Tenant won't move out

novemberskye

Hi all! Just wondering if any one could help me out wit some advice. One of the tennants in the rented house I live in won't move out. As and from August her name is no longer on the lease it is just mine and other tennant. We really want this person out as they are always late paying bills, over using utilities and bringing back strangers. Also this person is not on speaking terms with anyone else in the house but still refusing to move out. Any advice please

athtrasna

Did that person have their name on the lease originally, and was the lease from the landlord? Whose decision was it to end their tenancy? How was it communicated to them?

novemberskye

athtrasna wrote: »

Did that person have their name on the lease originally, and was the lease from the landlord? Whose decision was it to end their tenancy? How was it communicated to them?

There was three names on the lease originally. It is ending in now the start of August. New lease is due in the coming week and other housemates refusing to sign it if she is living there so are going to sign up and return it landlord without her knowledge. No other housemate communicates or talks wit her. She was asked to leave in February and was going until last min she changed her mind and decided she was staying as her name is on lease until August.

athtrasna

You can't do that. Her lease is with the landlord as her name was on the original lease. As the tenancy has exceeded six months she has Part IV tenancy rights. Co-tenants can ask a tenant to leave but the tenant in question is under no obligation to do so.

Greenmachine

Options are to convince her to leave or leave yourself.

novemberskye

Thags great thanks for letting me know that. Is there any way around it? She won't move out yet can't see her taking over the lease on her own if remaining housemates decide to leave

Pawwed Rig

Don't sign any new lease and hand in your notice. The tenancy is not your problem once you leave. As stated you have no legal right to ask the person to leave.

novemberskye

Oh what hardship. Means all other tennants got to move out just because she won't go! Must be some other way around this no? If all other tenants are unhappy with her living there and they way she treats the house and late paying bills etc? Sorry to keep going on just very stressed over this

athtrasna

The tenant is on the lease and has tenancy rights. Your issues with her are not ground to nullify these rights as her lease is with the landlord and not with you.

Unclebumble

Can however be a bit smarter about it?

Firstly communicate with her and inform her that you and your fellow tenants are not going to renew the current lease when it expires and that you are going to inform the landlord of same.

Ask her if she intends to?

Find out from the landlord if he/she has heard from your awkward tenant in relation to renewing the lease.

If she is staying - you can't do anything. Go find somewhere new.
If she isn't staying - you can prepare a new lease with the landlord to commence as soon as the old one expires and the awkward tenant has to leave.

Would this work?

novemberskye

Unclebumble wrote: »

Can however be a bit smarter about it?

Firstly communicate with her and inform her that you and your fellow tenants are not going to renew the current lease when it expires and that you are going to inform the landlord of same.

Ask her if she intends to?

Find out from the landlord if he/she has heard from your awkward tenant in relation to renewing the lease.

If she is staying - you can't do anything. Go find somewhere new.
If she isn't staying - you can prepare a new lease with the landlord to commence as soon as the old one expires and the awkward tenant has to leave.

Would this work?

Looks like this is the only option for us. She will just make it as difficult as can be for us so she will still refuse to leave. The land lord does not want any part of it has just said he will give us the new lease and to put all remnants for the next year on to it. Such a nightmare

ABajaninCork

novemberskye wrote: »

Looks like this is the only option for us. She will just make it as difficult as can be for us so she will still refuse to leave. The land lord does not want any part of it has just said he will give us the new lease and to put all remnants for the next year on to it. Such a nightmare

I'd just not renew the lease and leave when it expires. It's a shame, but it's the neatest way out of the situation. The trouble tenant will then be the LL's bag.

novemberskye

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'd just not renew the lease and leave when it expires. It's a shame, but it's the neatest way out of the situation. The trouble tenant will then be the LL's bag.

I know! Just such a hassle to go viewing new places and will prob end up paying higher rent somewhere else. Oh well!

Thanks everyone for yer advice!

antoinolachtnai

novemberskye wrote: »

I know! Just such a hassle to go viewing new places and will prob end up paying higher rent somewhere else. Oh well!

Thanks everyone for yer advice!

Unfortunately it isn't as simple as leaving.

If the problematic joint tenant overholds (stays in the apartment) without paying rent you will all be liable for the full amount of the rent and any damage. If she stays or causes trouble you will certainly not get your deposit back. If you don't return vacant possession to the landlord you won't get a reference either.

It is not the landlord's problem. It is your problem.

There is no perfect course of action here but I think some form of your original idea is better if you have your landlord's cooperation.

I would contact Threshold.

athtrasna

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'd just not renew the lease and leave when it expires. It's a shame, but it's the neatest way out of the situation. The trouble tenant will then be the LL's bag.

You still need to give notice even with a fixed term lease. The issue is that the original tenants are all on the lease including the problem one so they are jointly liable for the rent and deposit.

novemberskye

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Unfortunately it isn't as simple as leaving.

If the problematic joint tenant overholds (stays in the apartment) without paying rent you will all be liable for the full amount of the rent and any damage. If she stays or causes trouble you will certainly not get your deposit back. If you don't return vacant possession to the landlord you won't get a reference either.

It is not the landlord's problem. It is your problem.

There is no perfect course of action here but I think some form of your original idea is better if you have your landlord's cooperation.

I would contact Threshold.

Can't see how I would be liable if I do not sign up to the new lease. We all pay rent separately to the landlord so he knows who has paid or not paid. If I decide to leave the remaining tennants will replace me at their own choice

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

antoinolachtnai

Because the tenant is liable for rent and damages until he/she/they hand back full vacant possession to the landlord. Abandoning the property with an occupier in place is overholding.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

novemberskye

The land lord is very understanding to our situation and if we decide not to renew lease he will allow for that once we give him a months notice.

Really just wanted to ask people where we stand legally or how to solve this horrible situation.

Thanks to all!

cerastes

athtrasna wrote: »

You still need to give notice even with a fixed term lease. The issue is that the original tenants are all on the lease including the problem one so they are jointly liable for the rent and deposit.

Im not so sure you need to give notice at the end of a fixed term lease to quit the property, if you dont communicate that you wish to stay within a month of the end of a fixed term lease then it can be reasonably be expected you no longer wish to stay on, however as nothing has been mentioned about a fixed term by the OP? then its not the main issue, the fact seems to be the property is let with a lease and they pay together.
The landlord is entitled to notice in a periodic lease and its reasonable and good sense to inform them of your intent in a fixed term lease scenario.

OP is it a fixed term or a periodic (more usual) lease? if there is no mention of fixed term then its the other.

The thing is, if the remaining tenants are going to inform the landlord they arent staying if the bad tenant stays, can she pay the rent on her own?
Id say if the other tenant gave notice to quit correctly and left, if the other tenant failed to leave, then Id consider that would not be their problem so long as they vacated the property. I cant see how they could be legally pursued where its hardly worthwhile to do it when bad tenants overhold anyway.

OP Id tell problem tenant, that you (the remaining tenants) no longer want to live with her but want to stay yourselves, if she declines to leave tell her everyone else will leave and the rest will quit the tenancy meaning she will pay the full amount, and can she afford that on her own? Id keep the landlord in the loop and try tell them how it might work out if they are only left with said bad tenant, but just to keep them in the loop, as really there is little they can do.

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If the lease is up when the OP says, they need to get moving to give legitimate notice to quit, tbh if the lease is signed by all, then notice to quit by one tenant could be construed as notice to quit jointly.

athtrasna

cerastes wrote: »

Im not so sure you need to give notice at the end of a fixed term lease to quit the property, if you dont communicate that you wish to stay within a month of the end of a fixed term lease then it can be reasonably be expected you no longer wish to stay on, however as nothing has been mentioned about a fixed term by the OP? then its not the main issue, the fact seems to be the property is let with a lease and they pay together.
The landlord is entitled to notice in a periodic lease and its reasonable and good sense to inform them of your intent in a fixed term lease scenario.

OP is it a fixed term or a periodic (more usual) lease? if there is no mention of fixed term then its the other.

The thing is, if the remaining tenants are going to inform the landlord they arent staying if the bad tenant stays, can she pay the rent on her own?
Id say if the other tenant gave notice to quit correctly and left, if the other tenant failed to leave, then Id consider that would not be their problem so long as they vacated the property. I cant see how they could be legally pursued where its hardly worthwhile to do it when bad tenants overhold anyway.

If the lease is up when the OP says, they need to get moving to give legitimate notice to quit, tbh if the lease is signed by all, then notice to quit by one tenant could be construed as notice to quit jointly.

This post indicates that notice is due at the end of a fixed term contract.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96307967#post96307967

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Because the tenant is liable for rent and damages until he/she/they hand back full vacant possession to the landlord. Abandoning the property with an occupier in place is overholding.

Not if the rooms are let separately, then you are responsible for your share only.

antoinolachtnai

The rooms aren't let separately in the current case. The tenants are joint.

cerastes

athtrasna wrote: »

This post indicates that notice is due at the end of a fixed term contract.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96307967#post96307967

Its a bit off topic, but I cant see where in even the link, that says a fixed term lease has to be ended by a notice?
only that
(but, in the case of a tenancy that is for a fixed period, unless it provides otherwise, only where there has been a failure by the party in relation to whom the notice is served to comply with any obligations of the tenancy).

which doesnt really suggest that either?
Maybe Im misreading that?

having said that, I think its a good idea to keep all informed, looks like the OPs way out along with the other tenants is either convince tenant everyone doesnt get on with to leave or leave themselves, potentially forcing her to leave too.

the groutch

does the landlord not have the option to not continue the lease beyond the fixed period and serve notice?

Michael D Not Higgins

the groutch wrote: »

does the landlord not have the option to not continue the lease beyond the fixed period and serve notice?

No, past 6 months and a tenant gains Part 4 rights which allows security of tenure in 4 year cycles. The landlord can only terminate the lease in specific circumstances (of which, ending of a fixed term is not one of them).

the_syco

novemberskye wrote: »

We really want this person out as they are always late paying bills, over using utilities and bringing back strangers. Also this person is not on speaking terms with anyone else in the house but still refusing to move out. Any advice please

Give a months notice, and find a new place with the existing housemates.

Leave the current person behind. Regarding "they are always late paying bills", let her know that all the bills will be put into her name. This may encourage her to eff off.

cerastes

athtrasna wrote: »

This post indicates that notice is due at the end of a fixed term contract.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96307967#post96307967

Im genuinely interested for a clarification on that? whats said in the post means very little, I saw the link to the act, and I cant discern which part says a fixed term requires notice to be given to end it, even though notice would at least be a common courtesy and good sense in practice, Im not sure its absolutely required.

The link to the act seems to suggest something else and not that a fixed term lease requires notice by either the tenant or landlord.

Michael D Not Higgins

cerastes wrote: »

Im genuinely interested for a clarification on that? whats said in the post means very little, I saw the link to the act, and I cant discern which part says a fixed term requires notice to be given to end it, even though notice would at least be a common courtesy and good sense in practice, Im not sure its absolutely required.

The link to the act seems to suggest something else and not that a fixed term lease requires notice by either the tenant or landlord.

Section 57 says it's applicable to all tenancies covered by the Act for termination by the landlord or tenant.

Section 58 details: "the termination by the landlord or the tenant... must be effected by means of a notice of termination that complies with this Part"

Section 62 says: "A notice of termination to be valid shall...be in writing, etc."

I did also clarify that I doubt anyone gives written notice to their landlord but they are required to give notice.

cerastes

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Section 57 says it's applicable to all tenancies covered by the Act for termination by the landlord or tenant.

Section 58 details: "the termination by the landlord or the tenant... must be effected by means of a notice of termination that complies with this Part"

Section 62 says: "A notice of termination to be valid shall...be in writing, etc."

I did also clarify that I doubt anyone gives written notice to their landlord but they are required to give notice.

I'll have a read through the sections in detail later, I did find something else on the PRTB website but I still rather see it in the act myself.

Under section 58, it says
"must be effected by means of a notice of termination that complies with this Part"

It seems vague as to what part its referring to, there is no reference there to section 62 as you have mentioned. Section 25 AND 26 which are mentioned refer to other things although section 26 may refer to it in someway by not reducing the rights of the tenant.

I found this on the PRTB website which suggests the Tenant has to give notice if they wish to quit, in the case of a years tenancy (fixed or otherwise) would be 35 days, but I believe there is an exclusion in the act if both parties agree to a lessor period in section 69.
It doesnt say that the landlord has to give notice at the end of a fixed term but, in that they could reasonably expect if the tenant has said nothing that the tenant/s are leaving after a fixed period.

"EXPIRY OF THE FIXED TERM If a tenant wishes to remain in occupation after the fixed term, the tenant must notify the landlord of his or her intention. This must be done not later than one month before the expiry of the fixed term tenancy nor any sooner than three months before it expires. If the tenant fails to do so and the landlord has suffered a loss as a result, the landlord may refer a dispute to the Private Residential Tenancies Board.
Once a fixed term tenancy comes to an end, in circumstances where the tenant remains in occupation and the landlord subsequently wishes to terminate the tenancy, the landlord can rely on the provisions of Section 34 to terminate the tenancy, as the fixed term has come to an end.
It is necessary for tenants to serve a Notice of Termination (NOT) where they do not intend to stay on after the expiry of the fixed term. The period of notice required should be calculated in accordance with Section 66.


In the case of a year tenancy (fixed) this seems to show that there is the potential for a 4-5 day discrepancy, in the information available.



In any case it has to be better for any tenant/s (but it doesnt say a landlord needs to provide a NOT) to give their notice in writing as per the act as then it cannot be said a notice was not given or misunderstood.

Michael D Not Higgins

cerastes wrote: »

I'll have a read through the sections in detail later, I did find something else on the PRTB website but I still rather see it in the act myself.

Under section 58, it says
"must be effected by means of a notice of termination that complies with this Part"

It seems vague as to what part its referring to, there is no reference there to section 62 as you have mentioned. Section 25 AND 26 which are mentioned refer to other things although section 26 may refer to it in someway by not reducing the rights of the tenant.

The Act is broken into parts, of which Part 5 "Tenancy Terminations — Notice Periods and other Procedural Requirements" is one. The sections 57-74 compose this part, so section 62 is a requirement for a valid termination notice. 25 and 26 are called up for Part 4 but as I have said, section 57 says it applies to all tenancies covered by the Act including those with Part 4 rights.