Medical bill for deceased family member

hairyslug

Hi,

Just a quick question, we received a letter threatening legal action this morning from the HSE if my mother (now deceased 4 months) did not pay for care that she received a number of months before her death.

There is no money available to pay this, will the hospital actually go through with this, they have not been to sympathetic to me with regards to this and say that this is standard practice.

223vmax

hairyslug wrote: »

Hi,

Just a quick question, we received a letter threatening legal action this morning from the HSE if my mother (now deceased 4 months) did not pay for care that she received a number of months before her death.

There is no money available to pay this, will the hospital actually go through with this, they have not been to sympathetic to me with regards to this and say that this is standard practice.

Who is executor/administrator of the estate? They would be responsible for calculating and settling any debt that would need resolving prior to sharing with family. If there are no assets to pay the debts then the administrator need to declare this to the HSE.

hairyslug

223vmax wrote: »

Who is executor/administrator of the estate? They would be responsible for calculating and settling any debt that would need resolving prior to sharing with family. If there are no assets to pay the debts then the administrator need to declare this to the HSE.

Cheers, that would be me, no assets where left to pay for anything, all was used up to pay for any costs that came up at the time.
Will get back onto them today

Wanderer78

op your story has both angered and bothered me deeply. firstly im very sorry for your loss. we had a very bad year in 2009 with family deaths. thankfully, really wrong choice of words, we were able to deal with any outstanding debts. this really is that last thing you need to be dealing with while enduring grief. im very sorry for this. theres some fundamental problems in this country at the moment and you're on the receiving end of that. im sorry but ive no practical advice for you with this problem but i wish you and your family the best of luck with solving it.

Del2005

Wanderer78 wrote: »

op your story has both angered and bothered me deeply. firstly im very sorry for your loss. we had a very bad year in 2009 with family deaths. thankfully, really wrong choice of words, we were able to deal with any outstanding debts. this really is that last thing you need to be dealing with while enduring grief. im very sorry for this. theres some fundamental problems in this country at the moment and you're on the receiving end of that. im sorry but ive no practical advice for you with this problem but i wish you and your family the best of luck with solving it.

What's wrong with a hospital sending out a bill for the services it provided? The fact the person has died doesn't remove the fact that there's a bill to be paid.

bellissima

If no money remains after the funeral costs that is the end of the matter.The family cannot be held liable.

MrWalsh

Del2005 wrote: »

What's wrong with a hospital sending out a bill for the services it provided? The fact the person has died doesn't remove the fact that there's a bill to be paid.

It does actually. If there is no money in the estate then there is nothing with which to pay the bill. The person who owed the bill is deceased. The hospital have to write it off as a bad debt.

bisounours

Objectively, the hospital is not in a position to know whether there are assets left to pay the bills. They are right to send out the bill, but a threatening letter is unacceptable. A simple reminder which you follow up with a Death Certificate and Proof of Financial Status (or lack thereof) should hopefully be sufficient for them to close the file.

bisounours

Just curious here - in France, there are rules on inheritance of assets. Spouse and children of the deceased automatically stand to inherit, but they can opt out through a notary. Reasons for opting out may be due to also inheriting the debt, if any. Does the same apply here in Ireland?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I'm sorry for your loss OP.

As executor it is your responsibility to settle any outstanding debt. If there are no funds to pay this debt, it is your duty to inform the creditor i.e. the hospital. Fyi, there is a priority order for payment to creditors, where the person dies insolvent.

You mentioned there is no money available. Will money become available through the sale of any assets such as a house, land, car etc? Are there any pension/life assurance payments due?

hullaballoo

I would imagine that the hospital's accounts department is operated by the same drones as most other accounts departments and the letter is effectively automated. It's a little bit insensitive but you can't always tailor your methods for recovering fees to people's sensitivities.

The bill was outstanding for x amount of time, therefore a letter issued. The threat aspect is due to the fact that very many people, especially those who didn't pay immediately when the first got the bill, just don't respond to "gentle reminders."

Debt collection agencies are a bloody bane but they are probably regarded as a necessary evil in a cash-stripped economy.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

OP, you need to clarify what the charges relate to. You don't say if the letter was demanding payment of the statutory in-patient charge for an acute hospital which is €75 per day up to a maximum of €750 per annum. People who are covered by the General Medical Services (GMS) are exempted persons for the statutory inpatient charge. The long-stay charge can be imposed on patients who are in acute hospitals for not less than 30 days in the previous 12 months. A person with an acute medical ailment that requires treatment is exempted from the long-stay inpatient charge. A maximum charge of up to €175 per week applies, where following a means assessment that allows for certain expenses, their weekly income is found to be in excess of €208 per week. If there was no money in the estate to pay the charges however, then the debt dies.

Wanderer78

Del2005 wrote: »

What's wrong with a hospital sending out a bill for the services it provided? The fact the person has died doesn't remove the fact that there's a bill to be paid.

im not going to derail another thread with this kinna stuff but id highly recommend people to check out the links below. the money to solve all these problems is actually there. our public services are not a business! i wish the op the best with solving this. im not gonna make anymore comments on this matter as its a sensitive area.

http://ellenbrown.com/
http://itsourmoney.podbean.com/
http://www.webofdebt.com/media/

hairyslug

The bill was for her stay, €750, there were no assets in her name and her savings were used to cover part of the funeral costs.

I have since been onto the hospital again and the HSE, who I have to say where quite helpful and believe that it should never have got to this stage.

The hospital has called off the debt collection agency and their accounts dept will look into it, I presume they will be requesting the cert and financial details.

Peregrinus

bisounours wrote: »

Just curious here - in France, there are rules on inheritance of assets. Spouse and children of the deceased automatically stand to inherit, but they can opt out through a notary. Reasons for opting out may be due to also inheriting the debt, if any. Does the same apply here in Ireland?

No. There is no circumstances in which you can inherit someone's personal debt. If I die owing a million euro to AIB, and my total assets are 50,000 euro, AIB will get 50,000 euro and will have to write off the rest. My next of kin will get nothing, but they won't owe any money to AIB. Consequently nobody ever has to disclaim an inheritance in order to avoid incurring a debt.

GerardKeating

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. There is no circumstances in which you can inherit someone's personal debt. If I die owing a million euro to AIB, and my total assets are 50,000 euro, AIB will get 50,000 euro and will have to write off the rest. My next of kin will get nothing, but they won't owe any money to AIB. Consequently nobody ever has to disclaim an inheritance in order to avoid incurring a debt.

While not exactly inheriting a debt, but a few cases in the past here,

• Person Dies
• Family Inherit
• Years Later, Revenue discover Tax evasion
• Revenue try to recover from the estate and claw back inheritance.

Peregrinus

GerardKeating wrote: »

While not exactly inheriting a debt, but a few cases in the past here,

• Person Dies
• Family Inherit
• Years Later, Revenue discover Tax evasion
• Revenue try to recover from the estate and claw back inheritance.

Well, yes, and that's not confined to Revenue debts. In general the next of kin are only entitled to what is left in the the deceased's estate after the deceased's debts and funeral expenses have been paid, as well as any expenses incurred in administering the estate. If the estate is distributed without paying any of these, then the people who should have been paid can come looking for the money.

But, as you point out, the next-of-kin haven't inherited the deceased's debts. They are just being asked to return property that should never have come to them in the first place. In the example I have earlier, if instead of paying the 50,000 euro in the estate to AIB the executor gives it to the next-of-kin, the next-of-kin may have to hand back the 50,000, but they are not liable for the deceased's debt of 1 million. It wouldn't be right to say that they have inherited the deceased's debt; all you can say is that they haven't inherited the 50,000 which they thought they had.

amen

In the example I have earlier, if instead of paying the 50,000 euro in the estate to AIB the executor gives it to the next-of-kin, the next-of-kin may have to hand back the 50,000, but they are not liable for the deceased's debt of 1 million. It wouldn't be right to say that they have inherited the deceased's debt; all you can say is that they haven't inherited the 50,000 which they thought they had.

In this example say I had the money on deposit at 10% per annum and I received 5,000 in interest.

I paid Tax on the interest.

Could AIB also take back the 5,000 ?

NUTLEY BOY

hairyslug wrote: »

The bill was for her stay, €750, there were no assets in her name and her savings were used to cover part of the funeral costs.

I have since been onto the hospital again and the HSE, who I have to say where quite helpful and believe that it should never have got to this stage.

The hospital has called off the debt collection agency and their accounts dept will look into it, I presume they will be requesting the cert and financial details.

Firstly, condolences on your loss. This kind of paperwork (the legal proceedings threat) can be quite upsetting where it is delivered sledge-hammer style at just the wrong moment.

If your mother held a medical card would that exempt her from the charge ?

Hospitals can be quick to flash out bills regardless. A pal of mine went to A & E by ambulance in 2012 accompanied by a letter of referral from his GP who actually rang the ambulance for him ! The letter was handed in to the medical staff at A & E but the administrators still sent him out the bill for attending the department. Once the error was pointed that was the end of it. Not the first time I have heard of this either.

conorh91

amen wrote: »

In this example say I had the money on deposit at 10% per annum and I received 5,000 in interest.

I paid Tax on the interest.

Could AIB also take back the 5,000 ?

Bear in mind Revenue charge an interest rate of about 10% per year for late payment on most tax heads. There are also penalties to consider.

Whatever is left after interest & penalties could be distributed though, I don't see a problem there.

Peregrinus

amen wrote: »

In this example say I had the money on deposit at 10% per annum and I received 5,000 in interest.

I paid Tax on the interest.

Could AIB also take back the 5,000 ?

Strictly speaking, yes. The argument would be that you were paid the money by mistake, and you have no claim to benefit from the period for which you held the money. And, equally, the money should have been paid to them, and they should have had the benefit of holding it for that period.

In practice I doubt if the question of interest on the money would be pursued. They'll be glad enough if they succeed in recovering the principal sum.

It should be pointed out that AIB's claim isn't against you, the recipient of the money. It's against the executors/administrators of the estate, who had a duty to pay the money to AIB rather than to you. The executors/administrators in turn have a claim against you.