Left Hand turns and pedestrian crossings

Leroy42

I was wondering if someone could explain to me the rationale behind the current layout and traffic light sequence at Clontarf Road/Howth Road junction (Outbound). Another example is the Five Lamps on Amiens Street, both in and outbound.

Cyclists have a cycle lane to the left, with two traffic lanes to the right. Both traffic lanes can continue on straight, as can the cycle lane, whilst the left hand traffic lane is also designated as being available for left turning vehicles.

Due to the sequencing of the pedestrians lights, on many occasions the traffic on the left lane is stopped to allow pedestrians to cross Traffic on the right hand lane can continue straight.

The cycle lane then contains a mixture of cyclists intending to turn left and those that intent to continue straight on.

The issue arises when a cyclist is intent on cycle straight on continues up the left of the stopped vehicles but then is faced with the left signal turning green allowing the vehicular traffic to proceed left.

Who now had right of way? Should the cyclists wait for all left turning vehicles to overtake them before they turn left, or should the vehicular traffic wait for all cyclists to go through the junction?

The inclusion of the pedestrian lights in the sequence, whilst simultaneously allowing traffic to continue straight ahead is introducing a level of uncertainty and danger.

This is also from the view of the car driver, I can see how difficult it is for them as they try to see if any cyclists are coming up the inside.

the world wonders

Leroy42 wrote: »

The issue arises when a cyclist is intent on cycle straight on continues up the left of the stopped vehicles

Don't filter up the left of left-turning traffic, basic road sense.

In the situation you have described I would take the lane. Yeah I might have to wait 30 seconds behind the left-turning cars but what's the rush?

Leroy42

^ but you don't know the traffic is turning left, since the lane is for both left and straight.

Under normal rules when traffic is flowing then I would agree with you, but in this case the vehicles are stopped while the straight ahead is green so should you wait behind the cars anyway?

It's not the left hand turn or the cycle lane that really is the problem, its the sequence of the lights that means the pedestrian crossing stops the cars turning left but allow the cars to continue straight.

Under your idea, I can either come to a stop and wait for all the cars turning left, or move onto the right lane, therefore heading onto moving traffic.

I suppose my main gripe is why this situation is allowed to exist whereby it is my, or the car owners job to wait simply because, IMO, no thought has been put into the layout and light sequence

cython

the world wonders wrote: »

Don't filter up the left of left-turning traffic, basic road sense.


In the situation you have described I would take the lane. Yeah I might have to wait 30 seconds behind the left-turning cars but what's the rush?

On the contrary, I have often carefully passed left-indicating cars (not buses or HGVs) on the left when they were stationary and I could see they would not complete the left turn before I passed them (e.g. the pedestrian light blocking them was still green). Getting closer to the lights turn, however, I would tend to pass on the right more, or take the lane in front of a car. There is no need to wait 5+ cars back from a left turn though, if you can safely pass many/all of those cars before they have any chance of actually making the turn. There is explicit legal provision for this also for cyclists.

Leroy42 wrote: »

^ but you don't know the traffic is turning left, since the lane is for both left and straight.

They should be using their indicators if they are turning left....... If they are not, this is another issue compounding the situation, but is distinct from any layout/design concerns.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Under normal rules when traffic is flowing then I would agree with you, but in this case the vehicles are stopped while the straight ahead is green so should you wait behind the cars anyway?

I wouldn't necessarily, per the above, but obviously each situation/occasion should be evaluated individually based on conditions

Leroy42 wrote: »

It's not the left hand turn or the cycle lane that really is the problem, its the sequence of the lights that means the pedestrian crossing stops the cars turning left but allow the cars to continue straight.

I'm not hugely familiar with the junctions you've mentioned, but the description sounds familiar enough that I think I've seen the situation, and handled it as above.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Under your idea, I can either come to a stop and wait for all the cars turning left, or move onto the right lane, therefore heading onto moving traffic.

I suppose my main gripe is why this situation is allowed to exist whereby it is my, or the car owners job to wait simply because, IMO, no thought has been put into the layout and light sequence

I can't comment RE amount of thought in design, but the fact of this seeming like something of a non-standard light pattern might actually indicate more thought than you realise went into it, and perhaps it's a way to give a high volume of pedestrian traffic priority, while minimising disruption to the majority of vehicles too? This is utterly speculative on my part though - as I mentioned I don't know the junctions you mentioned too well.

HivemindXX

Legally I think cars that are ahead of you turning left, assuming you are not moving, have the right of way. Practically it's a mess and assuming I realise that the junction is laid out like this I would pass the cars in the left hand lane on the right filtering back in to the cycle lane when I can taking account of any cars that were actually going straight.

There is a similar situation on the canal at Haddington Road and Baggot Street heading West.
https://goo.gl/maps/PDqb8

Here there are also two lanes, both of which allow straight ahead and one of which is for turning left. The issue here is compounded by the problem that on the far side of the junction the road narrows to one lane to allow parking so the two straight ahead lanes become one. Most motorists line up in the left lane that won't be disappearing in 10m but there is often someone who decides that they will pass this line of cars and accelerate hard out of the lights and shoot across in to the right lane. As a cyclist you can either take up a position on the inside of a line of left turning traffic or hope that any boy racer types who plan to overtake you on the inside and then swerve across in front of you as their lane disappears don't make an arse of it. In that particular case I can't understand why the inside lane isn't a left turn only.

roverrules

Leroy42 wrote: »

I was wondering if someone could explain to me the rationale behind the current layout and traffic light sequence at Clontarf Road/Howth Road junction (Outbound). Another example is the Five Lamps on Amiens Street, both in and outbound.

Cyclists have a cycle lane to the left, with two traffic lanes to the right. Both traffic lanes can continue on straight, as can the cycle lane, whilst the left hand traffic lane is also designated as being available for left turning vehicles.

Due to the sequencing of the pedestrians lights, on many occasions the traffic on the left lane is stopped to allow pedestrians to cross Traffic on the right hand lane can continue straight.

The cycle lane then contains a mixture of cyclists intending to turn left and those that intent to continue straight on.

The issue arises when a cyclist is intent on cycle straight on continues up the left of the stopped vehicles but then is faced with the left signal turning green allowing the vehicular traffic to proceed left.

Who now had right of way? Should the cyclists wait for all left turning vehicles to overtake them before they turn left, or should the vehicular traffic wait for all cyclists to go through the junction?

The inclusion of the pedestrian lights in the sequence, whilst simultaneously allowing traffic to continue straight ahead is introducing a level of uncertainty and danger.

This is also from the view of the car driver, I can see how difficult it is for them as they try to see if any cyclists are coming up the inside.

Traffic turning left shouldn't be overtaking you on or at the immediate approach to the junction, however the definition of immediate approach seems to vary wildly from driver to driver

whomitconcerns

if there is a filter for left, for safety sake you should be on the right of the traffic parked or in front of it as last resort. Dont speed up my inside when I am turning that junction (I use it daily and cyclists do that every so often and yes I am indicating long before the junction) I have resorted to keeping as tight as possible to left to encourage same.

Granolite

Leroy42 wrote: »

^ but you don't know the traffic is turning left, since the lane is for both left and straight.

Under normal rules when traffic is flowing then I would agree with you, but in this case the vehicles are stopped while the straight ahead is green so should you wait behind the cars anyway?

It's not the left hand turn or the cycle lane that really is the problem, its the sequence of the lights that means the pedestrian crossing stops the cars turning left but allow the cars to continue straight.

Under your idea, I can either come to a stop and wait for all the cars turning left, or move onto the right lane, therefore heading onto moving traffic.

I suppose my main gripe is why this situation is allowed to exist whereby it is my, or the car owners job to wait simply because, IMO, no thought has been put into the layout and light sequence

I nearly got taken out here yesterday. The left turn and straight on light's were on green as I was propelling myself in the cycle lane traveling up the inside left of both traffic lanes with the intention of cycling straight on to Clontarf Road.

A car in front was indicating to turn left up howth road, so I held back to allow him turn, but he then stopped - probably unaware of my intentions - until I had slowed almost to a halt and continued to wait on him to turn (as he had right of way). Eventually after gesticulating for him to make his turn he did, cars behind being impeded beeping etc.. I started speeding up again to cross the junction.

At this point a car swung across my path from the far RHS lane (lane reserved for straight on traffic to Clontarf road) to go up Howth road..I had to pull on both brake levers this time to avoid slamming into side of the car. He was completely in the wrong and seemed oblivious to it as i turned to look back over my left shoulder to see him go up Howth Road he was shouting stuff out his driver window at me.

This is the second time the exact same near miss scenario has occurred at the same junction as described above and this time I am making a report of it as its dangerous with the junction design as it currently is.

I am always extra careful at this junction when traveling straight on and let traffic in the lane beside me clear the junction before entering the potential `collision zone' but this guy came from slightly behind at speed to take the left turn probably expecting me to be turning up Howth Road as well despite the fact the cycle lane continues perpendicular to entrance of Howth road.

Navigating this junction the next time I am going to experiment with not taking the cycle lane and instead trying to position myself in centre of the RHS traffic lane when traveling through this junction. The problem here as i see it is when clearing the junction that getting back on left hand side of the two lanes of vehicular traffic -which can be fast moving at this point - poses another hazard.

Just wondering if anyone else has had similar issues here and have a system for dealing with going straight on here that avoids the sorts of scenario's outlined above.

brocbrocach

I find that junction and the crazy lane-jumping at the Malahide Road junction just before it too much for me. Cars are going at real speed there and there's a lot of confusion with the two junctions being so close and the bonkers parking/crap road forcing cyclists out into traffic. I'm surprised it's not the scene of more accidents.
I either go through Fairview Park or more usually up East Wall Rd and onto Alfie Byrne and around. It's probably a bit slower but so much less stressful. It's the only junction I've ever gone out of my way to avoid.

mjsc1970

Have to agree with you there, im surprised there aren't more accidents at that spot. I too would take the stress out of it by taking the longer route through fairview park

radia

Yeah, neither the Malahide Road junction nor the Howth Road one are nice. If it's not possible to actually move right and take the lane, I still tend to signal right and look a lot over my right shoulder, so cars coming up behind me don't assume I'll be turning left. Makes them less likely to cut me up by turning left across me.

tomasrojo

radia wrote: »

Yeah, neither the Malahide Road junction nor the Howth Road one are nice. If it's not possible to actually move right and take the lane, I still tend to signal right and look a lot over my right shoulder, so cars coming up behind me don't assume I'll be turning left. Makes them less likely to cut me up by turning left across me.

I had someone cut me up there as I was moving to take the lane at the junction. Actually accelerated (I signalled my lane move in plenty of time), swung slightly right to avoid me and then swung hard left, feigning laughter out of the open passenger window. I had to turn hard left with him. Abominable behaviour.

Really crappy road design too.

Granolite

tomasrojo wrote: »

I had someone cut me up there as I was moving to take the lane at the junction. Actually accelerated (I signalled my lane move in plenty of time), swung slightly right to avoid me and then swung hard left, feigning laughter out of the open passenger window. I had to turn hard left with him. Abominable behaviour.

Really crappy road design too.

That's exactly what happened with me too the first time..had to take the left turn to avoid being knocked down as the driver accelerated through the corner.

Wishbone Ash

Granolite wrote: »

.....I am going to experiment with not taking the cycle lane and instead trying to position myself in centre of the RHS traffic lane when traveling through this junction. The problem here as i see it is when clearing the junction that getting back on left hand side of the two lanes of vehicular traffic -which can be fast moving at this point - poses another hazard...

Why would you move to take up a position in the right hand lane? Just move from the cycle track to the centre of the left lane to go straight ahead (if safe to do so).

I go through that junction regularly and, if I'm in the cycle track and unable to move to the centre of the left lane, I just slow down a bit and look behind me several times to establish contact with drivers who may try to cross my path. If there are vehicles ahead of me, I assume that they may be turning left (even of not indicating).

Granolite

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Why would you move to take up a position in the right hand lane? Just move from the cycle track to the centre of the left lane to go straight ahead (if safe to do so).

I go through that junction regularly and, if I'm in the cycle track and unable to move to the centre of the left lane, I just slow down a bit and look behind me several times to establish contact with drivers who may try to cross my path. If there are vehicles ahead of me, I assume that they may be turning left (even of not indicating).

Well in the incident last night it was a car cutting across from the right hand lane that cut me up so figured that taking centre of the left lane may not be enough..mind you it should be plenty as I would concede you are more visible and a driver in right hand lane more likely to assume you are continuing straight on and not turn in on you as happened last night.

Like you I always give way to traffic in front of me on left turn junctions whether they indicate or not. I wasnt expecting car in far right hand lane (which is a straight ahead only lane) to cut across me as he did.

odyssey06

That Howth Road junction is a nightmare full stop... have had cars turning left onto Howth Road, ignoring the red left filter, while it's green for pedestrians to cross.

Shep_Dog

odyssey06 wrote: »

That Howth Road junction is a nightmare full stop... have had cars turning left onto Howth Road, ignoring the red left filter, while it's green for pedestrians to cross.

City council should make a case study of all the mistakes they've made in Fairview. Hopefully they'll put it online or we'll lose a forest in the printing.

There is zero enforcement in Fairview, cars parked in cycle tracks, speeding, driving in bus lanes, illegal overtaking and the awful junction behaviour.

The track through the park is blocked by contractors and the entrance gates are often locked. In any case, for outbound cyclists it dismally fails to join with the Clontarf route.

Fairview is a mess and really demonstrates the the authorities too busy with sound bites and photo opps to tackle real safety issues.

cdaly_

Granolite wrote: »

Navigating this junction the next time I am going to experiment with not taking the cycle lane and instead trying to position myself in centre of the RHS traffic lane when traveling through this junction. The problem here as i see it is when clearing the junction that getting back on left hand side of the two lanes of vehicular traffic -which can be fast moving at this point - poses another hazard.

Just wondering if anyone else has had similar issues here and have a system for dealing with going straight on here that avoids the sorts of scenario's outlined above.

Centre of LHS lane in front of the traffic at lights. Straight on and I don't move back to the cycle lane for a good 50 or so metres as there are a couple of surface hazards just there.