the morning. I don't know if that's compulsory though. I know a few people who get mileage but not drive time, and I know one person who gets 50% of there hourly rate as drive time.

Stheno

Whiplashy wrote: »

I get paid my normal hourly rate for drive time. If I'm going anywhere other than my normal office, my working hours start the minute I sit into the car in the morning. I don't know if that's compulsory though. I know a few people who get mileage but not drive time, and I know one person who gets 50% of there hourly rate as drive time.

It's not compulsory to pay for travel/drive time.

Satriale

Does your insurance cover you to ferry the other workers around? Something to bear in mind.

Interested Observer

OP how many KMs have you claimed for so far this year? If it's over around 6.5k then I think the Revenue rate for mileage drops.

_Brian

Satriale wrote: »

Does your insurance cover you to ferry the other workers around? Something to bear in mind.

This is an important point.
I have class1 added to my insurance as I drive to locations for te company and get milage. If your insurance company don't know your ferrying people for business purposes it could be a problem should an accident arise. I think I pay €30/40 for it.

There is higher cover for carrying passengers or goods for the company.