Embryonic deaths in the herd.

Deepsouthwest

Have had a run of embryonic deaths here for the last 5/6 wks, at this stage its 11 or 12 out of 150 cows, 2 over the wkend and I'm absolutely disgusted. Had a similar run last yr, and put it down to ibr, but cows have received their vaccine on the 1st of July, previous one was 1st of feb, so they should've been well covered. Took blood mineral level samples last, and they seemed fine, also in the Munster herd health plan with bulk milk samples taken, but nothing showing up there either.
Had an issue with salmonella last November causing more abortions, but all vaccinated for that as well.
Must take action now, but not sure where to start. Traditionally I've had excellent fertility here, but it's slipping big time now.
Cows are in good condition, and have probably never had as much grass, yield is disappointing though at around 18l, but a lot of rain over the last few wks probably affecting that.
Of course people will say there's an underlying problem here that's hard to find. But I must find it, can't watch this happening again nxt yr.
Any help, advice, solutions would be greatly appreciated.

Milked out

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Have had a run of embryonic deaths here for the last 5/6 wks, at this stage its 11 or 12 out of 150 cows, 2 over the wkend and I'm absolutely disgusted. Had a similar run last yr, and put it down to ibr, but cows have received their vaccine on the 1st of July, previous one was 1st of feb, so they should've been well covered. Took blood mineral level samples last, and they seemed fine, also in the Munster herd health plan with bulk milk samples taken, but nothing showing up there either.
Had an issue with salmonella last November causing more abortions, but all vaccinated for that as well.
Must take action now, but not sure where to start. Traditionally I've had excellent fertility here, but it's slipping big time now.
Cows are in good condition, and have probably never had as much grass, yield is disappointing though at around 18l, but a lot of rain over the last few wks probably affecting that.
Of course people will say there's an underlying problem here that's hard to find. But I must find it, can't watch this happening again nxt yr.
Any help, advice, solutions would be greatly appreciated.

Do u test for urea in milk in carbery? Or do u ever test the crude protein of grass during breeding season? Advisor here is big against having too much N in grass on basis it'll cause embryonic losses. Claims to have testing grass with cp levels up to 30%. Also one of his clients had autumn herd scanned in calf and 12 % of those ended up losing pregnancies during early grazing season. Like u seemed covered for everything so put it down to the blanket spreading before turnout and first rounds. Now this is circumstantial as opposed to definitive. You assume if this was the case it would be a more widespread belief so I dunno really myself on that one

Deepsouthwest

Milked out wrote: »

Do u test for urea in milk in carbery? Or do u ever test the crude protein of grass during breeding season? Advisor here is big against having too much N in grass on basis it'll cause embryonic losses. Claims to have testing grass with cp levels up to 30%. Also one of his clients had autumn herd scanned in calf and 12 % of those ended up losing pregnancies during early grazing season. Like u seemed covered for everything so put it down to the blanket spreading before turnout and first rounds. Now this is circumstantial as opposed to definitive. You assume if this was the case it would be a more widespread belief so I dunno really myself on that one

Not milk testing for urea. Advisor here is adamant that high N does not affect fertility. Apparently Teagasc did trials on v high levels of N, nearly poisoning the cows he said and still no effect on fertility

mahoney_j

I'd go along with milked out re high milk urea and high n in grass,another question do u spread much sulphur .high milk urea and high s usage are both big causes of early embryonic loss according to my vet if Ibr ,bvd status etc are ok .

patsy_mccabe

Have you tested for Neospora? Maybe a stupid question but, have you seen the aborted foetuses? Maybe they weren't in calf all along.

RightTurnClyde

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Have had a run of embryonic deaths here for the last 5/6 wks, at this stage its 11 or 12 out of 150 cows, 2 over the wkend and I'm absolutely disgusted. Had a similar run last yr, and put it down to ibr, but cows have received their vaccine on the 1st of July, previous one was 1st of feb, so they should've been well covered. Took blood mineral level samples last, and they seemed fine, also in the Munster herd health plan with bulk milk samples taken, but nothing showing up there either.
Had an issue with salmonella last November causing more abortions, but all vaccinated for that as well.
Must take action now, but not sure where to start. Traditionally I've had excellent fertility here, but it's slipping big time now.
Cows are in good condition, and have probably never had as much grass, yield is disappointing though at around 18l, but a lot of rain over the last few wks probably affecting that.
Of course people will say there's an underlying problem here that's hard to find. But I must find it, can't watch this happening again nxt yr.
Any help, advice, solutions would be greatly appreciated.

I'd do 2 bloods on the problem cows, a full disease one and a full minerals and vitamins one. And do individual milk sample tests on them aswell.
Belts and braces job. Get as much info as soon as possible. Other than that it's guessing.
(Our coop doesn't do urea sampling either, and I'm constantly pushing for it. I get the same crap about urea not affecting fert and how the even the embryos were injected with urea and it didn't do any harm. Urea testing isn't expensive or hard, yet they won't bother their bollo. )

whelan2

What about lepto?

frogloch

Touch wood I'm having the best season for cows going incalf and staying in calf. I vaccinate for lepto and use the twice yearly live vaccine for ibr. I've eased off on N fertiliser this year as have too much grass, although back spreading after each grazing again. But urea levels in milk are low this year, last test was 9. Cows are in very good condition and feed 4kgs 14% meal.

Deepsouthwest

mahoney_j wrote: »

I'd go along with milked out re high milk urea and high n in grass,another question do u spread much sulphur .high milk urea and high s usage are both big causes of early embryonic loss according to my vet if Ibr ,bvd status etc are ok .

Yes, have a spread a nice bit of sulphur, and lime over the last few yrs. I remember u or Stan mentioning something about this before, could u expand on it if possible.

Deepsouthwest

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Have you tested for Neospora? Maybe a stupid question but, have you seen the aborted foetuses? Maybe they weren't in calf all along.

Monitoring neospora in milk samples for the last few yrs, and it is there but not at a level that should alarm me. Not a stupid question at all, the reason I'm classifying these as embryonic deaths is all of these cows were AI'd in the first 3 wks of May, and have only resurfaced now, bulls have in for 4/5 wks now and these cows showed nothing until now. A 6 wk repeat I would often put down to missed heats, but not this.

Deepsouthwest

whelan2 wrote: »

What about lepto?

Done for lepto

Deepsouthwest

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

I'd do 2 bloods on the problem cows, a full disease one and a full minerals and vitamins one. And do individual milk sample tests on them aswell.
Belts and braces job. Get as much info as soon as possible. Other than that it's guessing.
(Our coop doesn't do urea sampling either, and I'm constantly pushing for it. I get the same crap about urea not affecting fert and how the even the embryos were injected with urea and it didn't do any harm. Urea testing isn't expensive or hard, yet they won't bother their bollo. )

Will probably go down this route alright, might even take a few dung samples as well. Have to try and find the source at this stage.

mahoney_j

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Yes, have a spread a nice bit of sulphur, and lime over the last few yrs. I remember u or Stan mentioning something about this before, could u expand on it if possible.

I use sulphur here but not asn on grazing ground for millkers or maidens .silage ground is topped up with one bag though.15/20 units from early April to early June is what's advised for me by vet etc .it is spread over a number of rounds in the form of nitro sulphur 27%n 5 %s .too much s locks up copper and CAN lead to early embryonic death hence why I won't use asn on grazing block .look frazz I know horses out asn on his milk block with little effect so that's throws my theory .
Anyway here fertility is pretty good and I put it down to
1 good cow condition
2 good grass
3 vaccinate for lepto,salmonella,Ibr and bvd
4 bolus pre breeding
5 iodine in water daily through calving and breeding
6 closed herd bar bull ,he is fully screened and fert tested before going near cows
7 good records and acting on cows that had hard calving set.

Brown Podzol

Is the clue in the disappointing yield? What's protein like? How much meal are you feeding? Yield dropped 3ltrs and protein from 3.65 to 3.5 here two weeks ago. I upped meal from 2.7 to 4 last week and yield up 2ltrs and protein up to 3.6. Would low energy intake result in embryo loss?. I don't know.

blue5000

I'd be inclined to agree with mahony and milked out, urea is first thing that came to my mind anyway. Are you blanket spreading or doing two or three paddocks after they graze. Try recording all the dates you spread N and dates the cows who lost embryos were served. Spreadsheet on excel might help. If you spread nitrogen and it was dry afterwards for a week or more there could be luxury uptake.

It's a hard one especially after spending a small fortune on vaccines.

stanflt

National avg embyotic loss is 7%

Are you spreading sulphar


Have you done a mineral sample of the soil


High molibdomine and use of sulphar will destroy fertility

Dawggone

Milk urea is a good indicator of where you are as regards blood nitrogen levels.

In areas of high molybdenum, coupled with high ph, nitrogen and sulphur use need extra vigilance.

Deepsouthwest

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Is the clue in the disappointing yield? What's protein like? How much meal are you feeding? Yield dropped 3ltrs and protein from 3.65 to 3.5 here two weeks ago. I upped meal from 2.7 to 4 last week and yield up 2ltrs and protein up to 3.6. Would low energy intake result in embryo loss?. I don't know.

Low yield I would think linked to low DM grass, only feeding 1 kg all through, would def have paid in hindsight to increase meal and slow the drop in yield. Surely that shouldn't be enough for cows to lose embryos, I'd hope they're more durable than that.

Deepsouthwest

stanflt wrote: »

National avg embyotic loss is 7%

Are you spreading sulphar


Have you done a mineral sample of the soil


High molibdomine and use of sulphar will destroy fertility

Soil sample reasonably regularly here, but only for p, k, ph etc. Have never done mineral analysis of soil. Have spread a lot of sulphur in the last two yrs, and not so much before that, and it's only in the last two yrs this embryonic death has become an issue. Sounds v suspicious, but my advisor is having none of it.

Deepsouthwest

Dawggone wrote: »

Milk urea is a good indicator of where you are as regards blood nitrogen levels.

In areas of high molybdenum, coupled with high ph, nitrogen and sulphur use need extra vigilance.

No milk urea tests here. Would I be right in saying that this problem happened a month or so ago, and that's why these cows are only back cycling now?

stretch film

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Soil sample reasonably regularly here, but only for p, k, ph etc. Have never done mineral analysis of soil. Have spread a lot of sulphur in the last two yrs, and not so much before that, and it's only in the last two yrs this embryonic death has become an issue. Sounds v suspicious, but my advisor is having none of it.

Sample the herbage going into cow and the milk coming out. Blood is prob most relevant .

Dawggone

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

No milk urea tests here. Would I be right in saying that this problem happened a month or so ago, and that's why these cows are only back cycling now?

I would think so.
Had the same problem here a few years back. Cows scanned in calf at 35 to 45 days back cycling. Cut back on the protein and no more problems.
It can be hard with grass to keep milk urea at optimal levels.

I've said it before, I live by the milk urea test especially on grass. I hardly glance at them when not on grass as I know what they'll be.

The man in red and black

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Low yield I would think linked to low DM grass, only feeding 1 kg all through, would def have paid in hindsight to increase meal and slow the drop in yield. Surely that shouldn't be enough for cows to lose embryos, I'd hope they're more durable than that.

Any sudden changes in feed quality can affect energy levels in cows. A cow in negative energy balance is always susceptible to early embryonic death. Negative energy balance leads to ketosis. You could blood a few groups of cows to see what their energy profiles are like. I normally sample a handful each of dry cows, cows just calved, cows mid and late lactation. One caution on the bloods is they may be 100% normal at this point if you suspect the issue was a month ago. Also if you are seasonal calving as I suspect you obviously won't have as many different groups of cows to sample from. You know yourself what a fine tuned machine dairy cows are now. It only takes small things to throw them off. Hope you get it figured out.