immersion fuse keeps blowing

timmer3

hi,
the previous owners of our house left the immersion on 24/7 and i appreciate this is not very energy efficient but it meant they could have baths/showers for all the family whenever and not have to worry about turning the immersion on/off. for the 3 years we lived in the house, we did the same and no problems until a month ago it stopped working. we called out an electrician and he installed a new immersion with a timer switch, he showed us the old one, the element had completely split open inside the cylinder. he said it was not advisable to leave it on all the time because it wears out quickly, although this one probably lasted 10 years. so we tried using the timer switch for an hour in the morning & evening but herself complained of the shower running cold after 15 minutes etc. so we went back to leaving it on all the time, and then the fuse blew within a day or two. i noticed the cable was hot and the immersion switch was too hot to touch. phoned electrician and he came out and replaced the immersion switch, said it was a bit dodgy and had some blackening on the back. he said not to leave it on all the time etc. i said that it worked fine before and why was it not working now? he asked us to try it out for a few days to see if the new switch solved the problem. if not, he said he would bring back the immersion and get it replaced. needless to say the fuse blew again after a few days and i've put 3 fuses in last week just to keep the hot water going. now i'm using the timer switch for 20 minutes at a go to avoid the fuse burning out. the electrician is being evasive and isn't returning calls. i don't think it's safe & am not happy to leave it as is. we paid €280 for the supply+fit of the new immersion and i'm loathe to give up and get someone else in to go through it all again. presumably only this chap can process the replacement with his supplier.

can anyone advise what i should expect of the electrician? he is RECI certified and has been reliable in the past but now doesn't seem to care. is it normal that the cable and switch should be that hot, even after 15 minutes of being switched on? it is a heat resistant cable, and apparently the new immersion has the same wattage as the old one. i think he should replace it & re-fit, should i be paying extra for this if/when he does show up to fix? the house has modern wiring and fuse board, no other electrical problems in the house.

appreciate any advice.

Two Sheds

Switches, fuses, cables, heaters, etc should all be capable of continuous operation. If not, sack your electrician and get somebody who knows what he's doing.

2011

timmer3 wrote: »

the previous owners of our house left the immersion on 24/7 and i appreciate this is not very energy efficient

That is quite an understatement
It is far more expensive to heat water by electricity than by oil, gas or pretty much any other means.
Add into he mix that the immersion will always be switched on the impact on the electricity bill will be severe.

In reality:
1) The immersion itself is on a stat so the power switched on and off as required to maintain the desired temperature (so it is not consuming power all of the time that the immersion is powered).

2) A well insulated tank will prevent the stored water from cooling as quickly making the system more efficient.

Despite the two points above having an immersion permanently switched on is going to cost a significant amount.

but it meant they could have baths/showers for all the family whenever and not have to worry about turning the immersion on/off.

There are many other far more efficient ways of achieving this. I have my water heating system on a timer. I have as much hot water as I need and the heating system is off most of the time. If there is an unexpected change in routine by pressing the boost button I will have enough hot water for a shower within 20 minutes and enough for a bath within 30 minutes. There are also units that can be fitted so that heating can be controlled from an app on any smart phone.

we called out an electrician and he installed a new immersion with a timer switch, he showed us the old one, the element had completely split open inside the cylinder. he said it was not advisable to leave it on all the time because it wears out quickly, although this one probably lasted 10 years.

Although elements can last a longtime 10 years is quite exceptional in my opinion. I have never seen one last that long.

so we tried using the timer switch for an hour in the morning & evening but herself complained of the shower running cold after 15 minutes etc. so we went back to leaving it on all the time, and then the fuse blew within a day or two.

Perhaps you should have tried turning it on for 2 hours?

i noticed the cable was hot and the immersion switch was too hot to touch.

This is very dangerous. What you are describing is a fire hazard.

phoned electrician and he came out and replaced the immersion switch, said it was a bit dodgy and had some blackening on the back. he said not to leave it on all the time etc. i said that it worked fine before and why was it not working now? he asked us to try it out for a few days to see if the new switch solved the problem.

This is disappointing, an electrician should not leave a circuit like this without being confident that it was safe.

if not, he said he would bring back the immersion and get it replaced. needless to say the fuse blew again after a few days and i've put 3 fuses in last week just to keep the hot water going.

It is important to understand that the protective device (in your case this is a fuse) is installed int eh circuit in order to protect the cable. If a fuse is blowing (assuming that it is the correct size) this means that the current passing though it is larger that it should be. Should this larger current keep flowing it may cause the cable to overheat, fail and this could cause a fire. Constantly replacing the fuse is not the solution.

now i'm using the timer switch for 20 minutes at a go to avoid the fuse burning out. the electrician is being evasive and isn't returning calls.

I think that it is time that you find yourself a competent electrician. This one does not seem to be fit for purpose!

i don't think it's safe & am not happy to leave it as is.

You would be right. My advice would be to turn off the immersion and not to use it again util someone competent has fixed it.

can anyone advise what i should expect of the electrician? he is RECI certified

You should expect him to provide a proper service. Inform him that if he does not fix this to your satisfaction that you will be forced to report him to RECI.

is it normal that the cable and switch should be that hot, even after 15 minutes of being switched on?

So hot that you can not touch it? No, this is not safe. A little warm is OK, but not what you have described.

the house has modern wiring and fuse board, no other electrical problems in the house.

If it is modern I would not expect the immersion to be protected by a fuse. I would expect it to be protected by an MCB and an RCD.

316

New immersion needed simple.

aido79

timmer3 wrote: »

hi,
the previous owners of our house left the immersion on 24/7 and i appreciate this is not very energy efficient but it meant they could have baths/showers for all the family whenever and not have to worry about turning the immersion on/off. for the 3 years we lived in the house, we did the same and no problems until a month ago it stopped working. we called out an electrician and he installed a new immersion with a timer switch, he showed us the old one, the element had completely split open inside the cylinder. he said it was not advisable to leave it on all the time because it wears out quickly, although this one probably lasted 10 years. so we tried using the timer switch for an hour in the morning & evening but herself complained of the shower running cold after 15 minutes etc. so we went back to leaving it on all the time, and then the fuse blew within a day or two. i noticed the cable was hot and the immersion switch was too hot to touch. phoned electrician and he came out and replaced the immersion switch, said it was a bit dodgy and had some blackening on the back. he said not to leave it on all the time etc. i said that it worked fine before and why was it not working now? he asked us to try it out for a few days to see if the new switch solved the problem. if not, he said he would bring back the immersion and get it replaced. needless to say the fuse blew again after a few days and i've put 3 fuses in last week just to keep the hot water going. now i'm using the timer switch for 20 minutes at a go to avoid the fuse burning out. the electrician is being evasive and isn't returning calls. i don't think it's safe & am not happy to leave it as is. we paid €280 for the supply+fit of the new immersion and i'm loathe to give up and get someone else in to go through it all again. presumably only this chap can process the replacement with his supplier.

can anyone advise what i should expect of the electrician? he is RECI certified and has been reliable in the past but now doesn't seem to care. is it normal that the cable and switch should be that hot, even after 15 minutes of being switched on? it is a heat resistant cable, and apparently the new immersion has the same wattage as the old one. i think he should replace it & re-fit, should i be paying extra for this if/when he does show up to fix? the house has modern wiring and fuse board, no other electrical problems in the house.

appreciate any advice.

If the house has a modern fuseboard then the immersion should be protected by an MCB so what fuse are you replacing??

I think you should get another competent electrician to have a look at it so that you can tell the first guy where he is going wrong because he has almost certainly done something wrong if a new immersion is causing problems.

timmer3

many thanks @2011 for the very detailed and helpful reply, i sincerely appreciate the time you took.
turns out this guy has been away on holidays for the past 2 weeks and he's coming back on friday to replace the immersion. i will be armed with a few facts now about what is acceptable. because i've paid him to supply & fit i'll give him a chance to remedy the situation. the app controlled timer switch sounds like just the job, thanks for the recommendation. i never liked the idea of leaving it on 24/7 but you choose your battles! and the bills weren't that bad.
will post back with an update next week in case anyone else finds themselves in a similar situation. i thought it very unlikely that a new immersion would be faulty

aido79

A little off topic here but something I've been wondering about. I live in Australia where the standard hot water system is instantaneous gas. It is very efficient and hot water is available day and night. I can get up in the morning turn on any hot tap in the house and know hot water is going to come out. Same if I leave my house for a week. When I come back I can walk into the house, turn on the hot tap and get hot water. Immersions are non existent here. Why are systems like this not more common in Ireland?

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Why are systems like this not more common in Ireland?

I don't know.
When I got my mother's house re-plumbed this is the type of system I got installed. As you say, instant hot water and very efficient. She has not looked back.

timmer3

aido79 wrote: »

A little off topic here but something I've been wondering about. I live in Australia where the standard hot water system is instantaneous gas. It is very efficient and hot water is available day and night. I can get up in the morning turn on any hot tap in the house and know hot water is going to come out. Same if I leave my house for a week. When I come back I can walk into the house, turn on the hot tap and get hot water. Immersions are non existent here. Why are systems like this not more common in Ireland?

i had the same system installed where i lived previously, makes so much sense. the output volume/pressure was pretty good. it did mean i bought a more powerful boiler than the central heating required, but it is running very economically. 2 months gas bill a few years ago during a cold feb/march for heating + hot water + gas cooking @ €130.

aido79

2011 wrote: »

I don't know.
When I got my mother's house re-plumbed this is the type of system I got installed. As you say, instant hot water and very efficient. She has not looked back.

The other benefit is there is no need for electric showers either.

timmer3 wrote: »

i had the same system installed where i lived previously, makes so much sense. the output volume/pressure was pretty good. it did mean i bought a more powerful boiler than the central heating required, but it is running very economically. 2 months gas bill a few years ago during a cold feb/march for heating + hot water + gas cooking @ €130.

It does make sense and that does seems cheap for running costs. Central heating using a radiator system is not common in Australia so wouldn't have been sure about the running costs.
I'm just surprised it isn't more popular in newer homes in Ireland.

Sleeper12

Apart from not being a very electrician based on your experience, he robbed you blind charging €280.
The going rate for supply and fit an element is between €100 & €130. Even if we said €50 for the timer. That leaves €230 to supply & fit the element. Element is under €30 to buy.
For an extra €100 on top of the €280 charged you could have gotten whole cylinder supplied & fitted.
I wonder were the Indians circling the house with the cowboy inside.

I'm a plumber so maybe some of the electrictricans here can say if I'm right or wrong but if you had a 3kw or lower & if he fitted a 3.5kw element couldn't this cause the same problem.

timmer3

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Element is under €30 to buy..

hi, thanks for the reply. i googled around and found average price for 3kw immersion element at €120 + VAT - say €150. switch at €50, so he charged €80 for his work, seems ok no?

Sleeper12

timmer3 wrote:

hi, thanks for the reply. i googled around and found average price for 3kw immersion element at €120 + VAT - say €150. switch at €50, so he charged €80 for his work, seems ok no?

I think you made a mistake while Googling. A 3 kw dual element costs under 30 Euro inc vat. Price them in any trade counter. The price you are seeing on Google for 120 Euro is for supply and fitting. He charged you 200 Euro for just the Labour. As I said earlier I am a plumber and I've never seen anyone charge that much not even in the boom (rip off) days.

2011

timmer3 wrote: »

hi, thanks for the reply. i googled around and found average price for 3kw immersion element at €120 + VAT - say €150. switch at €50, so he charged €80 for his work, seems ok no?

In reality the price was not unreasonable if the work was satisfactory in my opinion.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

In reality the price was not unreasonable if the work was satisfactory in my opinion.

200 labour for an hours work? I charge €75 call out & lt includes the first hour. A job like that I might change 100 labour inc vat. I've never charged 200 labour for an hours work in my life. I couldn't live with myself if I did. ☺

316

timmer3 wrote: »

hi, thanks for the reply. i googled around and found average price for 3kw immersion element at €120 + VAT - say €150. switch at €50, so he charged €80 for his work, seems ok no?

Is the switch made of gold?

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

200 labour for an hours work? I charge €75 call out & lt includes the first hour. A job like that I might change 100 labour inc vat. I've never charged 200 labour for an hours work in my life. I couldn't live with myself if I did. ☺

But it is not just an hours work.
The job has to be surveyed / checked to identify the issue, the immersion had to be purchased, the element installed, connected and the circuit should be tested. If there is an issue with it for whatever reason (perhaps not the electricians fault such as a devfective immersion) a call back will be required. Once this is completed half of the day would be lost. If you are happy with €75 for this work that is fine, but many electrical contractors would not be.

This is not €200 profit, many other factors have to be considered, such as what to do with the other ½ of the day to try to pay the bills. Another €75 won't do much to keep the wolf from the door!

When someone employs the services of a registered electrical contractor they expect a professional service and they should also expect pay accordingly. This is a skilled trade with a lot of responsibility that takes four years hard slog as an apprentice and operating a business such as this has considerable overheads. I don't know many that are interested in all of that hassle for peanuts.

A race to the bottom is not good for anyone, we had this during he boom and look what happened to the standards.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

But it is not just an hours work. The job has to be surveyed / checked to identify the issue, the immersion had to be purchased, the element installed, connected and the circuit should be tested. If there is an issue with it for whatever reason (perhaps not the electricians fault such as a devfective immersion) a call back will be required. Once this is completed half of the day would be lost. If you are happy with €75 for this work that is fine, but many electrical contractors would not be.

This is why I'd suggest people to call in a plumber to replace an element. Plumbers carry these in their vans most of the time and even if they don't they are at the trade counter every morning. Most plumbers would have immersion switches in the van too.

The going rate for a qualified plumber to supply and fit a dual element is 130 to 150 inc vat. This job takes a plumber less than an hour. Most plumbers will fit the timer too. A qualified plumber will charge around 200 inc vat for Labour to fit the whole cylinder Inc element. This can't be done in an hour. It would take up half a day.

If an electrician takes 3 or 4 times longer than a plumber to do this job it would be more fair to the client if he left it to someone who knows what they are doing. It's very unfair to charge the client because he is very slow at it.

I never said I change 75 for this. I said I charge 75 for a standard call out. This usually covers the first hour but would change 100 labour or 130 inc the element inc vat for this job.

It's amazing to think that the op could have gotten the element replaced by a qualified plumber for 130 and the timer fitted by a registered electrical contractor and still had change out of the 280 he paid. Most importantly hopefully he wouldn't be getting the runaround he is from the cowboy and everything would be working correctly.

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This is why I'd suggest people to call in a plumber to replace an element. Plumbers carry these in their vans most of the time and even if they don't they are at the trade counter every morning. Most plumbers would have immersion switches in the van too.

Which is fine if it is an element or a switch....
What happens when it is an issue with an MCB, RCD, undersized cable?
In general laypeople can not diagnose these issues.
When there is an electrical issue most people call an electrician (thankfully).

Only an electrician has the necessary qualifications, tools and test equipment to deal with all electrical issues.
A plumber is not even permitted to take the cover off a distribution board to check that connections are tight.

Plumbing is a skilled trade too and a good plumber generally doesn't come cheap either.
Why should they be expected to work for significantly less?

As a general rule it is best to employ an electrician for electrical work and a plumber for plumbing. Employing a plumber to do electrical work or an electrician to do plumbing work is not the way to go, it just encourages the age old race to the bottom.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

As a general rule it is best to employ an electrician for electrical work and a plumber for plumbing. Employing a plumber to do electrical work or an electrician to do plumbing work is not the way to go, it just encourages the age old race to the bottom.

Totally agree. My point is the price. A call out electrician should have elements, cable, thermostats, immersion switches, replacement trip switches and their testing equipment with them. It should be a one call out job. The first thing that you test ,assuming the trip switch is up, is the element with a multi meter. You now know it's the element needs replacing. You've spent no longer than 5 minutes to find this out.. you then spend another 40 minutes replacing the element. You can spend 15 minutes installing the timer. Total time 1 hour. This should not cost 200 labour and this is NOT the average price.

You are right, it could be the cable. I've come across a dodgy neutral a few times myself.

We're only talking about the rip off price the op paid here. There's no point saying it may be the cable or anything else. Obviously if it wasn't just the element you'd charge more. But for the op it was the element. The guy got ripped.

Replacing an element is a one hour job. Once you know the you are going to a job were the element doesn't seem to be working then you should have all the parts with you. In my opinion it is very unfair to the client to charge them extra because you didn't bring the basic parts and equipment with you needed for the job. Part of your expertise and extensive training must have thought you that you have to bring certain equipment and parts when you know in advance that the element isn't heating the water? When I get a call for a shower repair I get the make and model before I hang up. The client also has a good idea of the total cost of the job, if not a definite price, before I get to the house. It is my job to bring all the parts for that model shower with me. If I didn't bring all the parts then that's my fault and I wouldn't dream of trying to charge extra for the 2 call out.

I would have to contradict you about people calling an electrician for the element. I can guarantee that the average plumber fits 20 times more elements in his lifetime than the average electrician.

Not looking for a row. Just saying that in this particular case where it was the element at fault that the op got ripped. Sadly even after being ripped it seems the registered electrical contractor he used is also a cowboy. Plenty of cowboys in all trades unfortunately.