Struggling with LSR

Dutchie

I'm currently training for the Berlin marathon. This will be my 5th marathon with a PB of 2.55 in Frankfurt last year. I am again following P and d 18 week programme.
All mid-week Lactate Threshold, VO2 max and recovery sessions are going really well. I know this by how I'm feeling and comparing last years Garmin data.

However the LSR's have been a disaster. I have so far done a, 12m, 16m, 18m, 20m, 20m runs all on a Saturday morning. The last two miles of the 16 and 18 were tough to finish but I put this down to lack of form as this was the first time I had gone further than 12 miles since July 14.

Anyway yesterday took the biscuit. I basically blew up with 3 miles to go, stopping about 5 times finishing the last mile in 8.30, (avg pace 7.13)
I had taken 5 gels and plenty of hi-5 drink (250ml) with me and I stopped for 2 minutes to get more water on board about 3.5 miles from home. To the best of my knowledge I have never struggled like this before.

At this stage I am starting to become concerned with my endurance.
Any advice would be gratefully received. Thanks.

Clearlier

Dutchie wrote: »

I'm currently training for the Berlin marathon. This will be my 5th marathon with a PB of 2.55 in Frankfurt last year. I am again following P and d 18 week programme.
All mid-week Lactate Threshold, VO2 max and recovery sessions are going really well. I know this by how I'm feeling and comparing last years Garmin data.

However the LSR's have been a disaster. I have so far done a, 12m, 16m, 18m, 20m, 20m runs all on a Saturday morning. The last two miles of the 16 and 18 were tough to finish but I put this down to lack of form as this was the first time I had gone further than 12 miles since July 14.

Anyway yesterday took the biscuit. I basically blew up with 3 miles to go, stopping about 5 times finishing the last mile in 8.30, (avg pace 7.13)
I had taken 5 gels and plenty of hi-5 drink (250ml) with me and I stopped for 2 minutes to get more water on board about 3.5 miles from home. To the best of my knowledge I have never struggled like this before.

At this stage I am starting to become concerned with my endurance.
Any advice would be gratefully received. Thanks.

Have you worked out your pace range for the LSR's? Try running the whole of your next one right at the slowest end of the range.

clear thinking

Go to the doctor, get bloods done. rule out iron deficiency, viruses - eg glandular fever etc...

Hopefully you are just short on calories or something easily fixed.

Dutchie

Clearlier wrote: »

Have you worked out your pace range for the LSR's? Try running the whole of your next one right at the slowest end of the range.

Last week avg pace for 20m was 7.31. Still struggled towards end.

clear thinking wrote: »

Go to the doctor, get bloods done. rule out iron deficiency, viruses - eg glandular fever etc...

Hopefully you are just short on calories or something easily fixed.

I take supplements and I'm not feeling fatigued, but I think i will go to the Doc and get my bloods checked.

Thanks.

Runner Mojo

Is 7.31 not a bit fast for an LSR - isn't the point of an LSR to run a Long SLOW Run?

(That may read as me being sarcastic, I'm not being so - just asking what I feel to be a legitimate question)

dublin runner

Not for a 2.55 runner. 2.55 pace is around 6.41 pace so 7.31 is more than fine in my opinion.

I would echo the above. I would get your bloods taken. Other than that I would look very closely at my nutrition/hydration. I would l also look at the training as a whole, not just the one run in the week. It could be a sign of overtraining, manifesting itself in the long run.

Dutchie

dublin runner wrote: »

Not for a 2.55 runner. 2.55 pace is around 6.41 pace so 7.31 is more than fine in my opinion.

I would echo the above. I would get your bloods taken. Other than that I would look very closely at my nutrition/hydration. I would l also look at the training as a whole, not just the one run in the week. It could be a sign of overtraining, manifesting itself in the long run.

Yesterdays run avg pace was 7.13. I think I will get bloods checked out. I'm only running between 47-55 miles per week.

dublin runner

Dutchie wrote:

Yesterdays run avg pace was 7.13. I think I will get bloods checked out. I'm only running between 47-55 miles per week.

Ah, ok. I think that pace is fine but maybe try 7.20-7.30. Everyone is different.

rom

The problem with needing to take gels on your training run is that once you start taking them your blood sugar level spikes and you need to continue to take them until the end of the run. Have totally gone off gels and energy drink tbh. I don't train with it. Just water. To me training specifically LSR are about stress and recovery. If you are taking gels to reduce the stress then you don't get the max recovery. I would rather to go a tad slower and not needs gels or sports drink and not have your body depend on sugar spikes. What session are you doing on Thursday (presuming it is Thurs). Is it possible that you are simply not recovered from this session if you are doing it in the evening?

Regarding hydration how much do you drink on the long run. You say 250ml with you. I presume that you are drinking more than that? Similar level and probably similar goals to yourself and I would drink about 1.5 -2 liters on a LSR. tbh poor hydration is probably the biggest thing that causes me to bonk.

For the last marathon when did you do your long run. Did you happen to get a sleep in on Sat last time or something?

dublin runner

rom wrote:

Regarding hydration how much do you drink on the long run. You say 250ml with you. I presume that you are drinking more than that? Similar level and probably similar goals to yourself and I would drink about 1.5 -2 liters on a LSR. tbh poor hydration is probably the biggest thing that causes me to bonk.

You'd drink that much? That sounds an awful lot to me. Only in very hot/humid weather would I take anything onboard. You really shouldn't need much water if you are constantly well hydrated in the days and hours leading up to the long run (2hr+).

Dutchie

rom wrote: »

The problem with needing to take gels on your training run is that once you start taking them your blood sugar level spikes and you need to continue to take them until the end of the run. Have totally gone off gels and energy drink tbh. I don't train with it. Just water. To me training specifically LSR are about stress and recovery. If you are taking gels to reduce the stress then you don't get the max recovery. I would rather to go a tad slower and not needs gels or sports drink and not have your body depend on sugar spikes. What session are you doing on Thursday (presuming it is Thurs). Is it possible that you are simply not recovered from this session if you are doing it in the evening?

Regarding hydration how much do you drink on the long run. You say 250ml with you. I presume that you are drinking more than that? Similar level and probably similar goals to yourself and I would drink about 1.5 -2 liters on a LSR. tbh poor hydration is probably the biggest thing that causes me to bonk.

For the last marathon when did you do your long run. Did you happen to get a sleep in on Sat last time or something?

Fair point, placing more emphasis on hydration over gels is something I will do next LSR. Last Thursdays session was 8 miles with 5 x 800m efforts. I felt really good. Friday morning session was 5mile recovery, again flet very good. So I had 24 hours recovery between sessions.
How do you carry 1.5-2 ltr of water. I would never get close to drinking this much in an LSR or during a marathon.

dublin runner wrote: »

You'd drink that much? That sounds an awful lot to me. Only in very hot/humid weather would I take anything onboard. You really shouldn't need much water if you are constantly well hydrated in the days and hours leading up to the long run (2hr+).

I drink at least 750mm of high5 before LSR.

The main concern I have in this years marathon training programme is that I have not changed anything and I'm performing like this.
BTW, reason for the late reply was i raced the DLR 10km, came home and went to bed for 90 mins. Wrecked!

Myles Splitz

My 2c

Dial the pace back for 2 of every 3 Long runs (my personal opinion would be to in or around 7.45-8 min range). Although your body is able to handle these paces week in week out without getting injured I still feel you are under recovering.

You are running these at high end aerobic levels which are beneficial runs and can bring you on leaps and bounds if treated as a session (adequate recovery) but in the P & D plan they are not the designed as such with Vo2 max sessions, Medium length runs and tempo's included the aim for these is time on the feet and at 2.55 level 7.45 is plenty quick enough to get these benefits without compromising recovery.

rom

From what your saying it looks like you simply under recovered. Mon/Wed/Sat or Tues/Thurs/Sunday I would think.

ger664

Master or still under 35 ?

Dutchie

ger664 wrote: »

Master or still under 35 ?

39. This is my 5th marathon training cycle. Second time I've followed P and D.
The main concern I have is that I have not changed anything and am performing like this.

ger664

Dutchie wrote: »

39. This is my 5th marathon training cycle. Second time I've followed P and D.
The main concern I have is that I have not changed anything and am performing like this.

As we age we recover slower. If you read the P&D book he talks about the need for extra recovery for master athletes. While 39 is not old, you are still older then when you completed the last cycle.
Insufficient recovery between workouts might also take a cycle or two to manifest itself. While you may have felt okay in the last cycle the cumulative effect of that cycle may now be showing symptoms.

Has there been any change to your sleep pattern between cycles and if not are you sleeping a regular undisturbed 8-10 hours ?

kennyb3

Dutchie wrote: »

The main concern I have is that I have not changed anything and am performing like this.

You've changed nothing? Highly unlikely I'd imagine. Are you not aiming for a quicker time on this cycle? (hence changes pace wise) What about sleep, diet, life, stress, age etc.

dublin runner

Out of curiosity, when was your last marathon (and training cycle)?

rom

I was doing sessions tues/thurs and long run on Sunday. Had to move to session wed with tempo sat and longish run Sunday as I was simply not getting enough recovery for my last marathon. It meant that I was fresh going into it. I was hungry for every session in that format. I never dreaded a session as I used to before. Also its following the 20% rule that only 20% of your weekly running should be hard. Think Matt Fitzgerald harps on about that a lot.

Dutchie

ger664 wrote: »

As we age we recover slower. If you read the P&D book he talks about the need for extra recovery for master athletes. While 39 is not old, you are still older then when you completed the last cycle.
Insufficient recovery between workouts might also take a cycle or two to manifest itself. While you may have felt okay in the last cycle the cumulative effect of that cycle may now be showing symptoms.

Has there been any change to your sleep pattern between cycles and if not are you sleeping a regular undisturbed 8-10 hours ?

I've 3 young kids so there is not a hope of getting 8-10 hours undisturbed sleep. Probably getting 6-7 hours per night.

kennyb3 wrote: »

You've changed nothing? Highly unlikely I'd imagine. Are you not aiming for a quicker time on this cycle? (hence changes pace wise) What about sleep, diet, life, stress, age etc.

Yes, i'm aiming for slightly quicker time by approx 3 minutes. But as I said before nothing has changed in the way I am training/living during this training cylce and my previous, except of course my age!

dublin runner wrote: »

Out of curiosity, when was your last marathon (and training cycle)?

Frankfurt last year. (oct 14)

Thanks for all the advice, I am going to adjust the training and listen to my body, get more rest. I started taking Vitamin B2 and Iron supplements this week. Also i am going to get the bloods checked at the doc. Thanks. again