25sqm garage query - that old chestnut

hesker

I know people will think this has been done to death but here goes....

A lot of opinions given in various threads on here over the years have stated that the 25sqm limit for exempted development for constructing a detached garage or shed applies to internal floor area.

I've just received an opinion from a planner via my architect that it is in fact the external area.

Here are relevant threads

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88516733#post88516733

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055403984&page=1


Intending to challenge the planner I started digging through the 2001 planning & development regs to see what is stated

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#part2


CLASS 3

The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres.


Note that it says "total area" which presumably means the combined area of all such structures. I cannot find a definition within the regs of "total area".

Within the regs there is a definition of “gross floor space”

“gross floor space” means the area ascertained by the internal measurement of the floor space on each floor of a building (including internal walls and partitions), disregarding any floor space provided for the parking of vehicles by persons occupying or using the building or buildings where such floor space is incidental to the primary purpose of the building;

So I think the planner is choosing not to equate "total area" with total "gross floor space".

Can anyone put forward a strong argument to convince a planner to equate these two terms or a different approach.

Gumbo

DCC planning Enforcement Officers use the internal area as the rule.

BryanF

Internal area
Planner is talking bs

sydthebeat

Planner is wrong.

Your architect should be able to support this.

hesker

Architect says it is open to interpretation. If you look at the wording in the planning regs that I have copied above you'd have to conclude the same.

Telling a planner they are talking bs is not going to work well I'd imagine.

Anyone got an argument that can be supported by convincing evidence.

BryanF

There is a doc I can't put my hand on at the moment that outlines the various means of measuring floor area. Ive never heard of a planner suggesting this and never meet an architect who couldn't argue 'a garage should be calculated the same as a house, do you want us to calculate internal or footprint area of a house too ?'

sydthebeat

There's a few sources for this.

You've already posted one above.

Also look at 'floor area certificates' for tax purposes

hesker

BryanF... thanks for your input but really there's no need to get tetchy.

This is not a question of how to calculate floor area. It's about how to convince a planner that internal floor area is what is being referred to in the regs.

The source I have shown does not say that the 25 sqm applies to "internal floor area" or "gross floor space", it just says "area".

Thanks to kceire for the info above, I have contacted DCC who have confirmed their treatment as internal floor area. I may pass this on to my local CC but that doesn't get over the "open to interpretation" challenge.

sydthebeat

It's quite simple.

Ask the planner if their professional indemnity insurance is up to date because their interpretation may be challenged in court.

DOCARCH

@ hesker. What is the problem? Have you built a Garage that has an internal area of 25m.sq., or, are you proposing to build a Garage that has an internal area of 25m.sq.?

You could seek a Section 5 declaration, and if the planner states that the floor area is to be calculated externally, then you can appeal that interpretation to An Bord Pleanala.

BryanF

hesker wrote: »

BryanF... thanks for your input but really there's no need to get tetchy.

This is not a question of how to calculate floor area. It's about how to convince a planner that internal floor area is what is being referred to in the regs.

The source I have shown does not say that the 25 sqm applies to "internal floor area" or "gross floor space", it just says "area".

Thanks to kceire for the info above, I have contacted DCC who have confirmed their treatment as internal floor area. I may pass this on to my local CC but that doesn't get over the "open to interpretation" challenge.

No ones getting tetchy - I'll ask the same question in your language above: is a house calculated on the footprint including the external walls or internal floor area?

BryanF

DOCARCH wrote: »

@ hesker. What is the problem? Have you built a Garage that has an internal area of 25m.sq., or, are you proposing to build a Garage that has an internal area of 25m.sq.?

You could seek a Section 5 declaration, and if the planner states that the floor area is to be calculated externally, then you can appeal that interpretation to An Bord Pleanala.

You would like to think the arch could be sorting this out on behalf of client..

hesker

Arch has presented me with options including the section 5. For me personally it's a question of balance over whether I and my Arch want to spend a lot of time challenging this or just accept the situation.

I haven't built anything yet but will hopefully start soon. I'll probably give in and accept the restriction. It's not the end of the world by any means just a bit annoying. I just don't want to go down the PP route.

It would have been nice if there was a killer argument that would make the planner change their opinion but it seems there is not. That leaves me with the section 5 which will likely result in the same response given that the reg is open to interpretation.

If nothing at least it serves as a note to others intending to follow the same route.

If someone asks what does the 25 sqm limit refer to the answer should be ... it depends on which CC you deal with.

People have said here before that it's laid out in the regs. It's not. You should read one of the threads I linked to before. It basically said the same thing with only the end result being that the CC in question decided to let the construction slide for select reasons.

sydthebeat

The opinion laid out here is the accepted industry norm.

The opinion offered by the planner is an obscure perverse one.

Take from that what you will.

You still haven't said why this is an issue in the first instance?

If there's no section 5 or planning application, why is the planner offering any opinion at all?

Gumbo

hesker wrote: »

Arch has presented me with options including the section 5. For me personally it's a question of balance over whether I and my Arch want to spend a lot of time challenging this or just accept the situation.

I haven't built anything yet but will hopefully start soon. I'll probably give in and accept the restriction. It's not the end of the world by any means just a bit annoying. I just don't want to go down the PP route.

It would have been nice if there was a killer argument that would make the planner change their opinion but it seems there is not. That leaves me with the section 5 which will likely result in the same response given that the reg is open to interpretation.

If nothing at least it serves as a note to others intending to follow the same route.

If someone asks what does the 25 sqm limit refer to the answer should be ... it depends on which CC you deal with.

People have said here before that it's laid out in the regs. It's not. You should read one of the threads I linked to before. It basically said the same thing with only the end result being that the CC in question decided to let the construction slide for select reasons.

You do realize that if the floor area is ever called into question, it will not be a planner that's doing it. Planning enforcement is totally separate to planning to avoid a conflict and very rightly so

Calahonda52

My experience
Fingal: internal, between the skirting boards
DLRD (dalkey) External

Gumbo

Calahonda52 wrote: »

My experience
Fingal: internal, between the skirting boards
DLRD (dalkey) External

Fingal in my experience is internal too, DLRD I've had experience of internal too, very recently for an attic conversion in Ballaly.
DCC - internal. Most will measure wall to wall.
SDCC - internal also, recently queried a porch extension.

hesker

Why is this a problem in the first place?

I'd like to be able to build the biggest floor area I can without having to apply for PP. And I'd like to be sure that it complies with the regs.

kceire wrote: »

You do realize that if the floor area is ever called into question, it will not be a planner that's doing it. Planning enforcement is totally separate to planning to avoid a conflict and very rightly so

I didn't realise this but again not sure how it helps. Enforcement may have a different opinion but may not.

Section 5 is the only way to get any clarity. So my choices are to do that or proceed with the cautious approach of going with the planner's opinion.

As I said earlier it should serve as a note to others comtemplating a similar build. And the evidence is that this planner's view is not unique.

sydthebeat

hesker wrote: »

And the evidence is that this planner's view is not unique.

and as i said earlier, this planners view is obscure and perverse... whereas the other view is the accepted industry standard.

as you have no planning application to submit, or have a section 5 submitted already.. .the planners view is tangibly worthless.

the section 5 HAS TO FORCE him/her to put their opinion onto paper and i believe they will be a lot slower about offering such a perverse opinion.

Gumbo

hesker wrote: »

I didn't realise this but again not sure how it helps. Enforcement may have a different opinion but may not.

The reason it helps is that the current planner you are dealing with is giving his/her opinion. If the area is ever called into question, by say a Neighbour making a complaint, it will be planning enforcement carrying out the inspection. Planners do not take any measurements on any site.

hesker wrote: »

As I said earlier it should serve as a note to others comtemplating a similar build. And the evidence is that this planner's view is not unique.

I can't see any evidence saying this planners view is not unique, in fact I'd argue that this planners view is unique and borders on incorrect information.

You have 2 options I suppose :

1. Take the cautious approach and go with what this planner is saying and include the external walls in the calculations.

2. Go with the industry standard and use the internal floor space as the area.

Either way it's your decision and wish you the best of luck with the build.

hesker

kceire wrote: »

The reason it helps is that the current planner you are dealing with is giving his/her opinion. If the area is ever called into question, by say a Neighbour making a complaint, it will be planning enforcement carrying out the inspection. Planners do not take any measurements on any site.

Yes, and I have no idea if enforcement will view it any differently that the planner in question. Section 5 and ABP appeal if necessary is my only road to be sure of the position. Frustrating to have to go to these lengths when the regs should be setting out the situation unambiguously. I think it is clear for other structures where gross floor area is referred to.

kceire wrote: »

I can't see any evidence saying this planners view is not unique, in fact I'd argue that this planners view is unique and borders on incorrect information.

From the link I posted in the OP it would seem there are several CCs who view it similarly (admittedly that was 2008 but situation may still be the same)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055403984&page=2

kceire wrote: »

You have 2 options I suppose :

1. Take the cautious approach and go with what this planner is saying and include the external walls in the calculations.

2. Go with the industry standard and use the internal floor space as the area.

Either way it's your decision and wish you the best of luck with the build.

Thanks

Calahonda52

OP:

Section 5 AFAIK is 80 or 100 euro in costs
ABP is a multiple of that, the last one I did the consultant for 1,000 including VAT
For a 25 sqm shed, forget about ABP

kceire wrote: »

Fingal in my experience is internal too, DLRD I've had experience of internal too, very recently for an attic conversion in Ballaly.
DCC - internal. Most will measure wall to wall.
SDCC - internal also, recently queried a porch extension.

As you said earlier its the enforcer that decides not the planner so maybe the bloke I got was different