Previous tenant paid bills!

potter18

I have recently moved out of an apartment after a years rent and had to cancel all the bills, pay them off and change the name back to the landlord in order to get my deposit back, however when I rang the gas network they said that there was no gas under my name, or my landlords name and wouldn't give me any more information. The landlord contacted them as he is the property owner and they gave him the name of the person who had been paying the bills for the last year, which was the previous tenant.
My landlord has now told me that I owe over 1000 euro for the full year of gas that the previous tenant had been paying for, even though I never knew he had and he had never cancelled his direct debit.

Where do I stand with this? Is it right for my landlord to keep my deposit and except the 300 more euro to pay to the previous tenant or should I contact the previous tenant myself to work something out?

cruizer101

Had you been receiving bills, whose name were they in?
How did you know how much to pay throughout the year?

Also seems very strange previous tenant was paying bills without noticing, where was the money you were paying through the year going?

wirelessdude01

Who did you think was paying for the gas that you were using?

Millem

Did you not realise you weren't paying gas all year?

Captain Flaps

Were you also paying the gas bill? If you didn't pay anything you probably are liable, if you had your own bills I'd be telling the landlord to take it up with the previous tenant who neglected to cancel his bill.

Saipanne

I think the landlord is chancing his arm here.

Lux23

I would ask the landlord to get the previous tenant to get in touch with you so they can provide evidence that the bills were paid by them and see what happens.

potter18

Hardly ever used the gas for the year as it only heated the kitchen but I half assumed it was all coming under the electricity bill and half just didn't think about it until I was moving out. I find it weird that the previous tenant didn't notice an almost 200 euro bill every 2 months for an apartment he no longer lived in, especially as my landlord will not release the deposit until I have full confirmation that I have cancelled and changed the names on all bills.

potter18

Am I actually liable to pay as there is no outstanding debt with the gas company or is this more of a moral situation in that I should pay the guy as I was the one living there, even though he didn't seem to notice all year?!

Saipanne

potter18 wrote: »

Am I actually liable to pay as there is no outstanding debt with the gas company or is this more of a moral situation in that I should pay the guy as I was the one living there, even though he didn't seem to notice all year?!

I'm no legal expert, but imagine this guy took you to court, you'd imagine the judge would award in his favour.

This is purely my opinion now.

Gatling

potter18 wrote: »

Am I actually liable to pay as there is no outstanding debt with the gas company or is this more of a moral situation in that I should pay the guy as I was the one living there, even though he didn't seem to notice all year?!

There's no moral situation you owe somebody that was paying your bill for you

potter18

Saipanne wrote: »

I'm no legal expert, but imagine this guy took you to court, you'd imagine the judge would award in his favour.

This is purely my opinion now.

Yes very true thanks.

Captain Flaps

tbh while it's totally your fault for not realising you had a gas service you weren't paying for, legally I'm not sure that the landlord can withhold your deposit here. It sounds like the previous tenant might have cause to chase you for the money (not sure that would hold up though) but the landlord probably shouldn't be getting involved.

Dardania

You could take the view that the gas bill isn't in your name, so you aren't involved

If you pay the landlord, what will he do with the money?

potter18

Yes I am worried that if I just let the landlord keep my deposit, there is no guarantee that the money will be passed on to the previous tenant, but at the same time i have no way in ensuring the landlord will return my deposit either.

potter18

Captain Flaps wrote: »

tbh while it's totally your fault for not realising you had a gas service you weren't paying for, legally I'm not sure that the landlord can withhold your deposit here. It sounds like the previous tenant might have cause to chase you for the money (not sure that would hold up though) but the landlord probably shouldn't be getting involved.

Yes it's my fault for not realising sooner, but I agree that perhaps it should be settled without the landlord being involved. The gas bill has been cancelled and returned to the landlords name now so there is no reason he shouldn't return my deposit I don't think.

godtabh

potter18 wrote: »

Hardly ever used the gas for the year as it only heated the kitchen but I half assumed it was all coming under the electricity bill and half just didn't think about it until I was moving out. I find it weird that the previous tenant didn't notice an almost 200 euro bill every 2 months for an apartment he no longer lived in, especially as my landlord will not release the deposit until I have full confirmation that I have cancelled and changed the names on all bills.

€200 every two months is more than handling using it. Our bill is €70 a month for a family of 4 in a 4 bed house where gas is used for heating and hot water.

godtabh

potter18 wrote: »

Yes it's my fault for not realising sooner, but I agree that perhaps it should be settled without the landlord being involved. The gas bill has been cancelled and returned to the landlords name now so there is no reason he shouldn't return my deposit I don't think.

Your gas bill isnt settled.

rawn

If the gas only heated the kitchen and you barely used it as you mentioned I find it hard to believe you were using 200e every 2 months, something seems fishy here... Are you sure the gas only heated the kitchen? Did you have a gas cooker? Can the previous tenant contact the gas company and ask them to send a record of bills paid for the year? I would also ask to see some proof the the old tenant paid the bills, like a redacted bank statement showing the money being paid.

Saipanne

I think the landlord is pulling a fast one here. The ideal scenario is you getting your deposit back and this guy getting the bill money back. But no way the landlord should be taking money here.

potter18

godtabh wrote: »

€200 every two months is more than handling using it. Our bill is €70 a month for a family of 4 in a 4 bed house where gas is used for heating and hot water.

My landlord told me that the amount paid over the last 12 months is 1100euro which would mean about 90 a month. Shower was electric and heating literally just heated the kitchen, and as i didn't spend a huge amount of time in the apartment and am a student, it was a rare occasion that I even turned the gas heater on, so can't understand how it would cost more than what you are paying if it was mainly just the standing charge and VAT!

Michael D Not Higgins

If you were barely using it, how did it amount to so much? I use gas for cooking, central heating and hot water and it doesn't amount to that much.

potter18

rawn wrote: »

If the gas only heated the kitchen and you barely used it as you mentioned I find it hard to believe you were using 200e every 2 months, something seems fishy here... Are you sure the gas only heated the kitchen? Did you have a gas cooker? Can the previous tenant contact the gas company and ask them to send a record of bills paid for the year? I would also ask to see some proof the the old tenant paid the bills, like a redacted bank statement showing the money being paid.

There was only one radiator in the entire apartment so I had an electric heater in the bedroom, cooker was also electric.

Yes i'm starting to think perhaps the amount i have been told could be what this previous guy has paid over the two years rather than just the year I was there?

Michael D Not Higgins

potter18 wrote: »

There was only one radiator in the entire apartment so I had an electric heater in the bedroom, cooker was also electric.

Yes i'm starting to think perhaps the amount i have been told could be what this previous guy has paid over the two years rather than just the year I was there?

Tell the landlord to pass on your details to the other guy and let you sort it out yourself. Then you can get actual bills from him for the gas used.

FishOnABike

potter18 wrote: »

landlord will not release the deposit until I have full confirmation that I have cancelled and changed the names on all bills.

If this is the landlord's policy how would the previous tenant not have canceled and changed the names on all bills.

If the previous tenant has being paying for your gas use that is between you and the previous tenant. The landlord should not be withholding your deposit over a possible financial matter between you and the previous tenant.

If the previous tenant can prove they have paid (not just been billed) for your gas use over the last year you should deal with the previous tenant and pay for the gas you have used. What you should pay may not necessarily be what the previous tenant paid if for example they were subscribed to a high usage tariff which you would not not have subscribed to with your usage.

potter18

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Tell the landlord to pass on your details to the other guy and let you sort it out yourself. Then you can get actual bills from him for the gas used.

Spoke to the landlord again and he said that previous tenant is not happy for my landlord to give back the deposit until I have paid the gas bill, and therefore he is saying he is keeping it until this is all sorted.

I am happy to sort it our between myself and the old tenant as I did obviously use the gas over the year but the landlord definitely has no legal right to keep my deposit or to remain involved.

Michael D Not Higgins

FishOnABike wrote: »

If this is the landlord's policy how would the previous tenant not have canceled and changed the names on all bills.

If the previous tenant has being paying for your gas use that is between you and the previous tenant. The landlord should not be withholding your deposit over a possible financial matter between you and the previous tenant.

If the previous tenant can prove they have paid (not just been billed) for your gas use over the last year you should deal with the previous tenant and pay for the gas you have used. What you should pay may not necessarily be what the previous tenant paid if for example they were subscribed to a high usage tariff which you would not not have subscribed to with your usage.

It could also be estimated bills based on the previous tenant's usage.

Jan Laco

It's nothing to do with your landlord. don't give him a cent as he probably wouldn't send the money on. It's A deal between. you the provider and past tenant.

potter18

FishOnABike wrote: »

If this is the landlord's policy how would the previous tenant not have canceled and changed the names on all bills.

If the previous tenant has being paying for your gas use that is between you and the previous tenant. The landlord should not be withholding your deposit over a possible financial matter between you and the previous tenant.

If the previous tenant can prove they have paid (not just been billed) for your gas use over the last year you should deal with the previous tenant and pay for the gas you have used. What you should pay may not necessarily be what the previous tenant paid if for example they were subscribed to a high usage tariff which you would not not have subscribed to with your usage.

Yes, that is what I cannot understand, how did the last guy manage to get a deposit back without confirmation that he had cancelled the bills. I agree it should be solved between me and the previous tenant but I am struggling to get the deposit back off the landlord.

potter18

Jan Laco wrote: »

It's nothing to do with your landlord. don't give him a cent as he probably wouldn't send the money on. It's A deal between. you the provider and past tenant.

Can't do a lot at the moment as I have no name or contact details of the previous tenant and also no proof of the amount that was paid ie copies of previous bills so there is just a number that I have been given by the landlord which for all I know could be much more than it should be.

tina1040

Did you not wonder why you weren't receiving any bills after you had the bill put in your name?

If the previous tenant isn't good at looking after his finances it's quite possible he didn't notice 6 payments out of his account over the year. Do you think you don't owe the money?

Do you think the landlord should pick up the bill when that guy eventually cops on?

FishOnABike

potter18 wrote: »

Spoke to the landlord again and he said that previous tenant is not happy for my landlord to give back the deposit until I have paid the gas bill, and therefore he is saying he is keeping it until this is all sorted.

I am happy to sort it our between myself and the old tenant as I did obviously use the gas over the year but the landlord definitely has no legal right to keep my deposit or to remain involved.

If the landlord continues to refuse to return your deposit for no other reason other than the gas (which is between you and the former tenant) inform the landlord you he is putting you in a position where you will have no option but to raise a dispute through the PRTB for withholding the deposit and you will be looking for the return of the deposit in full and significant damages for his unlawful action.

Gatling

FishOnABike wrote: »

If the landlord continues to refuse to return your deposit for no other reason other than the gas (which is between you and the former tenant) inform the landlord you he is putting you in a position where you will have no option but to raise a dispute through the PRTB for withholding the deposit and you will be looking for the return of the deposit in full and significant damages for his unlawful action.

5 + years down the line depending on the situation

Dardania

FishOnABike wrote: »

If the landlord continues to refuse to return your deposit for no other reason other than the gas (which is between you and the former tenant) inform the landlord you he is putting you in a position where you will have no option but to raise a dispute through the PRTB for withholding the deposit and you will be looking for the return of the deposit in full and significant damages for his unlawful action.

CHances are the lease you signed with landlord made it clear you were responsible for all utility bills - remind him of same

Captain Flaps

So I think we're all in agreement that you owe the money to the previous tenant. If the landlord's only concern is ensuring the tenant gets paid, he should be happy to pass on the previous tenant's contact info so you can request copies of all bills etc etc. If the landlord wants to hold on to your deposit until such a time as all parties are satisfied that the bills have been cleared, he may be entitled to do that, but under no circumstances should you be allowing ANY cash to be moved around without seeing bills.

FishOnABike

Gatling wrote: »

5 + years down the line depending on the situation

I know the processing time for complaints by the PRTB is beyond a joke but the suggestion might make the landlord reconsider whether the trouble is worth his while getting involved in a dispute between two third parties.

tina1040

potter18 wrote: »

Can't do a lot at the moment as I have no name or contact details of the previous tenant and also no proof of the amount that was paid ie copies of previous bills so there is just a number that I have been given by the landlord which for all I know could be much more than it should be.

It's nothing to do with the landlord. He has no liability to the gas company once the account is signed over to a tenant.

Neither should you be dealing with the previous tenant. You should tell the gas co that you have been a tenant at that address, give the meter reading at the start and end of the tenancy and the gas co should rectify the situation with the previous tenant.

For a speedier solution, it would help if the landlord informed the previous tenant of the error and ask him to explain to the gas co and request a refund.

FishOnABike

potter18 wrote: »

Can't do a lot at the moment as I have no name or contact details of the previous tenant and also no proof of the amount that was paid ie copies of previous bills so there is just a number that I have been given by the landlord which for all I know could be much more than it should be.

Were gas meter readings taken at the start and end of your tenancy and do you have these noted somewhere? If not it is going to be all but impossible to establish what your actual usage has been unless the bills (which you have yet to see) contained actual meter readings.

As Michael D said they could be estimated. They could be on a flat rate or a high standing charge / low cost per unit or other tariff which would not have been appropriate for your usage pattern.

The landlord should not be getting involved other than facilitating you and the previous tenant to contact each other. You should insist on only dealing with the previous tenant and require proof from the previous tenant that they have been billed for and paid for your gas usage.

Make any payment(s) by credit transfer from your bank account to the previous tenant's bank account to ensure they are traceable and only for what you would have paid - not necessarily what the previous tenant paid if they were on an inappropriate tariff.

JohnBee

Captain Flaps wrote: »

If the landlord's only concern is ensuring the tenant gets paid, he should be happy to pass on the previous tenant's contact info so you can request copies of all bills etc etc.

OP did state that other tenant did not want his details shared.

There are 2 possiblities:
1. OP is extremely naive and upon moving into a new place, subconsciously assumed the gas fairies provided the service.
2. OP was slightly chancing their arm and sticking their head in the sand and hoping a bill would never be paid.

Bottom line is, your an adult, you used it, you pay it. Ask landlord for copy of bill. Pay your dues, either to landlord (with express written permission from previous tenant to pay this way), or cheque to previous tenant (perhaps passed on by landlord).

Everyone is complicating this too much with PRTB etc.

K.Flyer

I cannot see the legal reason for the L.L. retaining your deposit as technically there are no arrears on the utility bills.
However, you do owe for your usage.
I would be suggesting to him that you need to sort this out with the previous tenant and that you will gladly refund the tenant directly any monies owed, subject to verification of the bills from the energy supplier.
He may withhold your deposit until the matter is resolved, which is understandable, but one way or the other you owe the bill and he owes you your deposit.

rawn

I wouldn't pay anything without seeing the annual bill showing that it has been paid by the previous tenant. Shouldn't be a problem to get one from the gas company. If everything is above board, OP pays. Simples.

FishOnABike

JohnBee wrote: »

OP did state that other tenant did not want his details shared.

I've reread the thread and I don't see the OP saying anywhere that the previous tenant did not want his details shared.

If the previous tenant (I'm starting to doubt the LL's story) wants to be repaid for the OP's gas usage he will have to make his details known to the OP to prove he was billed for and paid for the gas the OP used. He will also have to provide his details so the OP can arrange payment.

JohnBee wrote: »

Everyone is complicating this too much with PRTB etc.

The landlord is creating a second problem by unlawfully withholding the OP's deposit. The OP is entitled to take whatever lawful action is needed to discourage the landlord or recover their deposit.

dissed doc

Get the meter reading from the beginning of your tenancy and the end. It will be simple to get Board Gais or whoever to provide the usage cost.

Get copies of all the bills to your address for the period of your tenancy.

Tell the landlord that you have transferred all bills that were in your name to his. Bills not in your name, you are not able to transfer.

If the deposit is kept, lodge a PTRB dispute,

??

The biggest issue I see here is the amount being asked for. If the OP is correct in what he is saying and hardy ever uses the gas then the bill for the year should be fairly small.

I'm in a 3 bdrm house, 3 of us living there and we are very light users our cost for the year is around 200 euro. Our bill for the last 2 months (well a bit more actually) was 18 euro.

El_Duderino 09

potter18 wrote:

Yes i'm starting to think perhaps the amount i have been told could be what this previous guy has paid over the two years rather than just the year I was there?

Has anyone shown you a bill? Only a crazy person would consider paying a bill which they haven't even seen.

For that matter how was the bill worked out? If it was on DD with a fixed amount for the old tenant's usage, the account could be in credit. The owner of the account needs to get a meter reading and a breakdown of the bill and you need to see it before you consider paying anyone anything.

foggy_lad

OP you should contact the PRTB tomorrow to initiate a complaint based on what the LL has told you about keeping your deposit, Then you should contact the LL and tell him to provide a full breakdown of the previous years bills including copies of the bills themselves and also details of the previous tenant so that you can seek to reimburse them for their payment of your bill.


Personally I think that the bill is in the Landlords name and is most likely only a tiny fraction of what he is trying to make you pay. he has decided to keep your deposit any way he can!

jlm29

OP, I don't see where it says the previous tenant doesn't want his details shared, but you could write a letter and ask the landlord to pass it in to that person, requesting that they contact you. Make it clear that you have no issue paying what you owe, but that you'd like to see a copy of the bills.
Can't imagine anyone would think it unreasonable, and you'll be able to tell the prtb you've done this, if you do need to bring the matter to them!

ted1

Dardania wrote: »

You could take the view that the gas bill isn't in your name, so you aren't involved

If you pay the landlord, what will he do with the money?

The lease will stipulate that the tenant is responsible for all utility bills while in tenancy .

Starokan

My take on it would be that the landlord has zero right to hold back your deposit. If you feel no moral obligation to pay the bill then if you cannot get the deposit pursue it through the PRTB

If you feel obliged to pay then insist on the gas company sending out all bills to your landlord and insist on seeing them, they could be estimates etc , it seems way to high for a year. Establish exactly what is owed and go from there.

Alex Meier

None of the landlords business who pays the bills.

tina1040

Does the previous tenant know they haven't stopped the payments? How did the landlord discover this was happening?

I think you should be working this out through the gas supplier and not by reimbursing the previous tenant.