Diesel..article on bbc

Hachiko

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33254803

Article here, seems the truth on daysuls is hitting lawmakers now.

unkel

The sad thing is that people who genuinely meant well are directly responsible for not only causing thousands of cancer deaths because of their very succesfully promoting diesel, but also for reducing first line services right down to third world levels because motor tax intake went down by a about a billion euro a year because of diesel low emissions and this lack of state income had to be made up somewhere else.

Thank you, the Green Party!

ironclaw

Does anyone have the figures for the tax take? I presume the rate is the same on petrol and diesel, and even though diesel is 'better' on long journeys and high, steady mileage, most people are using them around the town where it generally nose dives. There are also more diesel cars in the country as a result. So surely having less economical cars for the use case and more of them, would increase the tax intake or at least keep it the same?

Special Circumstances

unkel wrote: »

The sad thing is that people who genuinely meant well are directly responsible for not only causing thousands of cancer deaths because of their very succesfully promoting diesel, but also for reducing first line services right down to third world levels because motor tax intake went down by a about a billion euro a year because of diesel low emissions and this lack of state income had to be made up somewhere else.

Thank you, the Green Party!

The sadder thing is that the green movement has lost a lot of credibility by ramming this through back along, either with no idea that this would be the obvious result or with complete disregard for the consequences.

People may think from some of my posts that I am anti green - I'm not. I'm anti shortsighted policies used as an excuse for more ways to tax people and manufacture cars with shorter effective lifespans.

Atlantic Dawn

The gain on VRT for the cheap tax would have brought in more than was lost on the motor tax but it requires constant car sales much the same as the property boom sustained the economy. There has been little or no mention of the damage to health caused by diesels in the media, I am guessing they are afraid to lose motor related advertising.

They should introduce a €100 annual clean air levy on each diesel car.

Pov06

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They should introduce a €100 annual clean air levy on each diesel car.

There would be outrage if this was introduced! Think of all the people who took out loans just to get "tha chape tax"...

I agree though - the smell of diesel cars in traffic in the mornings is ridiculous. Thankfully air re-circulation helps a bit

jimgoose

Politicians play to various galleries with absolutely no idea what they're are talking about. Imagine that! :pac:

_Kaiser_

Ah yes the Greens have a lot to answer for.. not least the two-tier tax system they created overnight where those who can't afford a "cheap tax" car are screwed with ridiculous rates, and then again come resale/trade in time as no-one wants a non "cheap tax" car... even more annoying when there might be zero difference in your 07/08 car other than the reg plate.

But alongside this is the current housing crisis in Dublin particularly which is once again forcing people out into the surrounding counties (or indeed 2 counties over). These people are already paying a lot more in tax on fuel costs, but have no realistic alternative due to poor/non-existent public transport options and most/their jobs still being within the city boundaries. Any charges/levies on these people would be grossly unfair when the situation is a result of the current Government's inaction on housing over the last 4 years (if it were up to me I'd be building skyscrapers in the Docklands with Euro-spec decent sized apartments and evicting all the scobies from the inner city and similarly redeveloping those areas too).

Of course this being Ireland what'll happen is they'll just throw another tax on the motorist and consider it job done.

Atlantic Dawn

Pov06 wrote: »

I agree though - the smell of diesel cars in traffic in the mornings is ridiculous. Thankfully air re-circulation helps a bit

Channel 4 had a great program on a couple of months back about diesel cars and the false environmental figures being promoted with them, worth a watch.

http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/the-great-car-con-channel-4-dispatches

We took four commuters - a driver, bus passenger, pedestrian and cyclist and measured the nitrogen dioxide on their way to work. This non-scientific test proved that surprisingly, the driver was exposed to the highest levels of this pollutant. The annual average safe limit of nitrogen dioxide is 40 microgrammes per cubic meter. Despite it being a low pollution day in Leeds, the car driver was exposed to 37mg, dangerously close to the safe limit, the bus user experienced 30mg while the walker was only exposed to 23mg and the cyclist a much healthier 14mg.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/59670-003

pablo128

They could start with lowering the bonkers top rate of car tax which is close to 2500 euro a year. That's 10k in 4 years.

Special Circumstances

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They should introduce a €100 annual clean air levy on each diesel car.

Imagine if there was a country where the greens introduced a 10c per litre levy on the clean fuel, along with all the incentives for the dirty fuel....

Atlantic Dawn

If the Greens were never in power would we have a CO2 based motor tax or would we still be on the old system?

Special Circumstances

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

If the Greens were never in power would we have a CO2 based motor tax or would we still be on the old system?

We'd be on the CO2 based system anyway because that's where cars/engines manufactured in the most powerful EU countries have the greatest advantage over cars/engines manufactured in other countries....

A little conspiracy theorist but...

micks_address

Special Circumstances wrote: »

We'd be on the CO2 based system anyway because that's where cars/engines manufactured in the most powerful EU countries have the greatest advantage over cars/engines manufactured in other countries....

A little conspiracy theorist but...

So question.. A new 1.6 diesel in the 180 tax bracket.. Is it more harmful than a 1.6 petrol?

Or is it older diesel engines that do the most polluting?
Cheers
Mick

Special Circumstances

micks_address wrote: »

So question.. A new 1.6 diesel in the 180 tax bracket.. Is it more harmful than a 1.6 petrol?

Or is it older diesel engines that do the most polluting?
Cheers
Mick

Depends on where you stand on co2. Been round and round on this one. No desire to round and round again on co2 v nox v particulates.
Those who think co2 is horrifically dangerous seem to carry on exhaling it though.

ironclaw

ironclaw wrote: »

.......most people are using them around the town where it generally nose dives. There are also more diesel cars in the country as a result. So surely having less economical cars for the use case and more of them, would increase the tax intake or at least keep it the same?

The mpg of my diesel lancer nose dives to low 30s around town, I've had petrol cars that didn't return mpg that high on rural biased mixed driving

gctest50

micks_address wrote: »

So question.. A new 1.6 diesel in the 180 tax bracket.. Is it more harmful than a 1.6 petrol?

Or is it older diesel engines that do the most polluting?
Cheers
Mick

The very worst would be a "new" diesel with faulty / worn out / removed DPF

the same high fuel pressures that help give such great efficiency make it give out much finer particles

lungs just can't handle such tiny particles

PurvesGrundy

unkel wrote: »

The sad thing is that people who genuinely meant well are directly responsible for not only causing thousands of cancer deaths because of their very succesfully promoting diesel, but also for reducing first line services right down to third world levels because motor tax intake went down by a about a billion euro a year because of diesel low emissions and this lack of state income had to be made up somewhere else.

Thank you, the Green Party!

Where did you get a figure for a 'billion' euro?

Also, what evidence do you have that motor tax goes into first line services? Have we not only learned recently that it is allocated to things such as Irish Water......

You could say the government have lost money with the way the motor tax system is 'structured'. At one end of the scale Band 'A' is 180 euro, while at the other 'F' it's 2350. If you ask me, either end of that scale results in diminishing return to some degree. Having the tax too high results in less compliance and even existing cars being exported, resulting in VRT rebates having to be paid out.

Meanwhile Diesel becomes cheaper than petrol in the U.K. for the first time in 15 years.

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/0720/716008-uk-diesel-price/

micks_address

gctest50 wrote: »

The very worst would be a "new" diesel with faulty / worn out / removed DPF

the same high fuel pressures that help give such great efficiency make it give out much finer particles

lungs just can't handle such tiny particles

With the dpf its reasonably ok?

Special Circumstances

micks_address wrote: »

With the dpf its reasonably ok?

In rural areas it probably is.

The Comeap Report 2010 "Current evidence suggests that there is no “safe” limit for exposure to fine particulate matter. The Report of the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants (COMEAP) from 2008 concluded that, although there had been improvements in pollutant levels, the average reduction in life expectancy as a result of airborne particulate matter across the population was 6 months"

corkgsxr

From what I gather the more stressed the diesel engine effective 1.6 turbo the higher the nox emissions

jimgoose

corkgsxr wrote: »

From what I gather the more stressed the diesel engine effective 1.6 turbo the higher the nox emissions

The more boost pressure the higher the operating temperature, and more NOx. Hence the need these days for the likes of EGR setups, which lower the combustion temperature.

death1234567

Green party in pie in the sky, badly thought out, disastrous policy shocker! Oh wait, that's all their policies. The push to encourage "low emission" diesel cars didn't make sense. You see so many people doing <10K a year but still drive diesels.

_Kaiser_

death1234567 wrote: »

Green party in pie in the sky, badly thought out, disastrous policy shocker! Oh wait, that's all their policies. The push to encourage "low emission" diesel cars didn't make sense. You see so many people doing <10K a year but still drive diesels.

The change had very little to do with "saving the trees" or public health and instead was a measure designed to kick-start the motor "industry" which died a death in the early days of the recession.

Unfortunately for the Government it worked too well, which is why they had to rise the CO2 rates 2/3 years back to compensate for falling motor tax take - so much for the environment!

It's pretty much the same reason we now have the nonsense 1x1/1x2 reg system.. again to benefit the "industry" but which is nonsense for everyone else considering there'll be very little difference in the resale values a few years down the line.