The most reliable car since 1990?

Lellostag

Hi there,

Having done some research into various cars recently with a view to replacing our '03 Mazda 6 diesel, I've found it increasingly difficult to find a car that isn't seemingly suffering from some fatal flaw, especially later models with all the complex electronics and whatnot...

So, this got me thinking, what in your experiences would be considered the most reliable car to own, diesel or petrol? I'm well able to do the mainenance and suchlike myself, so a slightly older car wouldn't scare me.

I have heard mostly positive things about Merc's w124, but no doubt there are other cars since 1990 that would have bullet proof reliability?

Look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments on this!

Cheers,
Joakim

Red Kev

Any 90's Corolla, Avensis or Carina.

/thread

Lellostag

Red Kev wrote: »

Any 90's Corolla, Avensis or Carina.

/thread

Thanks Kev!

I would tend to agree with you about 90's Toyotas, our second car is a '95 Starlet and we've had no problems with it in nearly 15 years of ownership.

Well, the alternator did need replacing a few years ago, and I had to clean the dizzy cap once as it started misfiring on occasion, but that's really it. Amazing car! A pity its not great for motorway cruising, orherwise we'd probably use it as our main car.

Azatadine

I'd say the Honda Civic, Accord petrol, Toyota Avensis, Corolla. Japanese in general I'd say.

bazz26

Anything Japanese built from that decade really. Corolla, Starlet, Carina, Accord, Civic, 323, 626, etc.

unkel

If you like the W124, buy one!

Probably the best built car ever. Many of them have over a million km on the clock at this stage. Next time you're somewhere abroad on a sun holiday look at your W124 taxi odometer. Back when new these cars cost about the same as semi-detached house in Dublin!

JohnBoy26

Any Honda or Toyota from the 90's are top of the pile when it comes to reliability.

Seweryn

unkel wrote: »

If you like the W124, buy one!

Probably the best built car ever. Many of them have over a million km on the clock at this stage. Next time you're somewhere abroad on a sun holiday look at your W124 taxi odometer. Back when new these cars cost about the same as semi-detached house in Dublin!

The beauty about the 124-series Mercedes-Benz is that it will run almost for ever, because if anything goes wrong, it can be fixed very cheaply. Most of the repairs you can do yourself using a standard set of tools that you get from your local shop. And you can keep doing it for as long as there is still any structure left that you can screw the bolts onto.
Another plus is the very high build quality that is very hard to match even by today's standards.
These machines were designed to last rather than to fail as it is the case with cars built today.

john_eire

lexus ls400

boredatwork82

I have owned 2 skodas, a 00 Octavia - no problems, it was a clocked ex taxi, and never gave me any bother, and a 03 Superb 200k + miles still going strong.

So I say Skoda!

lapua20grain

Had a Nissan Amera for years great car pretty bullet proof

Seweryn

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Any Honda or Toyota from the 90's are top of the pile when it comes to reliability.

After owning a Subaru Legacy from 1995 and a Honda Civic from 1997 I must say these cars were more less completely trouble free.

JohnBoy26

Seweryn wrote: »

After owning a Subaru Legacy from 1995 and a Honda Civic from 1997 I must say these cars were more less completely trouble free.

I think those old Civics are as reliable as cars get tbh.

Seweryn

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

I think those old Civics are as reliable as cars get tbh.

Yep, not sure what is in these cars that others do not have, but possibly the quality control and best materials for the job, simple, but well put together.

Lellostag

unkel wrote: »

If you like the W124, buy one!

Probably the best built car ever. Many of them have over a million km on the clock at this stage. Next time you're somewhere abroad on a sun holiday look at your W124 taxi odometer. Back when new these cars cost about the same as semi-detached house in Dublin!

Yeah, I've always liked the slightly "industrial" look of these barges, especially the estate version. Now just need to convince the wife that she'd look good driving "Der Panzer"...

Lellostag

Thanks all for your thoughts and comments, much appreciated!

Looks like it's pretty much between a w124 or then a 90's Toyota or Honda when it comes to finding a car with a minimum of unexpected trouble. No doubt though with the caveat that they've been well maintained throughout the years.

JohnBoy26

Lellostag wrote: »

Thanks all for your thoughts and comments, much appreciated!

Looks like it's pretty much between a w124 or then a 90's Toyota or Honda when it comes to finding a car with a minimum of unexpected trouble. No doubt though with the caveat that they've been well maintained throughout the years.

If you need something newer the 2002-2007 e12 corolla are pretty decent too.

Seweryn

Lellostag wrote: »

Yeah, I've always liked the slightly "industrial" look of these barges, especially the estate version.

Well said about the Industrial Look.
However, I am not sure if you are aware of the detail engineering that went into this "industrial look".

Would anyone believe that the basic W124 model 200 D/E has better Cx drag coefficient than many, many cars that look a lot more aerodynamic, i.e.:
- Mazda RX-8,
- Ferrari California,
- BMW M3,
- Koenigsegg CCX,
- Nissan 350Z.

And only some of the eco models of today are in line with the W124 aerodynamics, i.e.:
- Porsche 918,
- Toyota Prius,
- Peugeot 607,
and a few more.

It was an amazing "under the skin" design at the time that not many people knew about and still are not aware.

Lellostag

Some very interesting points there Seweryn, thanks!

Now just need to start looking for a well-kept w124 with a 2-litre engine (€710 a year in motor tax is enough for my taste)! And of course convince my wife about the brilliance of these cars...

bazz26

unkel wrote: »

If you like the W124, buy one!

Probably the best built car ever. Many of them have over a million km on the clock at this stage. Next time you're somewhere abroad on a sun holiday look at your W124 taxi odometer. Back when new these cars cost about the same as semi-detached house in Dublin!

Seweryn wrote: »

The beauty about the 124-series Mercedes-Benz is that it will run almost for ever, because if anything goes wrong, it can be fixed very cheaply. Most of the repairs you can do yourself using a standard set of tools that you get from your local shop. And you can keep doing it for as long as there is still any structure left that you can screw the bolts onto.
Another plus is the very high build quality that is very hard to match even by today's standards.
These machines were designed to last rather than to fail as it is the case with cars built today.

Except for rust on facelift models, paint cost cutting by Mercedes resulted in serious corrosion which killed many of them. Not a huge problem in sunnier climates but ones on these shores rotted.

Tommyboy40

The rust didn't start till later, when water based paint was used. The euro ncap is based on the testing Mercedes used for the W124. I run 2 every day and can't fault them. Main dealer parts are often cheaper than motor factors but do get advice on likely rust areas as the youngest W124 is 19 now

Lellostag

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

The rust didn't start till later, when water based paint was used. The euro ncap is based on the testing Mercedes used for the W124. I run 2 every day and can't fault them. Main dealer parts are often cheaper than motor factors but do get advice on likely rust areas as the youngest W124 is 19 now

Thanks Tommy for your comments, much appreciated. What engines does your cars have, and what kind of mpg do you generally get?

Seweryn

bazz26 wrote: »

Except for rust on facelift models, paint cost cutting by Mercedes resulted in serious corrosion which killed many of them. Not a huge problem in sunnier climates but ones on these shores rotted.

True, and the earlier ones were also rusting, but not any more than competition.
That is why I said that they are great until there is no metal left to screw the components onto.

My friend used to drive a 1987 300D model with a lot of extras including self levelling rear axle and came to a point when he had to replace the body due to rust. He bough a good body from a petrol donor car and put back his own engine and all the bits into it with 1,160,000 km already covered.

Seweryn

Lellostag wrote: »

Thanks Tommy for your comments, much appreciated. What engines does your cars have, and what kind of mpg do you generally get?

Let me also answer this question, if you do not mind.
An E200 or E220 later model with an automatic transmission (estate model) would do 30-35 mpg driven gently. This are the figures I was getting with my cars. A manual version and / or saloon will do better.

An S124 Diesel model, say E300 with the 24V engine and an auto transmission does 32-36 mpg (estate model), but an earlier W124 saloon 300D with manual gearbox is capable of 48 mpg. Unfortunately, it is rare that you will ever find one for sale over here.

Tommyboy40

I'd agree with the 30 - 35mpg with a light foot on the open road. i have 2 x 2.2l and a 5.0l.even the V8 will do 25 - 28 at motorway speeds. If you do have a little rust, repair panels are good value from the dealers. I ran a BMW E36 vert of a similar age and it practically ruined me, constantly needing work. I have mine serviced every 6000 miles. If you want a car that will last for years without problems, buy one, spend 5k or more on future proofing and you'll have a supremely comfortable car for years. That is what I did to mine
2015-04-05 14.14.45small.jpg

Lellostag

Thanks Seweryn and Tommyboy for your responses. Sounds like you'd get pretty decent mpg figures for the smaller petrol engines (and obviously the diesels) after all.

On the whole I'm intrigued with the w124 models, and will keep an eye out to see if I eventually can find a suitable (preferably an estate) one to replace our current '03 Mazda6 estate, all going well. I also like it for its relative simplicity compared to a more modern car, so I could do much more of the maintenance and repairs myself.

Lellostag

Tommyboy40 wrote: »

I'd agree with the 30 - 35mpg with a light foot on the open road. i have 2 x 2.2l and a 5.0l.even the V8 will do 25 - 28 at motorway speeds. If you do have a little rust, repair panels are good value from the dealers. I ran a BMW E36 vert of a similar age and it practically ruined me, constantly needing work. I have mine serviced every 6000 miles. If you want a car that will last for years without problems, buy one, spend 5k or more on future proofing and you'll have a supremely comfortable car for years. That is what I did to mine
2015-04-05 14.14.45small.jpg

Hi Tommyboy, just thought I'd also ask what kind of future proofing you have done to your cars?

Thanks!

BrianD3

I think you're mad to be considering a W124 if looking for a reliable car. I suspect you have been reading too many exaggerated horror stories about modern cars.

The most reliable post 1990 car in 2015 isn't a 20 year old W124 or a 20 year old Corolla or Honda either.

20 years of wear and tear, multiple owners, crash repairs, body rust, rusting exhausts, working cat needed to pass NCT emissions, perished rubber, leaking seals, degraded wire insulation, rusting brake lines, NCT every year, poor safety by modern standards etc. The W124 was great in its day but that day is a long time ago. Actually if forced to choose a 20 year old car for reliability I'd probably pick a 100 series Corolla before a W124.

It's funny that posters are talking about how old Mercs can keep going until there is "no more metal to screw into" and they didn't rust any worse than the competition and how you can get repair panels from the dealer - as if these are positives. Me, I prefer cars that are not rusting and won't do so for several years! Body rust is a major pain the arse to put right unless you have metalworking/body repair and painting skills and plenty of time.

The good thing about a car like a W124 is it is finished depreciating and may appreciate in coming years and could end up costing considerably less than a more reliable new car which depreciates more. But old cars are hassle for average/normal usage. Good as a classic or as a hobby or for doing low mileage in a city perhaps.

RE: million km taxis in other countries - different countries, different climates, different culture. Also those cars may well have had the same owner for a long time and be like Trigger's Broom.

The most reliable car in 2015 in my view is
-new or newish
-relatively simple by modern standards
-well proven mechanicals
-doesn't have unnecessary complications such as an electric handbrake
-does well in the ADAC Pannenstatistik (breakdown statistics) reports from Germany
https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/

As can be seen from this there are several cars with very good reliability ratings - from the Toyota Aygo to the BMW 1 series. The W124 was highly rated too - in the 1996 report.

It's apparent from these reports that the older the car, the lower the threshold it has to meet to gain a particular rating. Eg in the latest report, 2012 cars need a score of 2.6 to get the best dark green rating while a 2005 car only needs a score of 26.8 to get a dark green rating - showing that the ADAC expects older cars to break down more which is the reality.

JohnBoy26

I agree that the w124 is not really the best option in this day and age but I wouldn't say a mk1 aygo is a great car either. It's modern yes but it's flimsy, especially for Toyota standards and it's engine isn't the best. It's also very small. Not sure about the BMW being so great either.

Something like an e12 corolla is modern, safe, very reliable, economic and well built. It's what I'd opt for if in the op's shoes.

ComfortKid

Toyota Starlet without a doubt. Especially the pre 96 models. We had a few of them up the woods and as much as we tried we could not kill the cars.

selous

I've an 08 Subaru legacy diesel, F.S.S.H, 160km the only thing that has gone wrong on it is a brake light went. E390 year road tax, 6l/100km, I'm afraid to get rid of it in case the next one isn't as good.

Tommyboy40

BrianD3 wrote: »

I think you're mad to be considering a W124 if looking for a reliable car. I suspect you have been reading too many exaggerated horror stories about modern cars.

The most reliable post 1990 car in 2015 isn't a 20 year old W124 or a 20 year old Corolla or Honda either.

20 years of wear and tear, multiple owners, crash repairs, body rust, rusting exhausts, working cat needed to pass NCT emissions, perished rubber, leaking seals, degraded wire insulation, rusting brake lines, NCT every year, poor safety by modern standards etc. The W124 was great in its day but that day is a long time ago. Actually if forced to choose a 20 year old car for reliability I'd probably pick a 100 series Corolla before a W124.

It's funny that posters are talking about how old Mercs can keep going until there is "no more metal to screw into" and they didn't rust any worse than the competition and how you can get repair panels from the dealer - as if these are positives. Me, I prefer cars that are not rusting and won't do so for several years! Body rust is a major pain the arse to put right unless you have metalworking/body repair and painting skills and plenty of time.

The good thing about a car like a W124 is it is finished depreciating and may appreciate in coming years and could end up costing considerably less than a more reliable new car which depreciates more. But old cars are hassle for average/normal usage. Good as a classic or as a hobby or for doing low mileage in a city perhaps.

RE: million km taxis in other countries - different countries, different climates, different culture. Also those cars may well have had the same owner for a long time and be like Trigger's Broom.

The most reliable car in 2015 in my view is
-new or newish
-relatively simple by modern standards
-well proven mechanicals
-doesn't have unnecessary complications such as an electric handbrake
-does well in the ADAC Pannenstatistik (breakdown statistics) reports from Germany
https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/

As can be seen from this there are several cars with very good reliability ratings - from the Toyota Aygo to the BMW 1 series. The W124 was highly rated too - in the 1996 report.

It's apparent from these reports that the older the car, the lower the threshold it has to meet to gain a particular rating. Eg in the latest report, 2012 cars need a score of 2.6 to get the best dark green rating while a 2005 car only needs a score of 26.8 to get a dark green rating - showing that the ADAC expects older cars to break down more which is the reality.

There is a lot of truth in what you are saying. Modern cars are extremely reliable and cheap to own but honestly, would you own a horrible eurobox or Japanese hatchback? they might be sensible choices but so dull. In the 8 years I've owned my SL500 its needed;
10 sets of plugs, €24 for 8 at the dealer
10 oil filters, €10 again dealer prices
20 air filters, €10ish
1 tie rod, €50
Battery €160
4 foglight lenses €21
Double ventilated front discs and pads, €220
Brake light switch, €15
Poly V Belt, €24
2 x sets tyres, €2,000
I service all my cars at 6000 miles
All these prices are dealer prices, often considerably less than motor factors. These cars were built to be repaired rather than replaced. When you break a foglight, you replace the lens instead of the whole unit. Obviously you're buying a 20 year old car so certain future proofing needs to be done. When I bought my w124 coupe (1996, 125000 miles full dealer history) I knew that it would need work to prevent deterioration. I paid €1700 for the car, spent roughly €5,500 on a complete strip and respray. This involved replacing every external rubber and seal, replacing the rear window and a front wing and multiple small stupid clips. I now own a perfectly smooth and stunning car which stands out from the soulless diesel ecoboxes and all for less than the cost of a second hand Mondeo

biko

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100
Honda Jazz

http://www.gizmag.com/the-100-most-reliable-cars-of-the-last-decade-in-order/5657/
Honda Accord

Lellostag

biko wrote: »

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100
Honda Jazz

http://www.gizmag.com/the-100-most-reliable-cars-of-the-last-decade-in-order/5657/
Honda Accord

Thanks biko, interesting reading! Perhaps an Accord should be considered after all...

selous

Check what the insurance is on the Honda, afaik any Honda has a "loading" on it. guy in work told me his insurance on his Accord almost doubled. if this aint a problem, nice car.

Lellostag

selous wrote: »

Check what the insurance is on the Honda, afaik any Honda has a "loading" on it. guy in work told me his insurance on his Accord almost doubled. if this aint a problem, nice car.

Thanks selous, I haven't looked at insurance costs at all yet. Will look into the various car alternatives and see where we're at in that regard.

Lellostag

BrianD3 wrote: »

I think you're mad to be considering a W124 if looking for a reliable car. I suspect you have been reading too many exaggerated horror stories about modern cars.

The most reliable post 1990 car in 2015 isn't a 20 year old W124 or a 20 year old Corolla or Honda either.

20 years of wear and tear, multiple owners, crash repairs, body rust, rusting exhausts, working cat needed to pass NCT emissions, perished rubber, leaking seals, degraded wire insulation, rusting brake lines, NCT every year, poor safety by modern standards etc. The W124 was great in its day but that day is a long time ago. Actually if forced to choose a 20 year old car for reliability I'd probably pick a 100 series Corolla before a W124.

It's funny that posters are talking about how old Mercs can keep going until there is "no more metal to screw into" and they didn't rust any worse than the competition and how you can get repair panels from the dealer - as if these are positives. Me, I prefer cars that are not rusting and won't do so for several years! Body rust is a major pain the arse to put right unless you have metalworking/body repair and painting skills and plenty of time.

The good thing about a car like a W124 is it is finished depreciating and may appreciate in coming years and could end up costing considerably less than a more reliable new car which depreciates more. But old cars are hassle for average/normal usage. Good as a classic or as a hobby or for doing low mileage in a city perhaps.

RE: million km taxis in other countries - different countries, different climates, different culture. Also those cars may well have had the same owner for a long time and be like Trigger's Broom.

The most reliable car in 2015 in my view is
-new or newish
-relatively simple by modern standards
-well proven mechanicals
-doesn't have unnecessary complications such as an electric handbrake
-does well in the ADAC Pannenstatistik (breakdown statistics) reports from Germany
https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/

As can be seen from this there are several cars with very good reliability ratings - from the Toyota Aygo to the BMW 1 series. The W124 was highly rated too - in the 1996 report.

It's apparent from these reports that the older the car, the lower the threshold it has to meet to gain a particular rating. Eg in the latest report, 2012 cars need a score of 2.6 to get the best dark green rating while a 2005 car only needs a score of 26.8 to get a dark green rating - showing that the ADAC expects older cars to break down more which is the reality.

Thanks Brian for your comments and reasoning. I agree that a new car will obviously be far more reliable than a 20 year old car of any make. However, I probably should've qualified my original post a bit better, as in I'm pondering the "best" alternative within a limited initial budget of say €3k - €4k, while it also needs to be reasonably good driving motorways.

I do like a bit older cars for their relative simplicity to do a good bit of the maintenance myself. I also like cars with a bit of feel food factor, hence my interest in the W124. It could potentially be a car we'd keep long-term until it would qualify for vintage tax.

I'm the first to admit it is not easy to find a good older car that could be "recommissioned" to last for many more years without spending a fortune in the process, but the research and search is part of the fun!

What I end up eventually buying I have no idea, but I'm in no real rush and want to consider various alternatives which aren't necessarily the most obvious and "safe" choices.