Homebrew Bar

Lucio

Anyone know whats the legalities behind having a place where people pay a membership where they can brew their own beers(we supply facilites) and they drink their own beer or give it to friends? Does it need a normal licence?

Peregrinus

If you're just providing, e.g., an industrial premises equipped for brewing, and people pay for the right to use the premises and the equipment to brew their own beer from their own barley, malt, hops, etc, and then they take the product away, I don't think you need an excise licence. You do, of course, need planning permission, and your premises will have to comply with the laws regulating places where food is produced. If you do need a licence, it's a brewer's licence, which is not expensive (relative to the other costs you will be incurring).

But if your project also involves people drinking their beer on the premises, or supplying it to other to drink, that's a different kettle of fish. In general if people (a) pay money, and (b) get to drink beer, the Revenue are unimpressed with arguments that they are not buying the beer. As far as the Revenue are concerned, you're running a pub and you need the usual pub licence. The fact that you don't own the beer they drink is irrelevant; the beer drunk in lots of pubs in fact does not belong to the publican. The fact that the punters already own the beer is unusual but not, I think, something that would persuade the Revenue that this is not a premises which needs a licence.

L1011

Even if you managed to convince Revenue that it didn't need a pub licence; its pretty much a given that the local council will consider it needs correct planning permission for a pub.

n97 mini

1. Appropriate planning permission is required.
2. HSE/HACCP requirements need to be met.
3. A brewer's licence is required.
4. Duty needs to be paid on all alcohol produced (this is a whole can of worms in itself)

Muahahaha

What this sounds like to me is more a Homebrewers club than a pub. You should check out club licenses as they are a lot cheaper than an ordinary publicans license.
http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0/740d0dc9e06a3a8180256d2b0046a055?OpenDocument

Being a club has more restrictions than a public house, you have to keep membership records, etc. But in general any group of people can form a club around a collective interest (football, pidgeon racing, etc) and then apply for a club license to permit the sale of alcohol.

Regards your Revenue problem I'm not sure. I think you'd need advice from a licensing law solicitor to be absolutely sure. That said AFAIK legislation on these things usually refers to 'alcohol for sale or supply", the supply bit being important here as it prevents people 'giving' beer away for free as even if you're not selling it you are still supplying it.

n97 mini

This is really not a bar licensing issue, but a food manufacturing issue. If beer is fermented on a commercial premises, under the law it's commercial beer and needs duty paid etc.

oblivious

Muahahaha wrote: »

Regards your Revenue problem I'm not sure. I think you'd need advice from a licensing law solicitor to be absolutely sure. That said AFAIK legislation on these things usually refers to 'alcohol for sale or supply", the supply bit being important here as it prevents people 'giving' beer away for free as even if you're not selling it you are still supplying it.

Yep you cannot benefit in kind from the transaction

testaccount123

n97 mini wrote: »

This is really not a bar licensing issue, but a food manufacturing issue. If beer is fermented on a commercial premises, under the law it's commercial beer and needs duty paid etc.

What constitutes a commercial premises though? Where does a club with paid membership though rates exempt fall?

BeerNut

If you can't get access to the beer without paying a membership fee then the beer is effectively being sold and attracts all the usual requirements for commercial beer.

testaccount123

BeerNut wrote: »

If you can't get access to the beer without paying a membership fee then the beer is effectively being sold and attracts all the usual requirements for commercial beer.

Hmm. I can see a homebrew club where plenty of the beer gets given away or swapped for other beer. Both to non-fee paying visitors and outside the club. None of it is directly sold. I cant see Revenue being interested.

Peregrinus

testaccount123 wrote: »

Hmm. I can see a homebrew club where plenty of the beer gets given away or swapped for other beer. Both to non-fee paying visitors and outside the club. None of it is directly sold. I cant see Revenue being interested.

If you're letting in "non-fee paying visitors", that's the public. If you are supplying beer to the public, yes, the Revenue are interested. Very interested. The premises on which you do that needs a licence.

FlipperThePriest

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you're letting in "non-fee paying visitors", that's the public. If you are supplying beer to the public, yes, the Revenue are interested. Very interested. The premises on which you do that needs a licence.

What if the premises holder does not supply beer? What if the premises holder is simply providing a premises (club) for which home brewing enthusiast come and drink their own or swap beers? Free membership but donations welcome ahem.

testaccount123

zippy84 wrote: »

Free membership but donations welcome ahem.

How do you run a club with no income though?

A group of us are planning on setting up a club within an existing (non beer related) clubs premises for brewers to brew onsite. The beer will obviously be consumed on site. It doesnt sound like we can do it legally.

FlipperThePriest

testaccount123 wrote: »

How do you run a club with no income though?

It does seem tricky. Could you not say that for membership, all that is required is your signature upon entry. Fee is not 'compulsory' but because of the nature of the club it is well known that donation is accepted as the norm. Or membership is free but a fee of 10eu on entry gets you a table and 2 free games of pool or whatever? I'm just throwing it out there, I don't really know the legalities of what I'm suggesting, just curious, and hoping someone can correct me otherwise.

oblivious

There is still a benefit in kind happening,

FlipperThePriest

oblivious wrote: »

There is still a benefit in kind happening,

Yes and it could be taxed, but it doesn't relate to alcohol duty, therefore no licence required?

BeerNut

zippy84 wrote: »

I don't really know the legalities of what I'm suggesting, just curious, and hoping someone can correct me otherwise.

Nobody here is qualified to answer your questions. You really need to talk to a solicitor.

BaZmO*

BeerNut wrote: »

Nobody here is qualified to answer your questions. You really need to talk to a solicitor.

Indeed. Locking this.