The death of courtesy

TwoGallants

What I'm going to say is deeply unscientific, as in, I have no data or studies to back up what I'm going to say. But when I travel around Europe, and I have seen much of Spain and France, when I travel around Europe I very rarely feel intimidated like I do in Dublin or other parts of Ireland. I can count maybe fifty bad experiences I had when living in Dublin (From the mundane, ie a drug addict aggresively asking you for money or a cigarette, to the more extreme, ie, my foreign girlfriend shouted at by a load of youths, told to go back to her ****ing country...) but zero from Spain. I had one or two run ins late at night, but mostly this was because I was in the most touristic part of a city. Where I live, in Barcelona, I almost never see what we might class as anti social behaviour, which is very commonplace in Dublin.

I'd just like to know your thoughts. Is there something in the Irish character? Some flaw in the building of these estates where so many social problems are focused (I find it interesting that in Spain poor people are distributed fairly evenly throughout the cities, there are only a handful of 'ghettos'.) I feel there may be a lot of explanations for this cultural difference, but to be honest, I don't particularly want to return to Dublin with my foreign girlfriend, or her foreign family. They have been subject to racial abuse by low minded simpletons too many times.

fleet

Surely a wind up?

No antisocisl behaviour in Barcelona??

Pull the other one, a gunman opened fire on Las Ramblas not two days ago!

http://www.thejournal.ie/la-rambla-shooting-2240492-Jul2015/

While I seriously doubt you would have any problems with your family in Ireland there is more acceptance of low level aggressive behaviour in Ireland(cities ) not serious violence just shouting aggressively that sort of thing.


The reason you don't get it as much in some other European countries is the police in a lot of continental countries are very heavy handed you would not mess with them and they are every where even on trains, or maybe its cultural I don't know.

TwoGallants

First of all, I'm not really referring to violent crime. There are in gangs in European countries, just like Ireland so thats hardly the point. I'm talking about anti social behaviour, particularly among young people. Every time that I'm in Dublin I'm amazed by the consistent lack of courtesy shown by Dubs to everyone else. Its a rough and mean culture that just isn't present in many European countries. Often I hear the same from people who've lived or visited Dublin - 'Lovely city, nice pubs, some really great people but the adolescents are a nightmare'.

Pat Mustard

I wonder about this, as to whether the situation should be summed up as the death of courtesy.

OP, I'd suggest that what you have experienced is a public order or discipline problem, which seems to be a relatively new thing in Ireland.

If you looked back to the 1950s and 1960s, Ireland was controlled by the Catholic Church. Religious orders controlled education. Children were forced to learn larges sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church by rote. They were forced to recite it and if they made mistakes, they were brutally physically punished.

Furthermore, beyond schooling, the Church controlled other matters, and influenced lawmaking from matters such as healthcare to contraception. Even if you look at third level education, the Catholic Church forbade Catholics from studying at Trinity College, Dublin.

I am not 100% certain of this source, but it looks right to me. It states that in the early 1990s, 90% of the Irish population were regular mass-goers but that in 2011, only 18% of the population were. The fact is that the power of the Church has waned dramatically. With that has come attempts to reduce the influence of the Church in the national education system.

I would suggest that since the grip of the Catholic Church has been loosened, the force which kept the people under the thumb is gone. A void has been created. Nothing has filled that void.

Furthermore, perhaps there is something else. Corporal punishment has been removed from schools since the early 1980s. It had been proposed to prohibit its use outright but I am unsure if this has been implemented, yet.

It used to be the case in schools, that a disruptive child could be kicked out of the class to stand outside. It is my understanding that this is not allowed any more, for insurance reasons. Having spoken to a number of teachers, I have been told that there can be a discipline problem in Irish schools because there is little sanction for disruptive pupils.

I would imagine that the lack of discipline in Irish schools combined with the loss of power of the Church has created a void out of which has sprung a discipline problem, maybe even a public order problem. Louts may engage in antisocial behaviour and the only people who confront them are the police.

If we look at the Gardai, they have undergone changes since the days of Lugs Brannigan, a Garda who achieved notoriety for various reasons, and who was known to mete out his own brand of heavy-handed justice to troublemakers. These days, Gardai are subject to the oversight of the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission (GSOC). I'm not saying that this is a bad thing overall but what I suggest is that it must make them considerably more circumspect in dealing with antisocial behaviour of the type mentioned here. I suspect that it may make them slower to react, which may give the wrong impression to an antisocial troublemaker.

I wonder about the possibility of compulsory military service (or lack thereof) having an effect on the problems mentioned by the OP. I don't know enough to say for sure.

Manach

As someone who regards the Church's influence on society as a positive, works by authors like Theodore Dalyrymple point to the decline of commonality in Western society. This loosens the social bonds and fractures the sense of community : leading to an enfantilism and a self-identification with the individual and gratification being the core driving forces of society. Thus in parallel there is a growing divide between modern Western norms and modes of expression as to what is right and correct and other more communal traditional societies. This was highlighted in the Jonathan Haidt's works, for instance in "Righteous Mind". While Pat Mustard's last point echo's a point made by the writer of Scifi Robert Heinlein that a commonality of experience will engender courtesy in a society, the increasing fractured nature ideas to say what is right/wrong would suggest that time has passed until the next shift in generation thinking back to historical norms.

Pat Mustard

Manach, although I am unfamiliar with all of the other writers that you mention, I think that it is interesting that you mention Robert Heinlein. He wrote about an armed society which was very polite because of the threat of violence.

If we look at manners in the Southern States of the United States, perhaps there is a parallel, insofar as although these people may not necessarily be armed in most cases now, the politeness remains as a hangover from a more violent era when if a person was impolite to another, a gunfight could arise.

In my own view, people in the Southern States of the US have acquired a studied politeness, and again in my own view, perhaps this is a hangover from a time when strangers who met each other were likely to be armed.

In short, a lack of politeness could have meant death or serious injury, in that era. Even moving into a more modern era, I think that the politeness remains, but I am unsure if the entire threat has been removed.

zeffabelli

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Manach, although I am unfamiliar with all of the other writers that you mention, I think that it is interesting that you mention Robert Heinlein. He wrote about an armed society which was very polite because of the threat of violence.

If we look at manners in the Southern States of the United States, perhaps there is a parallel, insofar as although these people may not necessarily be armed in most cases now, the politeness remains as a hangover from a more violent era when if a person was impolite to another, a gunfight could arise.

In my own view, people in the Southern States of the US have acquired a studied politeness, and again in my own view, perhaps this is a hangover from a time when strangers who met each other were likely to be armed.

In short, a lack of politeness could have meant death or serious injury, in that era. Even moving into a more modern era, I think that the politeness remains, but I am unsure if the entire threat has been removed.

It's also incredibly two faced in the southeast. That's the other side of manners. You don't actually know how any one feels about anything.

Manach

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's also incredibly two faced in the southeast. That's the other side of manners. You don't actually know how any one feels about anything.

Historical that was true about the Japanese as well. From a few books I'd read on the historical Imperial period of Japanese expansion, the Western diplomats could not understand the nuances of what the Japanese were stating (given the esteem both courtesy and "face" - this break down being on of the reasons for the Pacific war. Thus perhaps a flip side/benefit to the death of courtesy, bluntness and leaving no room for mis-understanding.

zeffabelli

Manach wrote: »

Historical that was true about the Japanese as well. From a few books I'd read on the historical Imperial period of Japanese expansion, the Western diplomats could not understand the nuances of what the Japanese were stating (given the esteem both courtesy and "face" - this break down being on of the reasons for the Pacific war. Thus perhaps a flip side/benefit to the death of courtesy, bluntness and leaving no room for mis-understanding.

Generally speaking people from the Northeast, which is very direct, struggle with the subtexts and two facedness of the southeast because they are used to knowing where they stand. The southeast, is so polite you have no idea who hates you. Leads to a lot of backstabbing and backbiting. Manners are strictures, codes and prohibitions on what you can say, who can say what, and when..... so no one steps out of line....

But they are very well mannered. Some people like this.

When I have read about British ww2 spies, what struck me was how great they were at coded language and subtext....likely from coming from a highly mannered and coded culture.

I've also seen courtesy used as a way to mask cowardice.

NIMAN

I've been pick-pocketed in both Madrid and Barcelona, never in Belfast or Dublin.

Have been in many countries around Europe and the world, and always found the Irish the friendliest people around. Have yet to meet a nation thats nicer tbh.

TwoGallants

NIMAN wrote: »

I've been pick-pocketed in both Madrid and Barcelona, never in Belfast or Dublin.

... By professional criminals... You don't seem to get the distinction. Anyway, I've lived in Spain for two years, have never been a victim of crime. Out of all my Irish/English mates I've only ever met one who has been robbed, and this was mostly because a group of his mates came over from Cork and they were boistrous and drunk in the city center. In my experience the obvious tourist types are targeted, especially if they hang around with large groups of 'gillys' and they've had a bit of drink in them, easy pickings.

Have been in many countries around Europe and the world, and always found the Irish the friendliest people around. Have yet to meet a nation thats nicer tbh.

I agree Irish people are great and I'm very proud to be Irish. One of the things I've noticed most during my travels is how glad I am to speak to an Irish person when I'm stuck in some hillside village, looking to find out when the pharmacy is open for example (Irish people seem to pop up everywhere, never figured out why yet!)

I'm referring to an urban subculture, sometimes called an underclass, who frequently exhibit bad manners almost as a part of their identity.

My thanks to the other posters who have offered some interesting ideas.

K.O.Kiki

MOD Note:
This does not add to the debate/discussion standard of Humanities.

MrWalsh

Theres a lot of mouthy scumbaggery in Irish culture and it is not restricted to Dublin.

One of the worst experiences I have had was someone physically attacking me in a chipper in Cavan because I had a Dublin accent.

Its the "What are you looking at" aggression that seems to go unchecked.

I have seen similar behaviour in the UK.

testaccount123

TwoGallants wrote: »

... By professional criminals... You don't seem to get the distinction. Anyway, I've lived in Spain for two years, have never been a victim of crime. Out of all my Irish/English mates I've only ever met one who has been robbed, and this was mostly because a group of his mates came over from Cork and they were boistrous and drunk in the city center. In my experience the obvious tourist types are targeted, especially if they hang around with large groups of 'gillys' and they've had a bit of drink in them, easy pickings.



I agree Irish people are great and I'm very proud to be Irish. One of the things I've noticed most during my travels is how glad I am to speak to an Irish person when I'm stuck in some hillside village, looking to find out when the pharmacy is open for example (Irish people seem to pop up everywhere, never figured out why yet!)

I'm referring to an urban subculture, sometimes called an underclass, who frequently exhibit bad manners almost as a part of their identity.

My thanks to the other posters who have offered some interesting ideas.

Ive been to Barcelona twice, the first time a member of our group was stabbed, the second time someone was mugged. Dublin is much safer than Barcelona.

There seems to be a perception of Dublin as dangerous, seemingly due to some innate fear of working class people among some of Irelands population.

TwoGallants

testaccount123 wrote: »

Ive been to Barcelona twice, the first time a member of our group was stabbed, the second time someone was mugged. Dublin is much safer than Barcelona.

And again I'm not saying anything about violent crime. People come here and treat Barcelona as a theme park, but the truth is it can be dangerous, people can be so naive and do things abroad they would never dream of doing in their own countries.

There seems to be a perception of Dublin as dangerous, seemingly due to some innate fear of working class people among some of Irelands population.

That is so weak. I'm from a working class background myself, I can show you the council house I grew up on in googlemaps if you want. Such an utterly weak argument to make.

testaccount123

So whats this thread about? Why you feel less intimidated in a place that is actually more dangerous than Dublin? Why are we supposed to disregard actual crime when considering which is more intimidating?

testaccount123

testaccount123 wrote: »

Ive been to Barcelona twice, the first time a member of our group was stabbed, the second time someone was mugged. Dublin is much safer than Barcelona.

There seems to be a perception of Dublin as dangerous, seemingly due to some innate fear of working class people among some of Irelands population.

That's acutely silly, first off that sort of low level shouting/loud aggressive behaviour is not engaged in by working class people its engaged in by a cetin sort of urban youth and it seems to be largely an urban Irish/English issue. I experienced it in a chipper in Dublin last Saturday afternoon.

What it is often about is a sort of attack as a form of defence because they know very well most people are thinking 'scumbag' 'knack' 'scobie' or whatever when they seem them they know how they are prevised. so that sort of low level aggressive behaviour is a way addressing the power imbalance a way for a despised group to make themselves feel important.

testaccount123

I assume the OP speaks fluent French and Spanish and is up to speed with the cultural markers which point out working class youth in France and Spain, yeah? As someone who has spent time around the Arabic youth in Marseilles, I find the suggestion that southern European youth are not intimidating amusing.

testaccount123

testaccount123 wrote: »

I assume the OP speaks fluent French and Spanish and is up to speed with the cultural markers which point out working class youth in France and Spain, yeah? As someone who has spent time around the Arabic youth in Marseilles, I find the suggestion that southern European youth are not intimidating amusing.

But the police in both Spain and France can be aggressive in a way you never see here which does keep a lid on things.

testaccount123

There are entire areas in French cities which the police dont enter, such is the intimidation levels of the youth there. The idea of a few tracksuited twats on Middle Abbey St being more intimidating than places in northern Marseille is utterly laughable

MrWalsh

testaccount123 wrote: »

There are entire areas in French cities which the police dont enter, such is the intimidation levels of the youth there. The idea of a few tracksuited twats on Middle Abbey St being more intimidating than places in northern Marseille is utterly laughable

Well can you discuss it in a bit more detail please?

Are you talking about tourist areas? How do tourist areas in other countries compare in terms of casual scumbaggery (nothing to do with working class IMO)?

What about places like local supermarkets, which I find tend to attract plenty of scumbaggery in Ireland?

I think your point re cultural markers is interesting actually, I wouldn't recognise a Chinese scumbag but I do think I'd recognise a European one, maybe not though.

Can you elucidate why you think it's not so bad in Ireland compared to other perceptions on here?

TwoGallants

testaccount123 wrote: »

I assume the OP speaks fluent French and Spanish and is up to speed with the cultural markers which point out working class youth in France and Spain, yeah? As someone who has spent time around the Arabic youth in Marseilles, I find the suggestion that southern European youth are not intimidating amusing.

I haven't spent as much time in France as in Spain, (I speak good Spanish, dodgy French), and you are right that there are rough areas in some French cities. I found certain parts of Paris to be a little edgy all right (Haven't been to Marseilles)

In Spain though - the kids here might as well be a different species. I've never seen any gob****ery outside of the touristic spots were foreigners get mugged by (mostly) professional criminals.

littlevillage

I see a thread "The Death of courtesy"... well as a riposte to that heres my story.

I was in the Post office two days ago and while fumbling for money to pay for a stamp I accidentally dropped a roll of €50 notes on the ground. (3 x €50 to be precise, so €150 in total)

I carried on about by business, oblivious.. and went home etc.

I got a phone call yesterday advising me to go to the post office that I may have left something behind me there.

It transpired a young man somewhere behind me in the Q had picked up the money and brought it to the counter. The counter clerk didn't know who had dropped it and gave it to her manager who checked the CCTV and he was able to work out from the CCTV who had dropped it (me) and what counter I had gone to. He followed up with the clerk from that counter to see what business I had transacted .. (I had posted a letter) But the senders name (me) was not on the outside of it and An post are not legally allowed to open a stamped letter (only Customs are, I think)

The Post Office manager actually followed up on the name and address of the letter recipient and rang him and between them they narrowed it down to me, the letter recipient had my number and he was the one who rang me.

I have tried contacting the young man who handed the money in... but to no avail.

Either way it was an act of common decency and courtesy that has restored my faith somewhat. Fair play to the Post Office Manager too, he went above and beyond.

Pat Mustard

Mod:

Threads on same topic merged.

marmurr1916

TwoGallants wrote: »

And again I'm not saying anything about violent crime. People come here and treat Barcelona as a theme park, but the truth is it can be dangerous, people can be so naive and do things abroad they would never dream of doing in their own countries.

Using violence against someone shows a distinct lack of manners.

If the figures show that violent crimes against the person are less prevalent in Dublin than some other city, we have to conclude rightly that the other city is less mannerly than Dublin.

I've been robbed in Paris - I can assure you that the thug who threatened me with violence (he wanted my bottle of beer!) wasn't showing good manners.

I was not drunk or boisterous. I was sitting quietly on some steps enjoying the view and people watching, eating a roll and drinking one beer, my first of the day.

I'm not naive or lacking in street sense either and I wouldn't expect to be robbed in a touristy part of Dublin in broad daylight with thousands of other people milling about nearby so I didn't expect it to happen to me in Paris, especially given the fact that there are armed police patrolling most of the most important tourists sites in Paris.

I think that you're dismissing violent crime, especially that committed against tourists, because it doesn't fit with the conclusions you've already come to.

Given a choice would you prefer to be shouted at for a couple of minutes by some stupid kids or be threatened with having your head kicked in if you didn't hand over what the mugger wanted?

And which do you think is the greater breach of manners? Shouted insults or threats of violence or actual violence?

melissak

testaccount123 wrote: »

Ive been to Barcelona twice, the first time a member of our group was stabbed, the second time someone was mugged. Dublin is much safer than Barcelona.

There seems to be a perception of Dublin as dangerous, seemingly due to some innate fear of working class people among some of Irelands population.

That's unfortunate. I found Barcelona lovely and noticed nothing worse than any other city except pickpockets on la ramblas. I don't think dublin is that bad either. Any urban area where people are on top of each other and there is a big gap between haves and have nots will encounter social problems.

solo1y

I'm always suspicious about people or communities which display a lot of politeness or courtesy.

As unscientific as OP, but I have a strong feeling that someone's level of politeness is proportional to that person's level of repressed anger/judgement.