Definitive, legal definition of "commuting"?

sunnysoutheast

Hi all

Can anyone point me to a watertight legal definition of "commuting" as it pertains to motor insurance in Ireland?

My specific interest is whether I would need business use to travel to/from a single client site for the duration of a (minimum) six monthly contract engagement. As Revenue define such a location as a "normal place of work" - which precludes any mileage or subsistence payments - I want to know whether this is covered by commuting. I would not visit multiple sites, carry goods/samples or have unannounced sales visits etc. It would purely be home->work car park->home journeys.

Previously I have always included business use but it is getting very expensive now. Of course it will be even more expensive if it turns out I needed it but didn't buy it.

I plan to contact my insurers tomorrow to get an answer but any insight beforehand is welcome. Thanks!

Seth Brundle

I've no idea but it wouldn't matter anyhow what the legal definition is because only their definition matters when it comes to their policies!

sunnysoutheast

kbannon wrote: »

I've no idea but it wouldn't matter anyhow what the legal definition is because only their definition matters when it comes to their policies!

Yes I know, it's maddening that it isn't consistently defined. I've seen it as "permanent place of work", "single place of work", "work", ....

redlead

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Yes I know, it's maddening that it isn't consistently defined. I've seen it as "permanent place of work", "single place of work", "work", ....

I've often wondered this too. I travel about six miles return to work every day. Is that commuting or do you have to be doing a much bigger distance? That's just normal driving as far as I'm concerned. Why should I be expected to pay more just because it's work I'm going to. I always think of commuting as someone driving from say Navan into Dublin or something like that

blackbox

Not a legal definition, but I understand that commuting is travel between your home and your normal workplace.

Travel from your workplace to a client's business/home wouldn't be commuting.

On the plus side, you can claim the expense of traveling to a client against your taxes - you can't do this for a commute.

deandean

Increase from SDP only to Class 1 business use was only 20 euro per anum for me.

unkel

Your normal place of work is your office. Even if you rarely work there. If you have to drive to a client (as in your case) you do need business use on your insurance.

dudara

As unkel said. Because I rarely work in my home office (in the middle of town), I need to have Class I indemnity for my employer. It's usually given for free.

Stheno

unkel wrote: »

Your normal place of work is your office. Even if you rarely work there. If you have to drive to a client (as in your case) you do need business use on your insurance.

I asked my insurance about this as I am classed as a mobile worker. They have the view that driving from home to any place of work and back, is not business use, so if I have to drive from Dublin to Cork to work there for a few days, that's fine.

However driving from home to office a, then from office a to office b, is business use. So if I drive to the office, then to Cork, that's different

It's a mire depending on which insurance company you talk to.

sunnysoutheast

In case anyone is interested I received a written reply that travel "to/from the workplace" is covered as commuting under my SD&P policy.

I had specified that my "normal place of work" as a limited company contractor is the client site as defined by Revenue and I do not claim mileage for any "business journeys".

In practice I think we will add class 1 business use to one of our cars on next renewal to cover for presales etc. visits and just use that car when needed.

I don't know if this is universal, so best to check if you are in the same situation.

MugMugs

From the insurance faq
What are the different Insurance Classes?

There are four main types.

Class 1a Social Domestic and Pleasure - This is normal vehicle use and includes commuting to and from work your normal place of work.

Class 1b Includes use for business by the Policyholder. This would cover use by the insured in connection with their profession and travelling to different locations but excludes commercial travelling and the transit of commercial goods.

Class 2 Includes carriage of commercial goods and samples in connection with the insureds employment. Ideal for a small business but excludes commercial travelling

Class 3 covers Commercial travelling. Ideal for the likes of a Rep etc...

sunnysoutheast

MugMugs wrote: »

From the insurance faq
What are the different Insurance Classes?

There are four main types.

Class 1a Social Domestic and Pleasure - This is normal vehicle use and includes commuting to and from work your normal place of work.

Class 1b Includes use for business by the Policyholder. This would cover use by the insured in connection with their profession and travelling to different locations but excludes commercial travelling and the transit of commercial goods.

Class 2 Includes carriage of commercial goods and samples in connection with the insureds employment. Ideal for a small business but excludes commercial travelling

Class 3 covers Commercial travelling. Ideal for the likes of a Rep etc...

Yes, I have seen (multiple variations) of those definitions.

The reason I wanted a clarification because "normal place of work" is not defined anywhere or standard. As I said before I have seen "place of work", "permanent place of work", "...to work", etc. etc.

If I own the "business" but the "place of work" is the client site do I need class 1a or 1b?

It seems to vary between insurers.

Seth Brundle

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

It seems to vary between insurers.

They make the rules!

MugMugs

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Yes, I have seen (multiple variations) of those definitions.

The reason I wanted a clarification because "normal place of work" is not defined anywhere or standard. As I said before I have seen "place of work", "permanent place of work", "...to work", etc. etc.

If I own the "business" but the "place of work" is the client site do I need class 1a or 1b?

It seems to vary between insurers.

You declare your occupation as x. If your role means you'll be on clients sites for durations of time and work from their sites then I'd gear towards 1a. If you're potentially visiting multiple sites daily, I'd veer to 1b

Stheno

MugMugs wrote: »

You declare your occupation as x. If your role means you'll be on clients sites for durations of time and work from their sites then I'd gear towards 1a. If you're potentially visiting multiple sites daily, I'd veer to 1b

That's how my insurance works, they know I travel to e.g. Belfast on a Monday and am down in e.g. Cork on a Tuesday but class it as travel to and from work.

Once I get somewhere the only place I am going is home

unkel

Stheno wrote: »

However driving from home to office a, then from office a to office b, is business use.

I feel you are not defining office correctly. I'm pretty sure office in insurance terms is the premises of the company you work for. If you go to work somewhere on site with a customer of the company you work for, you need 1b insurance

Stheno

unkel wrote: »

I feel you are not defining office correctly. I'm pretty sure office in insurance terms is the premises of the company you work for. If you go to work somewhere on site with a customer of the company you work for, you need 1b insurance

Not according to my insurance (Axa) they include limited business use in their 1a policies

I checked it with them as I had to call out I travel a lot sometimes with work, it was under 20kmiles a year which may have influenced what they said

jimgoose

unkel wrote: »

I feel you are not defining office correctly. I'm pretty sure office in insurance terms is the premises of the company you work for. If you go to work somewhere on site with a customer of the company you work for, you need 1b insurance

I have a home office, which I sometimes use on the same days as the Office office. I mentioned that to AXA last year and they made my head explode with their Insurance Death-Ray Phone App. Be careful out there...

keithclancy

For me (Germany)

Travelling to Work - Office to Office is on works Insurance.

Most direct route home is covered.

All of the time during working hours is covered.

sunnysoutheast

jimgoose wrote: »

I have a home office, which I sometimes use on the same days as the Office office. I mentioned that to AXA last year and they made my head explode with their Insurance Death-Ray Phone App. Be careful out there...

Revenue are very strict these days on defining a "home office" as a normal place of work from the point of view of claiming mileage and subsistence for business journeys. They have been targeting limited company contractors over the last couple of years (or, more specifically, their accountants).

I look forward to their equally strict crackdown on the cute hoor gards and teachers and their below-the-radar rental portfolio "pensions". I expect I will be waiting a while.

Stheno

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Revenue are very strict these days on defining a "home office" as a normal place of work from the point of view of claiming mileage and subsistence for business journeys. They have been targeting limited company contractors over the last couple of years (or, more specifically, their accountants).

I look forward to their equally strict crackdown on the cute hoor gards and teachers and their below-the-radar rental portfolio "pensions". I expect I will be waiting a while.

They have recently severely restricted when subsistence can be claimed if it's relevant to you

sunnysoutheast

Stheno wrote: »

They have recently severely restricted when subsistence can be claimed if it's relevant to you

Oh I am well aware of that! I started up a new company last year and it was pretty much the first thing my accountant said to me.

This was basically the root of my original query. The "normal place of work" is now defined by Revenue as the client's site for the duration of the contract. If this is a single location, and the only travel is from home and back, is this classed as commuting, even though I do not work directly for the client in question.

Stheno

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Oh I am well aware of that! I started up a new company last year and it was pretty much the first thing my accountant said to me.

This was basically the root of my original query. The "normal place of work" is now defined by Revenue as the client's site for the duration of the contract. If this is a single location, and the only travel is from home and back, is this classed as commuting, even though I do not work directly for the client in question.

No the rules on subsistence were changed again on July 1st this year.

That definition you have above would mean your client site is your normal place of work so your drive there and back is commuting imo

I've been in my normal place of work one day since February

sunnysoutheast

Stheno wrote: »

No the rules on subsistence were changed again on July 1st this year.

That definition you have above would mean your client site is your normal place of work so your drive there and back is commuting imo

I've been in my normal place of work one day since February

Yes I agree, I now have it in writing from the insurer too.

I haven't claimed any mileage or subsistence etc. for my contract work. One corollary is that it simply isn't worth taking city centre contracts if you can't expense anything. That is a discussion for another forum though!

To Elland Back

Commuting is driving to or from a person's USUAL place of work. Doesn't include customer visits. Very hard to interpret or enforce

sunnysoutheast

To Elland Back wrote: »

Commuting is driving to or from a person's USUAL place of work. Doesn't include customer visits. Very hard to interpret or enforce

You're not joking. The agents you talk to on the phone are often confused too, which is why I wanted it in writing. It may not actually be a legally correct interpretation, but (should the worst happen) there is no way my insurer can argue I didn't do my utmost to clarify it with them.

Admittedly for most people in permanent jobs the issue is fairly clear-cut.