Charging for charging is on the way???

DrPhilG

Payment I mean, not vehicle charging.

Thought this place would be full of posts. Apparently users in the North got a letter stating that public charging will no longer be free from the end of 2016.

I have a Northern Irish card, I haven't got my letter yet though.

DrPhilG

Sorry that should read "on the way".

Could a mod fix it?

At last, should keep many people away from the DC chargers !!!

Anything Free always brings abuse, not saying everyone does abuse fast charging but there are too many just taking the P**S !!!

Just hope the South follows soon too !

peposhi

It was going to happen sooner or later. This will test the EV drivers and sales of EVs big time.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

At last, should keep many people away from the DC chargers !!!

Anything Free always brings abuse, not saying everyone does abuse fast charging but there are too many just taking the P**S !!!

Just hope the South follows soon too !

We'll esb are in charge of the network north and south so I'd image that this is island wide.

zeffabelli

DrPhilG wrote: »

We'll esb are in charge of the network north and south so I'd image that this is island wide.

Why was that electricity free but domestic isn't?

cros13

zeffabelli wrote: »

Why was that electricity free but domestic isn't?

Partially because the chargers were at first unreliable, there was no guarantee of service. Many EV drivers have also made themselves and their EV available for troubleshooting and testing purposes to assist with getting the network to a point where you can rely on getting a charge. Partially as an incentive to people to purchase EVs and partially because until recently there were too few EVs to make the network commercially viable.

I was told at the end of last year by someone in ESB that December 2016 was a probable date for the introduction of charging fees. Has to happen at some point.

I doubt it will effect EV sales, a lot of people were only saving about 2 Euro's Max compared to charging from their home charge point the savings are still tremendous over equivalent ICE. People are just attracted to anything "free" but I have hoped this would happen a long time ago, just hope they have sensible price in mind for leccy and I wonder will they bill for the Kwh sent to the car or pulled from the charger ? meaning if we will pay for the inefficiency of the charger also ?

But it should free up the fast chargers for those who need them and the AC points also.

Je suis tres mal

If it's like the UK charges (anything up to £7 for a charge, I've heard), it will push back the amount of EV's sold.

I don't think the ESB would have invested in such a good infrastructure if they intend ripping people off, I think they want electrics to succeed, it's in their own interest and when Gen II electrics come out there'll be far less reliance on public charging anyway but it will still be needed.

Je suis tres mal

Perhaps they should wait for the next gen takeup to happen before charging for charging (so to speak!)

jimmycrackcorm

Time to get out with the protests, can't pau won't pay, and sure isn't hydroelectric power free and we already pay for our electricity.

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think the ESB would have invested in such a good infrastructure if they intend ripping people off, I think they want electrics to succeed, it's in their own interest and when Gen II electrics come out there'll be far less reliance on public charging anyway but it will still be needed.

I think they will keep the prices low for the people who get their home electricity from them too, its a good way to stop people changing to other suppliers

EVs will really take take off in the next few years I think the ESB know this and see it as a great opportunity

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

EVs will really take take off in the next few years I think the ESB know this and see it as a great opportunity

Exactly so I don't think they intend to rip people off, charging can't be free and I don't agree with free parking either but I wouldn't object to say 2 hrs free and then pay for every hour after. 2 hours gets me a good charge with the 6.6 Kw charger and if they do start for charging for parking people will be highly glad of the 6.6 kw charger.

Dexter1979

Je suis tres mal wrote: »

If it's like the UK charges (anything up to £7 for a charge, I've heard), it will push back the amount of EV's sold.

A long as it's a good bit cheaper than petrol/diesel it won't hold back anything. Chargers in the Netherlands have always been non-free and they have one of the highest % EVs in the world. And lots of chargers (about 12000).

I'm in favour of per Kwh charging at SCPs at about 20 - 30% above domestic rates. FCPs could even have a per minute rate so nobody's going to camp at them.

Generation of electricity and maintaining the network is not free so neither should the use of the network.

The government should put an incentive in place for others to put in chargers so there is competition. And one to get businesses to install charge points at offices, hospitals, schools, etc. That'll get people buying EVs. Go to work, charge up, drive home.

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

A long as it's a good bit cheaper than petrol/diesel it won't hold back anything. Chargers in the Netherlands have always been non-free and they have one of the highest % EVs in the world. And lots of chargers (about 12000).

People are quiet willing to pay up to 70 euros a week and more on petrol/diesel so I can't see how a few Euro's for a fast charge would turn people off, they either want to drive electric or they don't and the majority of people don't want to drive electric or see no need. Toxic exhaust emissions are obviously of no concern to 99.5% of the population nor the cheap running costs nor how good they are to drive. People will change over time but the greatest change will be when manufacturers themselves decide when it's time everyone change to electric and that will only happen when making ICE cars hurts them financially !

Dexter1979 wrote: »

The government should put an incentive in place for others to put in chargers so there is competition. And one to get businesses to install charge points at offices, hospitals, schools, etc. That'll get people buying EVs. Go to work, charge up, drive home.

More DC chargers would be great but I think Ireland is too small for more companies to start installing these very expensive chargers. how would they make money ? it would probably end up like the U.K where they charge 10 euro's or so per charge and you need several access cards, that would be mad.

I'm not so sure businesses should rush out to install charge points because Gen II electrics in 2017+ will mean the majority of people will be satisfied with 150+ miles range and there won't really be a need, the same for work place charging, fine for the current Gen electrics but when you got 150-250 miles range you won't need it. But it could be good for places where people can't plug in at home but I would like to see no one being prevented from installing a home charge point.

Where I'd really like to see the Government get involved is in places like apartments where management agencies block people trying to install charge points just because they can or people who can only park on the street.

The reality is that even though the Leaf/Zoe costs around the same as a petrol/diesel and the I3 is a lot of fun, the Diesel is still by far the most popular choice and this is unlikely to change for some time and I don't think installing charge points in work/school/hospitals etc will change this.

If people got a monthly bill for petrol/diesel they would be shocked at how much they spend but in reality when they pay out 50-80 odd a week in cash it's gone and they pay no more attention to it. People already have commented to me how expensive their leccy bill has gone up with the EV because it's a bill and people don't like bills despite the EV saving a huge amount of money when a bill comes in the door and it's written down people pay far more attention to it. I know people who have pay as you go mobiles simply because they don't want a monthly bill and on bill pay most of the time it works out cheaper.

My leccy has gone up about 45 Pm including the rental on the Night meter. That's a big drop from paying for petrol in a 60 mpg car.

Dexter1979

Having a charger at work would be a psychological boost to people who are worried they will run out of battery. It would also increase visibility of charging stations and make people think. When one person in a company gets an EV and is enthusiastic about it others will follow.

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Having a charger at work would be a psychological boost to people who are worried they will run out of battery. It would also increase visibility of charging stations and make people think. When one person in a company gets an EV and is enthusiastic about it others will follow.

The problem is who's going to fund it ? the taxpayer is already funding ev purchase and home evse install. And how do you stop wastage by only allowing those who need to charge use the charge points ? Most employers won't spend the money or give people free leccy and they can't charge employees for electricity because as far as I'm aware this would be illegal.

It's costing my company 8,000 Euro's to install a dual outlet charge point. I would rather see companies just install out door 16 amp sockets and then people can buy their own Granny cable (portable EVSE) if they wish to charge at work, that would greatly reduce the costs involved and over 8 hrs you don't need more.

If an ev can do 150-250 miles you don't need work charging, only someone who can't charge at home in Apartments and those parking on street would really need them, not even I would need a work charge point at that rate and I really don't need one now either it would be just more convenient and I would appreciate it.

What would boost EV sales a lot more would be to have free tolls, that would save real money.

nokia69

I could see some employers offering free charging as a perk

thats what I would to if I was in their position

They can only offer it for free they can't charge for the leccy, as far as I'm aware it's illegal to resell leccy, could be charged BIK, though I'm sure it would be hard to prove you actually use the charge point.

gctest50

probably doing it before people* start building their own versions of these :

takes power from your leaf and powers your house

* /me gives it a fortnight b4 Mad_Lad is bolting the IGBTs down

cros13

Personally I think the way forward is a base fee when you connect to the charger of something like €1 for a streetside AC charger and €2/€2.50 for a 30 minute window on a rapid. After that per kWh pricing with your card tied to a domestic or commercial MPRN. Your domestic electricity supplier can then bill you.

That divorces retail sale of power from maintenance of infrastructure. ESB eCars becomes the Eirgrid equivalent for eCar charging. Customer supply companies then compete to provide you with power for your home and car. We don't need separate bills, the power comes out of the same grid whether you charge at home or from a rapid charger on the other side of the country. It's all just an accounting exercise.

I think that's the most scalable system. ESB already has everything they need to put that in place.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

It's costing my company 8,000 Euro's to install a dual outlet charge point.

€8000!?! That charger cost €1500 at worst. That's gouging people, I'd report them to the ECSSA and anyone else I could think of. I bought the two port 7kW charger for our office for €1100 on my company credit card and had our existing electrician install it for €400 all-in including materials.

Deleted User wrote: »

I would rather see companies just install out door 16 amp sockets and then people can buy their own Granny cable (portable EVSE) if they wish to charge at work, that would greatly reduce the costs involved and over 8 hrs you don't need more.

I'm not a fan of half measures. Type 2 Mode 3 is the proper tool for the job, weather resistant, safe and designed for a high number of insertions. Portable EVSEs with 60209 sockets is asking for trouble. Ordinary people would need training on plugging the damn things in. Once one person has paid for a 16 amp EVSE like that the whole exercise has already cost more than just fitting a proper charger in the first place.

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

They can only offer it for free they can't charge for the leccy, as far as I'm aware it's illegal to resell leccy, could be charged BIK, though I'm sure it would be hard to prove you actually use the charge point.

I have no idea about the legal issues, but it looks to me to be a nice perk that costs very little to the company

even if someone arrived to work in a model S with a close to empty battery, if the charging was slow it costs very little

in a few years I could see some places offering free charging while you shop or while you eat maybe, they don't need to give you much for it to be a sweet deal

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

They can only offer it for free they can't charge for the leccy, as far as I'm aware it's illegal to resell leccy, could be charged BIK, though I'm sure it would be hard to prove you actually use the charge point.

It's illegal to resell electricity across property lines. Charging someone for using your supply on your own property is fine.

IBM for example charge their employees €0.12 per kWh for EV charging at work.

Current revenue guidance is that BIK doesn't apply for the moment.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

€8000!?! That charger cost €1500 at worst. That's gouging people, I'd report them to the ECSSA and anyone else I could think of. I bought the two port 7kW charger for our office for €1100 on my company credit card and had our existing electrician install it for €400 all-in including materials.

It's a big Multinational, that included having the charge points, cabling etc included in the architectural drawings. Still seams very expensive but I'm sure they'll write off most of the cost.

cros13 wrote: »

I'm not a fan of half measures. Type 2 Mode 3 is the proper tool for the job, weather resistant, safe and designed for a high number of insertions. Portable EVSEs with 60209 sockets is asking for trouble. Ordinary people would need training on plugging the damn things in. Once one person has paid for a 16 amp EVSE like that the whole exercise has already cost more than just fitting a proper charger in the first place.

Nothing wrong with the 16 amp socket, not going to kill anyone if installed correctly, obviously the Proper charge point is the correct way to do it but if someone really needed to charge at work this might be the cheapest way to do it and let them pay for the cost of the evse.

Most employers are not going to install charge points, it's just not going to happen, most people don't drive more than 30 miles a day so why would you bother ? and much longer range electrics will be here in 2-3 years.

The last company I was in said absolutely never going to happen and they wouldn't entertain the idea and they're not the only ones.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a big Multinational, that included having the charge points, cabling etc included in the architectural drawings. Still seams very expensive but I'm sure they'll write off most of the cost.

Yup, it's an Accelerated Capital Allowances write off. Pointing that out is partially how I got our Finance Director to sign off.

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the 16 amp socket, not going to kill anyone if installed correctly, obviously the Proper charge point is the correct way to do it but if someone really needed to charge at work this might be the cheapest way to do it and let them pay for the cost of the evse.

It's about €300 difference in real terms (and when you're not getting ripped off), and that's only going to drop. Meanwhile the fancy EVSE is going to cost the employees a small fortune.

Deleted User wrote: »

Most employers are not going to install charge points, it's just not going to happen, most people don't drive more than 30 miles a day so why would you bother ? and much longer range electrics will be here in 2-3 years.

True but it's a nice perk. In industries competing for qualified personnel it's a damn sight cheaper than free beers, free laundry and pool tables.

Deleted User wrote: »

The last company I was in said absolutely never going to happen and they wouldn't entertain the idea and they're not the only ones.

I sent around an email offering 24 hour test drives of my old Leaf to other employees, soon I wasn't the only EV owner . Once it was more than one person asking it was taken seriously. Also helps that our CTO in the states leases both a Smart ED and an i3.

It's a nice perk to have bit I don't see why employers would bother installing charge points for someone who lives up to 50 Kms away. And that's for the current Gen 80 odd mile range electrics, for the 100+ real mile range cars I wouldn't bother.

If it were I then I would install them only for the longer distance driver or someone living in an apartment and not allowed install home EVSE.

pwurple

It's the same reason companies contribute to charities etc. they are upping their Green Credentials. Nice Guy image.

And I think it's to be encouraged. It's prime EV visibility, which will make people consider EV as a valid car purchase.

Roen

So does anyone have a concrete date on the end of the free leccy? I have seen it mentioned in other threads that it will be 'next year'. But that could be anytime from Jan to Dec.
I thought 2017 was the date.

Roen

Roen wrote: »

So does anyone have a concrete date on the end of the free leccy? I have seen it mentioned in other threads that it will be 'next year'. But that could be anytime from Jan to Dec.
I thought 2017 was the date.

The ESB are still finalising prices but it will be "sometime" in 2016 for billing to apply. They won't make a lot of money out of it because they can't and probably won't charge more than twice what you pay at home for day rate electricity.

If I get an average of about 7 Kwh over 10 mins and they charged twice what I paid at home that would cost me €2.52 over 5 days =12.60 + whatever I charge at home.

If I had to pay for the 15 Kw that I sucked out the last 2 days from 25-30% - 80% +- 3-4% it would cost €5.40 for 25%-80 odd %.

I would never need 15 Kwh daily and would charge at home but currently I need that 7 Kwh or so daily but that gets me home with about 25% because I don't like to run the battery down below this daily.

The thing I don't know is if we pay for the electricity sent to the car or that and what the charger consumes ? if that is the case then you could add I would say another 20% on to that.