Was I Abused?

LegacyUser

Hi everyone, I can't believe that I'm posting this but I really hope that someone can help.

The other night I was listening to a podcast of an interview with a man who was talking about his life. He had a tough childhood including an incident of being abused by an older boy. When he was telling this story I felt myself getting very upset and soon I was sobbing as it made me think of something that happened when I was very young that I knew was wrong but hadn't really caused me much concern until now. This reaction was completely out of the blue and I really did feel that I was upset for myself, not just for the man who was telling his story.

When I was about 5 or 6 years old (I'm a girl, by the way) I remember a "game" that my only brother and I would play at night sometimes. The game was initiated by him. I remember thinking that the game was silly and didn't make much sense but I went along with it. My brother is 7 years older than me so he would have been 12 or 13. This happened at least twice, I think probably a little more. One time we were in his bedroom and another time we were sleeping over at our granny's house.

The game involved rubbing your hands over the other person's body, pretending that your hands were a paintbrush or paint roller and that you were trying to paint every part of the body. I don't think that there was any lingering over private parts but I do remember a lot of rubbing on my back, chest and legs at least. I originally thought that all of the touching was done over the clothes but I'm not so sure any more as I keep thinking about it, maybe it was under clothes too. I'm finding it really hard to remember all of the details because I was so young but I think that if there was anything seriously bad, like touching private parts I would have remembered that.

I'm struggling to understand whether this is abuse or not? Is this just a silly game that children play as they explore and figure things out? The age gap makes it weird to me.

At the time I had no idea what it all meant. A few years later I remember thinking back on it and realising that it was wrong and that he shouldn't have done it. I saw the meaning behind it as I was older. It was definitely about some kind of pleasure but I still thought of it as a silly mistake that he made that wasn't that bad considering some of the terrible things that other people do and have done to them.

I'm now in my late twenties and I've been in therapy for years dealing with severe anxiety issues. Our father was an alcoholic when we were growing up which caused a lot of issues for me. I've also had a lot of other problems with my brother over the years. He wasn't understanding at all about my mental health issues and took a "tough love" approach which I now look back on and see that it was very cruel and unkind. He has always been very hard on me. I don't talk to him very much as he is not supportive or positive in any way.

I am seeing my therapist in a few days but I'm almost afraid to bring this up as I've never spoken about it before and I'm afraid that I'm overreacting? I've never thought about it much before and the extreme reaction that I had the other day came from absolutely nowhere and really freaked me out. I still feel upset about it and I don't know where else to turn so any advice would be extremely helpful.

Toots

You poor thing! I definitely think this is something you should talk about with your therapist. If it's something that's making you feel this upset you definitely need to talk it over with them. Your therapist is there to listen and help you with things that are affecting you, whatever they may be.

RedemptionZ

Absolutely go talk to your therapist about it, always worth talking about these things. Nobody knows how you feel about it, only you. But from what you've described it doesn't sound like abuse, certainly a little strange but at that age I don't think your brother would've been doing that for pleasure. But then again I don't know. I have pretty bad anxiety too, and it has a way of fooling us into thinking the worst case scenarios, which is annoying as we can't always trust our own heads. Probably have a talk with your therapist and see what he/she says. Good luck anyway!

Rubberchikken

talking to your therapist about what you feel/remember should be of help.
it is hard to remember things that happened a while ago, especially things that at the time weren't upsetting or seemed bad.

best of luck

Calibos

I've an aunt who was 4 years older than me who on sleepovers showed me this thing where she'd run her fingers on my bare back while saying a rhyme, "criss cross tomato sauce, now you've got the shivers". One would get a semi pleasurable wave of goosebumps all over the body. Nowadays I know the sensations as ASMR. There was nothing sexual in it. When I did it with my other brothers, again there was nothing sexual about it.

Could have simply been something like that?

If your brother never did anything else that hinted at a sexual interest like walking in on you in the shower more times than could be accidental or your underwear disappearing or something like that, then I'd say it was probably innocent.

LegacyUser

Calibos wrote: »

I've an aunt who was 4 years older than me who on sleepovers showed me this thing where she'd run her fingers on my bare back while saying a rhyme, "criss cross tomato sauce, now you've got the shivers". One would get a semi pleasurable wave of goosebumps all over the body. Nowadays I know the sensations as ASMR. There was nothing sexual in it. When I did it with my other brothers, again there was nothing sexual about it.

Could have simply been something like that?

If your brother never did anything else that hinted at a sexual interest like walking in on you in the shower more times than could be accidental or your underwear disappearing or something like that, then I'd say it was probably innocent.

No, it was a game that he made up which at the time as a 5 or 6 year old I remember thinking was silly because there was no point to it but I just went along with it. The whole point of the game was to "paint" the other person's entire body by rubbing them all over. Over and I think under clothes as well. He made up another game that had something to do with pretending the other person was a cat but the actions were the exact same.

I know he wasn't a predator or anything - to me or anyone else but I just have a horrible feeling about those incidents all of a sudden and every time I sit down and think about it over the last couple of days I get really upset, like something was triggered in me the other night. I'll put it this way - I'm positive that it wasn't an innocent game but I also know that nothing worse than that happened.

I just want to stop getting upset about it and being so confused so I will mention it to my therapist next week but I'm dreading bringing it up to be honest. I'm sure she'll help me to sort it out in some way but this weekend will be tough in the meantime.

Thanks for all of the advice, though as it has helped a lot in the meantime.

HardenendMan

The fact is your brother was a child too. He probably remembers it and is shameful about it.

It is possible that although he was young, there was a sexual element to the game. But let's be fair - he was too young to be a predator and know it was wrong.

I'm not taking away from your torment, it is well justified. I just think your brother shouldn't be judged too harshly.

zeffabelli

I think we as a general rule need to be careful sometimes with therapy. I know people will generally be aghast at the heresy I am about to speak. As shrinks are the new clergy, dispensation the new moralities.

The Freudian model, of which a lot of this has its roots is disproportionately focused on the family tragedy. It's an inverse Victorianism which was inappropriately sentimental.

What can happen is if you don't have a family trauma keep looking till you find one and the blips of human error or nature take over the wider context of your relationship with that person.

Oprah and the self help industry have their hands in this too.

What your brother did, yes was inappropriate, but maybe he was not taught otherwise, maybe he didn't know.... Maybe there is a wider context to your relationship.

So you dad was an alcoholic.... No not easy. Tough love.... Dads show their love in different ways... So do we all and we also have a responsibility to others and to ourselves to translate the different ways they convey that love.

My dad too was an alcoholic, showed tough love, but he was always there for me, no matter what, always made sure I got to school on time, didn't Molly coddle me either because he believed with 100% certainty in my competency.

Sure I could focus on the cruelties but where would that get me?

Also be careful.... Memory is very fickle.

FluffyAngel

i would agree with the above poster ,your hurt and in pain and looking for a place to park it ..

thats not to say you shouldnt look at what your feeling ,but people on the internet cant tell you how to feel only you can do that

Lux23

I agree with Zeffabelli as well, I've had a couple of experiences like that but I don't see it as abuse.

Gongoozler

I'd be of the view that labelling something like this will do no good. You should work through what happened with your counsellor and work out for yourself if there's anything you want to do regarding your brother, but there's little point in trying to just find a label for it.

Something happened that has, and does upset you. You need to work through it with the aim of feeling better.

LegacyUser

I get what you're saying and I probably am too reliant on therapy for help in figuring things out as I've been in it for the past 5 years trying to sort my life out. It's a big part of my life at this point, mostly in a good way but I get your point.

The thing is, I've had enough family tragedy and enough issues with my brother in recent years that I don't need any more ammunition. I've realised that the things that he's said to me and the way he's treated me over the years have done more damage than having an alcoholic parent which I never would have expected. I put all of my issues down to growing up with a parent who was emotionally absent (up until my early twenties, we're fine now) but he was brutal in the way he's treated me, especially when it came to my mental illness. I've more or less written him out of my life as much as I can for my own happiness without causing a divide in the family.

I think I used the wrong wording in the title but I'm trying to get it straight in my head - what that incident was and why I had an extreme reaction to it out of nowhere the other day. My mind is just a confused mess and I'm dreading having to talk to someone about it in person. I'm worried that she'll say it was something and I'm worried that she'll say it was nothing and I'll have brought it up for no reason. I also hate getting emotional in front of anyone and judging by the past few days I'll be a complete mess so I almost want to push it away and continue avoiding the whole thing.

LegacyUser

Hi there,

I went through a very similar situation with a first cousin who was also male. We would do things like that (and more) very regularly between the ages of 8-11 or so... I spoke to my counsellor about it as I was becoming anxious that it was abuse as he was older. We spoke about it and decided that it was just kids being kids. Although there was an age gap I really think your brother was just being a child and experimenting with bodies. He was curious about the differences between boys and girls. I really don't think he was trying to get sexual gratification out of it and that you're being a big tough on him...

Thanks

beks101

Agree with most advice so far, including Zeffabelli's interesting post.

What's important is that you deal with the feelings that these memories are provoking in you and you move on. What's also important is that you don't let them play into a wider theme of family angst or being "wronged by someone close to you" and thusly developing further trust/anxiety/depression issues. I think that would be an inappropriate and misplaced response.

The fact is that these sort of 'games' between siblings with a seemingly sexual undercurrent are not uncommon at all. Children are curious, they like to explore and discover; this is no different when it comes to their own sexuality. I recall a few examples of this between siblings, cousins, friends as a young kid; the issue is the adult brain is so sensitive to the signals of abuse that anything and everything will set off alarm bells. When at the time it's often kids being kids. Don't forget your brother was a kid too.

What may be clouding your judgement is your difficult relationship with your brother. It's quite easy to see him as the enemy here, the cause and reason for your pain and your many issues. The fear here is that your therapist, depending on his/her training and experience, may not discourage these ideas. Therapy does tend to focus on the early childhood as the end all and be all of your psychological issues, which isn't necessarily always helpful.

LegacyUser

I'm finding some of the responses on this thread a bit patronising and harsh. Now perhaps it's just me, but I didn't get any feeling that OP blames the brother for this, just that they are upset that it happened.
The brother probably didn't fully understand what he was doing, but at 12 or 13 he was old enough to know it was wrong. There may not have been malicious intent, but that doesn't change the fact that OP feels upset by it. So no, I don't think you are overreacting. Do talk this through with your therapist.
Something similiar happened to me with a friends brother and occasionally still feel upset by it. I don't have any resentment towards him, but I don't like being around him. He knew it was wrong, and he did it anyway.
Gongoozler, you raise a good point about labelling things, I've found it unhelpful, by labelling what happened, and/or labelling myself as a 'victim', I end up feeling worse. I think this is good advice for the OP. Talk it through with your therapist but don't let it become a big defining event in your life. It;s one of many things that happened. It affects you yes, and upsets you, but it doesn't define you.

LegacyUser

I am really shocked at some people saying this is normal and that a 12/13 year old isn`t aware of his actions or seeking sexual gratification. That was inappropriate touching to me whatever way you swing it. My partner was forced to give oral sex between the ages of 3 and 7 to 2 brothers that were only a few years older. I had sex at 13 with 13 year olds and most people I know of started experimenting sexually (masturbation) around 11/12. I don`t know if I live on another planet or what but that would be the absolute nail in the coffin for me, particularly since he has judge you so harshly. Maybe he`s a really bad person and was trying to make sure he didn`t get found out through you having therapy. That`s a big gap I would be worried about him around other kids tbh.

kjl

Not trying to diminish you anguish OP, but it doesn't sound like abuse to me. Your brother was 13 and probably playing a stupid game. As you said yourself there was no lingering on private parts and considering it only happened twice, I would not consider this abuse.

I know your relationship with your brother is not great, but bringing on accusations of molestation will seriously put a divide in your relationship plus the fallout from such accusations could have a very dramatic effect on your brothers life.

I think you anxiety comes from your father lack of support and love when you were younger. It's very possible you are quite an emotional person and hearing the story on the radio triggered that. I am certain I have had not been abused but I would also be close to tears hearing such a tragic story.

Hopefully speaking with you therapist will help you to resolve these feelings and I wish you the best of luck in your recovery.

Calhoun

Dontagreenshocked wrote: »

I am really shocked at some people saying this is normal and that a 12/13 year old isn`t aware of his actions or seeking sexual gratification. That was inappropriate touching to me whatever way you swing it. My partner was forced to give oral sex between the ages of 3 and 7 to 2 brothers that were only a few years older. I had sex at 13 with 13 year olds and most people I know of started experimenting sexually (masturbation) around 11/12. I don`t know if I live on another planet or what but that would be the absolute nail in the coffin for me, particularly since he has judge you so harshly. Maybe he`s a really bad person and was trying to make sure he didn`t get found out through you having therapy. That`s a big gap I would be worried about him around other kids tbh.

Maybe i was closeted when i was growing up but what you describe above was so far removed from normal i would wonder if i grew up in the same country as you did.

Your really saying that because he was mean to the OP over the years it must mean he has had a master plan from the age of 12 to be a sexual predator without being caught? I believe you are projecting your own issues onto the OP and this is very dangerous advice.

People experience a difficult family life in different ways and have their own crosses to bear. The OP has advised the behavior from her father has casued many issues for them later on in life, who is to say the brother couldnt also be effected by this.

I would be very careful OP, if this is as bad as your saying then you obviously must get to a point where you need to report it but this is quite a serious accusation the fallout of getting it wrong will be huge.

LegacyUser

The OP said he has treated her badly in relation to her mental health issues and getting help so no I never said from 12 you are reading that wrong. Why wouldn`t he want her to get help? To me he doesn`t seem like a nice guy and your right he probably has his own issues. Wanting to touch a 5/6 year old all over their body, possibly under her clothes, at 12/13 is not normal or ok to me. Young men who start becoming interested in the female anatomy want to see women, with breast etc usually older, not little girls.

LegacyUser

similiar situation wrote: »

I'm finding some of the responses on this thread a bit patronising and harsh. Now perhaps it's just me, but I didn't get any feeling that OP blames the brother for this, just that they are upset that it happened.
The brother probably didn't fully understand what he was doing, but at 12 or 13 he was old enough to know it was wrong. There may not have been malicious intent, but that doesn't change the fact that OP feels upset by it. So no, I don't think you are overreacting. Do talk this through with your therapist.

Thanks for this reply as I don't think I made it clear that I wasn't trying to point blame at him. I didn't start the thread to ask for confirmation that what he did was wrong so I would have another reason to be angry with him. I just wanted to know if this was borderline normal behaviour for children of that age and if it would have an effect on a person if not.

kjl wrote: »

I know your relationship with your brother is not great, but bringing on accusations of molestation will seriously put a divide in your relationship plus the fallout from such accusations could have a very dramatic effect on your brothers life.

I wasn't ever going to accuse anyone of anything or make this an issue in the family, even if it did turn out to be inappropriate. It really didn't have anything to do with him or with our relationship now. I was just trying to work through my reaction and feelings as I was very confused and conflicted.

kjl wrote: »

It's very possible you are quite an emotional person and hearing the story on the radio triggered that. I am certain I have had not been abused but I would also be close to tears hearing such a tragic story.

Hopefully speaking with you therapist will help you to resolve these feelings and I wish you the best of luck in your recovery.

The thing is, it was a very extreme reaction that wasn't normal for me at all. I mean, I of course feel terrible for people when I hear sad stories but I've never heard a story about abuse and gotten so upset before to the point of sobbing out of nowhere and it really felt like I was upset for myself, not just about what I was hearing if that makes sense.

It really felt like a trigger, that's the only way that I can explain it. Thanks for the advice, though.

Dontagreenshocked wrote: »

The OP said he has treated her badly in relation to her mental health issues and getting help so no I never said from 12 you are reading that wrong. Why wouldn`t he want her to get help? To me he doesn`t seem like a nice guy and your right he probably has his own issues. Wanting to touch a 5/6 year old all over their body, possibly under her clothes, at 12/13 is not normal or ok to me. Young men who start becoming interested in the female anatomy want to see women, with breast etc usually older, not little girls.

It's not that he didn't want me to get help, he just completely ignored the fact that I have a mental illness that ruined my life for a long time. Despite the fact that he knew that I was seeing doctors, had been diagnosed with severe anxiety and depression and was taking medication and doing whatever they told me to fix it it didn't suit his agenda to give me a break or show any compassion in any way.

He took a "tough love" approach that was very cruel and he instead told me that I was lazy, selfish and would never do anything with my life. You are right that he isn't a nice guy (not to me, anyway) and he probably does have some issues from our childhood but he did get away from some of the worst of it as he was out of the house many years before I was.



So, to update everyone I did see my therapist this week but I didn't bring it up. I know that I probably should have but in the past few days I just tried to get on with things and stop thinking about it and on the day I just wanted to talk about more positive things and forget about it. It's also just a horrible thing to talk about. I know that shouldn't matter but it's a factor.

If it does come up again in any way I know I will have to mention it, though.

I appreciate all of the advice. I think the title might not have been the best wording and threw some people off but hopefully I've explained it a bit better now.

I think the incidents were probably worse than some people thought and not as bad as others have said. I'm positive that they were inappropriate. I wish he wouldn't have done it. I also recognise that children or pre-teens do stupid things and this doesn't make them abusers or child molesters. I just really wish he hadn't done it because it was definitely wrong and I was so young that I had no idea what it was at the time and no way to stop it.

It might have had an effect on me and it might not have. I know that I already have enough crap to look back on and blame for my issues and looking back on all of that isn't going to make me better. I'm trying to focus on moving forward and getting better (which I am) and focusing on positive things rather than bad memories (that usually involve something that he's said or done, moreso than anything or anyone else in my life).

Sometimes I have a bad week or so and all of these things take over and it's impossible to be positive. That's what happened last week after this issue came up but I'm doing better now. If or when it comes up again I'll take all of this advice on board again and sort it out once and for all with professional help, for sure.

Flippyfloppy

Look bring it up with you therapist next week. Her thoughts will be much more valid than any poster here.

WheatenBriar

similiar situation wrote: »

I'm finding some of the responses on this thread a bit patronising and harsh. Now perhaps it's just me, but I didn't get any feeling that OP blames the brother for this, just that they are upset that it happened.

Asking if it was abuse absolutely IS blaming the brother tbh
No question

The brother probably didn't fully understand what he was doing, but at 12 or 13 he was old enough to know it was wrong. .

At 12,he was as in experiment mode,typical of pre puberty
Theres no way people that age know right from wrong unless taught about it or admonished for it
Personally I agree with the OP needing therapy if this is disturbing her now
It's a huge case of ott and overthinking in my view but therapy will help and might thrash out something else underlying it that may be in the subconscious somewhere

LegacyUser

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Asking if it was abuse absolutely IS blaming the brother tbh
No question

Is there another way to phrase it that would have been better? Again, I was upset about something that happened when I was five years old and was trying to figure out what it meant because I was a child and had no idea what was going on at the time.

I'm finding it hard to understand this need to defend him, also. It's not like I'm bringing it up to his face or to the family, I never would. I'm asking anonymously on the Internet where he'll never see it. Why the need to spare his feelings? Especially as he was the one who did something wrong/inappropriate in the first place.

WheatenBriar wrote: »

It's a huge case of ott and overthinking in my view but therapy will help and might thrash out something else underlying it that may be in the subconscious somewhere

I don't think I was going OTT or overthinking this. I was just asking for opinions. I'm not the type of person to post anything online, especially something like this but I was seriously struggling with it at the time.

Look, I don't know what "counts" as abuse or inappropriate behaviour which is why I was asking for help. I didn't know why I was so upset and was trying to figure out if it was justified. I didn't know if this was normal or not, or if similar things had happened to other people and I wasn't about to go asking people that I know if it had happened to them too.

WheatenBriar

calia87 wrote: »

Is there another way to phrase it that would have been better? Again, I was upset about something that happened when I was five years old and was trying to figure out what it meant because I was a child and had no idea what was going on at the time.

neither had your brother though
Abuse is a serious subject,its a premeditated act
Theres no way a 12 year old is capable of thinking through to that level and tbh,I'd be disappointed that a grown adult would even think they would
We don't know you but can only guess you were traumatised by something else along with this and therapy will help you there
I know I'm being blunt but trying to be helpful

I'm finding it hard to understand this need to defend him, also. It's not like I'm bringing it up to his face or to the family, I never would. I'm asking anonymously on the Internet where he'll never see it. Why the need to spare his feelings? Especially as he was the one who did something wrong/inappropriate in the first place.

Explaining to you that this kid did not know right from wrong yet and maybe was experimenting is not defending him,its rightfully explaining that believing a kid of 12 is/was an abuser is way ott,given the level of understanding a child of that age would have

I don't think I was going OTT or overthinking this. I was just asking for opinions. I'm not the type of person to post anything online, especially something like this but I was seriously struggling with it at the time.

Look, I don't know what "counts" as abuse or inappropriate behaviour which is why I was asking for help. I didn't know why I was so upset and was trying to figure out if it was justified. I didn't know if this was normal or not, or if similar things had happened to other people and I wasn't about to go asking people that I know if it had happened to them too.

As others have said,you need therapy to work through this roadblock in your life and to understand it more
If this and perhaps something else has been niggling away at you subconsciously, you need to have it dealt with and therapy will do that and the best of luck with it

To answer your other question about,is it normal,Id say its probably common enough for kids to play doctors and nurses

Calibos

I brought up 'The Shivers' game in my post as a possible explanation. So although given my reading of the OP, I am in the 'it was probably innocent and nothing' camp, I am not however in the '12 year olds don't know right from wrong and aren't sexual yet' camp either.

However I'd imagine such non innocent play would be focussed on 'the private areas' and/or kissing. Given that OP is pretty sure there was no focus on private parts and thinks it was above clothes all over 'massaging' and isn't overly inclined to think/remember it as underclothes touching. Thats why I'm inclined to think it was likely innocent and not abuse given what the OP has told us.

The shivers game my barely older aunt and myself and my brothers played (I'm a straight male remember) as kids was skin on skin underwear only at bedtime and even that was innocent and non sexual in nature.

I have one 'questionable' memory from childhood. A possible 'memory' that popped up in my late teens or early 20's. That of a family friend staying over at my parents house and me as a 6 or 7 year old not long in bed when he comes into my room and gets into bed naked beside me. I see his penis and roll over and go back to sleep and thats all I remember. On the balance of probabilities it was just a vivid dream but If true it was either abuse that I have supressed most of the memory of or attempted abuse that he thought better of and the memory is full and intact. I eventually brought it up with my parents and while showing due concern, don't remember ever having him stay over, can't imagine him doing such a thing nor couldn't imagine him thinking he could get away with it if he did, what with them sleeping in the next bedroom. ie. he'd end up with a kitchen knife in his back. WHat with this 'memory' popping up nearly 2 decades after the age I felt I was in the memory, there is just no way of ever knowing for sure but I have always been inclined to think it was likely just a vivid dream. I asked myself what it would mean if it were however a real memory. Do I feel it has affected me in any way. My answer to myself was that No it hadn't, therefore either way there was nothing to be done, nothing further to think about and I could pretty much just forget about it.

WheatenBriar

I do think a 12 year old can be sexual, of course they can but they do not,absolutely do not have the maturity, ability or experience to know whats right and whats wrong in that or most circumstances yet
Suggesting an equivalence with the kind of abuse an older teenager or adult could do is ridiculous in my view
Thats all I was saying, along with encouraging the op to get the therapy as its the proper thing to do