Stobart Aircraft questions

pepe the prawn

Question for the Stobart guys, I've seen recently that the Atr's based in cork are being changed around. For quite a while FCZ was a cork based machine, but recently it was operating out of Dublin for a few weeks and now it seems to be back in cork again. Similar can be said for I think it was FAW, again cork based but now seems to be in Dublin and has been replaced in cork with FAX. I may have the details of the last one wrong, but I'm certain about FCZ.

Just wondering how come they end up switched around? Returned to Dublin for Maintenance and then just placed where there is a requirement perhaps?

Secondly, out of the entire fleet, how many are EFIS equipped vs the Traditional analogue style setup?

Thanks :-)

Deatr

Some maintenance can only be performed in DUB so the 600s in ORK are generally swapped out in BRS or EDI.

All of the 600s are LCD screens (5) while the rest of the fleet would be semi EFIS with a CRT for the EADI and one for the EHSI, the rest of the instruments are standard analouge that includes the 42's.

pepe the prawn

Deatr wrote: »

Some maintenance can only be performed in DUB so the 600s in ORK are generally swapped out in BRS or EDI.

All of the 600s are LCD screens (5) while the rest of the fleet would be semi EFIS with a CRT for the EADI and one for the EHSI, the rest of the instruments are standard analouge that includes the 42's.

Just the type of answer I was looking for, thanks

PukkaStukka

Another ATR question if you please: I've noticed that when at the stand and loading pax that one prop is turning very slowly and I've seen the odd CFM-56 doing the same thing too. The engine isn't running as such but is turning very slowly. Any ideas why? Something to do with Air Con or maintaining oil pressure or lubrication??

eatmyshorts

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Another ATR question if you please: I've noticed that when at the stand and loading pax that one prop is turning very slowly and I've seen the odd CFM-56 doing the same thing too. The engine isn't running as such but is turning very slowly. Any ideas why? Something to do with Air Con or maintaining oil pressure or lubrication??

Windmilling due the wind blowing through it.

Skuxx

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Another ATR question if you please: I've noticed that when at the stand and loading pax that one prop is turning very slowly and I've seen the odd CFM-56 doing the same thing too. The engine isn't running as such but is turning very slowly. Any ideas why? Something to do with Air Con or maintaining oil pressure or lubrication??

Don't know anything about ATR's but for the CFM 56 (Airbus or Boeing) aircon would be supplied by the apu and engines wouldn't be started until pushback!

You can always tell a CFM 56-5 windmilling from the clacking sounds made by the mid-span shrouds!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STY80tHjKZg

Growler!!!

As eatmyshorts said its the prop windmilling or spinning due to wind. The turboprop engine used on the ATR series of aircraft is referred to as a "free turbine". It is free to spin when the engine is shut down.

The engine is a small jet engine whose exhaust, instead of being used to provide thrust, is used to spin another turbine and shaft which spins the propeller through a reduction gearbox. This shaft is not directly connected to the jet engine part and is free to spin. If you observe a pre flight walk around being carried out you will see the pilot spinning the left hand propeller to check each blade.

The right hand propeller is locked and the engine can be started without the prop spinning. This is called "Hotel mode" and is ATR's way of saving weight by not having a separate APU. In hotel mode DC electrics and air conditioning is available.

pepe the prawn

Growler!!! wrote: »

As eatmyshorts said its the prop windmilling or spinning due to wind. The turboprop engine used on the ATR series of aircraft is referred to as a "free turbine". It is free to spin when the engine is shut down.

The engine is a small jet engine whose exhaust, instead of being used to provide thrust, is used to spin another turbine and shaft which spins the propeller through a reduction gearbox. This shaft is not directly connected to the jet engine part and is free to spin. If you observe a pre flight walk around being carried out you will see the pilot spinning the left hand propeller to check each blade.

The right hand propeller is locked and the engine can be started without the prop spinning. This is called "Hotel mode" and is ATR's way of saving weight by not having a separate APU. In hotel mode DC electrics and air conditioning is available.

Does the propellor begin to spin immediately once the turbine starts building power or Is the prop engaged to the turbine manually once a certain amount of power is arrived at? Or is different for left and right engines seeing as the right hand one can be locked?

Thanks :-)

Deatr

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Does the propellor begin to spin immediately once the turbine starts building power or Is the prop engaged to the turbine manually once a certain amount of power is arrived at? Or is different for left and right engines seeing as the right hand one can be locked?

Thanks :-)

As Growler said the prop is connected to a turbine shaft via a reduction gearbox. Durning the start sequence the prop will start to turn once the high pressure turbine reaches a certain % of rpm.
Try the looking at smartcockpit for a diagram of the engine!

The reduction gearbox allows a brake to be fitted to the no2 engine.

Growler!!!

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Does the propellor begin to spin immediately once the turbine starts building power or Is the prop engaged to the turbine manually once a certain amount of power is arrived at? Or is different for left and right engines seeing as the right hand one can be locked?

Thanks :-)

The prop will spin straight away as soon as jet exhaust hits the turbine. Both engines are exactly the same except the #2 had the hydraulic prop brake. The prop brake locks the reduction gearbox so neither the prop or the turbine spin. The #2 engine can be started normally ie spinning if required.

Deatr

Growler are you rated on the ATR?

eatmyshorts

I've never quite fully understood props. All that constant speed, pitch change, rpm and torque stuff seems like witchcraft!

PukkaStukka

Thanks for the answers - thats what I love about this forum: good techie info explained in plain language!

Oh, and I didn't think it was the windmill effect but there you are, that's all it can be so in this instance

pepe the prawn

Another question for someone in the know...

With regards to short field landings in the ATR, i.e RWY 25 in EICK, must the pilot/pilots be rated for such a landing, or is it at the pilots discretion to pick the most suitable runway on the day... Reason I ask is because I have frequently seen quite a hefty wind blowing down the centre of 25 but many (but not all) of the Stobarts still go with 17...

CalmSummer

Runway 25 only has a VOR approach, whilst runway 17 has an ILS allowing a lower descent and reduced workload.

Growler!!!

Runway 25 is not a short runway and is as wide as runway 17. In the past it was a captains only landing as it has a 3.7 degree descent as opposed to the normal 3 degrees. No special requirements are in place now and first officers can and do land on 25. The great pilots will land and turn off at taxiway B, good pilots will turn at the intersection and average pilots will turn after the intersection:D

In regard to the choice of runway on windy days, it depends on the Captains choice. As described above 17 with even max crosswind can be advantageous due to lower minima in regard to cloudbase and RVR requirement.

pepe the prawn

Growler!!! wrote: »

The great pilots will land and turn off at taxiway B, good pilots will turn at the intersection and average pilots will turn after the intersection:D

.

I'll be out with the trundle wheel next time I see 25 in use for the ATR's so and separate the men from the boys

pepe the prawn

Another one for the ATR men..(or women)

Do the ATR's require power all the way down to touchdown? Ie, is power reduced to idle at a certain rad-alt call out or is there power on when it hits the deck? Last time I was a passenger on an ATR (about two years ago) it felt like there was a small amount of power on all the way down until the aircraft was planted and then reverse thrust applied...

Growler!!!

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Another one for the ATR men..(or women)

Do the ATR's require power all the way down to touchdown? Ie, is power reduced to idle at a certain rad-alt call out or is there power on when it hits the deck? Last time I was a passenger on an ATR (about two years ago) it felt like there was a small amount of power on all the way down until the aircraft was planted and then reverse thrust applied...

There shouldn't be. FCOM advices slowly closing power levers at 20ft rad alt. Once on the ground power levers can be moved from Flight idle to ground idle, this provides aerodynamic braking without a move into reverse.

Can you remember what the wind conditions were?

pepe the prawn

Growler!!! wrote: »

There shouldn't be. FCOM advices slowly closing power levers at 20ft rad alt. Once on the ground power levers can be moved from Flight idle to ground idle, this provides aerodynamic braking without a move into reverse.

Can you remember what the wind conditions were?

Ah, that answers that. Can't remember the wind but we landed on 17, reasonably mild weather if I remember correctly.

Thanks for the answer. :-)

highlydebased

Will the two latest arrivals be getting a paint into something more exotic than white I wonder?

Growler!!!

highlydebased wrote: »

Will the two latest arrivals be getting a paint into something more exotic than white I wonder?

I don't think it's in the lease agreement. In white they can fill in for EIR, BE or charter flights without the spotters getting excited. The GLA-ORK flight in the summer operated on a BE coloured 500 generated a frenzy at times on the local Facebook page.

pepe the prawn

Growler!!! wrote: »

I don't think it's in the lease agreement. In white they can fill in for EIR, BE or charter flights without the spotters getting excited. The GLA-ORK flight in the summer operated on a BE coloured 500 generated a frenzy at times on the local Facebook page.

I noticed that a few times alright :pac:

highlydebased

No sooner had I said the above- EI-FMJ at East Midlands this morning apparently with Air Livery for painting

highlydebased

And here it is, looking sharp in full EI Regional colours.
http://www.jetphotos.net/photo/8184908

pepe the prawn

Has EI-EHH been retired/sold? Last positioned to Southend a few weeks ago and I haven't seen it since..

The Nutty M

What is the setting or mode the turbines are in just after startup up but before thrust is produced by the props? I call it quiet mode but I'm sure it has a proper name. Is it just to bring the turbines online safely or thermal stablisation or what? And also, yesterdays trip on St Ollie P reminded me how quiet Finian , Conal and Ethna are in comparison. Has Ollie P had a harder life than the rest of them because the squeaks, rattles and vibrations of the panel interior were noticeably greater?

highlydebased

The Nutty M wrote: »

What is the setting or mode the turbines are in just after startup up but before thrust is produced by the props? I call it quiet mode but I'm sure it has a proper name. Is it just to bring the turbines online safely or thermal stablisation or what? And also, yesterdays trip on St Ollie P reminded me how quiet Finian , Conal and Ethna are in comparison. Has Ollie P had a harder life than the rest of them because the squeaks, rattles and vibrations of the panel interior were noticeably greater?

I think Hotel mode is the official name for what you refer to- the engine is running but the propeller is braked. It serves the same purpose as an APU then.

Growler!!!

There are 4 positions for the Condition Lever (propeller control). Fuel Shut Off, Feather, Auto and 100% Overide.

On start up the Condition Lever is moved from Fuel shutoff to Feather. Feather is the position where the propeller is positioned at right angles (90 degrees) to the airflow. This position ensures there is no load on the engine for start up. Even though it is a "free" turbine there would still be some torque generated if the prop was to bite into the air.

At an appropriate time, usually once ground crew have disconnected from the aircraft the condition levers are moved into the auto position and things get considerably nosier. In this position there is sufficient torque generated to move the aircraft once the parking brake is released.

100% Overide is used if the automatic control of the prop is lost for any reason and the Np (prop rotational speed) is brought to maximum. In this case 1200rpm.

Hotel mode is as described above and is only used on engine number 2 (RHS).

Honestly I don't know the saints names given to the individual aircraft and they are not referred to as such.

pepe the prawn

I see Stobart's newest ATR is now (for the moment) Cork based. This means that the three newest ATR's in the Stobart fleet are now ORK based, being FMJ, FMK & FNA. Anyone know if there is a particular reason behind this or is it just the way they worked out through maintenance etc? I would have thought the newest aircraft would either be spread across the bases or else located where the highest load factors are being encountered, ie putting your best and newest fleet in front of the largest amount of pax. Or does it not make a difference where they are based, maybe it's just a case of an aircraft, a demand and a location, anything beyond that is unimportant.

Just curious is all.

Shannon757

pepe the prawn wrote: »

I see Stobart's newest ATR is now (for the moment) Cork based. This means that the three newest ATR's in the Stobart fleet are now ORK based, being FMJ, FMK & FNA. Anyone know if there is a particular reason behind this or is it just the way they worked out through maintenance etc? I would have thought the newest aircraft would either be spread across the bases or else located where the highest load factors are being encountered, ie putting your best and newest fleet in front of the largest amount of pax. Or does it not make a difference where they are based, maybe it's just a case of an aircraft, a demand and a location, anything beyond that is unimportant.

Just curious is all.

Cork flights get more coverage on the FR24 thread:)

roundymac

Only the best for us down here boy,,, you can keep your A330s and 757s,

pepe the prawn

Saw this on Facebook on the Irish Aviation Leadership Group page, nice promo for Stobart :-)

http://newsletter.stobartair.com/files/2016-08_1_Video_Stobart_Air.mp4

mickdw

The ATRs appear to need to be flown nose down almost into the runway compared to a typical jet landing.
certainly they appear to use much less / much later flare on landing.
I'd that my imagination or why does that happen?

EchoIndia

mickdw wrote: »

The ATRs appear to need to be flown nose down almost into the runway compared to a typical jet landing.
certainly they appear to use much less / much later flare on landing.
I'd that my imagination or why does that happen?

They are not jets and also don't have leading-edge slats. Here are some example of other turboprops with a nose-down final approach profile.

G-BCDN F27-200 by Irish251, on Flickr
5A-DBN F27-600 by Irish251, on Flickr
G-APEM V953F Merchantman by Irish251, on Flickr
EI-BGO CL-44J by Irish251, on Flickr

roundymac

Flew from Southampton to Cork with them at the weekend, we were 25 minutes late departing due to them trying to get the weight balance right. They kept moving passengers to different parts of the plane until they were satisfied, made me quite nervous the whole thing did.

The_Wanderer

roundymac wrote: »

Flew from Southampton to Cork with them at the weekend, we were 25 minutes late departing due to them trying to get the weight balance right. They kept moving passengers to different parts of the plane until they were satisfied, made me quite nervous the whole thing did.

Couldn't the same thing happen on any aircraft though?

Locker10a

roundymac wrote: »

Flew from Southampton to Cork with them at the weekend, we were 25 minutes late departing due to them trying to get the weight balance right. They kept moving passengers to different parts of the plane until they were satisfied, made me quite nervous the whole thing did.

This happens on A320s and A321s too !!!

roundymac

Never seen it happen before.

Pat Dunne

roundymac wrote: »

Never seen it happen before.

Yeah, had a similar experience on a NAX 737-800 from LYR to OSL a few years back.

Got a row entirely to myself up the front end.

Great Wifi

pepe the prawn

Anyone seen or heard of EI-CBK since it went off the runway in Donegal back in September?

Oscar Bravo

it returned to service alright after that, but is gone again. it left Dublin on the 30th of October as STK100M to Germany.

L1011

I would assume that with the full schedule + the Flybe stuff out of SEN (if that isn't pulled) they are going to need the full complement of aircraft - is another going to be found?

Not a huge cost operating cost difference between an old -42 and a new(er) -72 on the PSO routes - extra crew the biggest one - but a huge difference in costs between owned and a new leased craft.

pepe the prawn

Just saw on Instagram that it's been scrapped and that EHH is soon to follow. But it's from a very unofficial source so may just be speculation.

EchoIndia

This site lists EI-CBK as on maintenance but that may be an interim stage:
https://www.mgl-spotter.de/mgl-movements/

Oscar Bravo

The 100M call sign would back that up. hopefully it will return.

pepe the prawn

EI-CBK back in service today, serviced Dublin-Kerry and Dublin-Isle of Man.

Scone190

Anybody know where they are sourcing the Embraers from ?

J.pilkington

Cant see a general Stobart thread so using this one as it seems most relevant.....

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0606/880511-stobart-air-to-invest-25m-as-part-of-growth-plan/
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/stobart-air-to-add-jet-aircraft-to-fleet-as-part-of-25m-expansion-1.3108670

Sounds like the recruitment was kicked off a long time ago and is close to completion

Article also references the two new Embraer E195 jet that were previously mentioned. Big change of direction for Stobart, having just ATRs in the fleet provided huge efficiencies so adding 2 jets will cause operations plenty of new challenges including maintenance / staffing etc

As part of its expansion plans, the airline is to add two jet aircraft to its fleet for the first time, which it says will allow it to fly more passengers on longer distances.

While jets will be located in Southend I'd imagine they will partly be used to fend off cityjet trying to get in on the EI regional work once contract comes up for renewal as it will prove their ability to run jets.