Widow died intestate

Mary BA

If a widow died intestate, leaving 5 children (now all adults) and after probate her property is divided equally between the 5 children, although one of the children still lives in the property, can any of the children's spouse's inherit the one fifth share of the property, if they have no children.....and/or can any children of the widow, will their one fifth share to their spouse ?

TonyCochrane

Mary BA wrote: »

If a widow died intestate, leaving 5 children (now all adults) and after probate her property is divided equally between the 5 children, although one of the children still lives in the property, can any of the children's spouse's inherit the one fifth share of the property, if they have no children I don't believe so, no.....and/or can any children of the widow, will their one fifth share to their spouse ? If the child inherits the 1/5th share then it can be distributed in the child's will no differently from any other type of asset they hold. You may be asking would a spouse of one of the children be able to stand in the shoes of the widow's child if the child has predeceased the widow, if so then then no, they do not inherit

Read the Succession Act - Rules on Intestacy, Section 67.

coylemj

If the five children were all alive when the widow died then they all now own 1/5 of the house and each can will it to whoever they like, subject to the rules which guarantees a spouse (for example a woman) a minimum share of her husband's estate.

So one child could leave his share of the house to his widow, another to his children and another to the Cats and Dogs home, provided in all cases that they have left their spouse a minimum share of their estate.

Fred Swanson

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MouseTail

Fred Swanson wrote: »

So say if only 4 were alive at the time of death of the widow, it would be divided in 4 not 5?

No, the dead siblings fifth would go to their spouse or children.

Call me Al

MouseTail wrote: »

No, the dead siblings fifth would go to their spouse or children.

Does the 1/5 share go to the estate of the dead child only if they've had children of their own?
At least that was how it was explained to us in this exact situation.

MouseTail

No, a spouse could inherit the share even if there is no children. Its all in the link posted above.

Call me Al

MouseTail wrote: »

No, a spouse could inherit the share even if there is no children. Its all in the link posted above.

Ok. Thanks. So how does that reconcile with section 69? I read that as inheritance only going on to the grandchildren when none of the issue of the intestate are alive.

coylemj

Call me Al wrote: »

Does the 1/5 share go to the estate of the dead child only if they've had children of their own?
At least that was how it was explained to us in this exact situation.

Yes that is correct, a surviving spouse of a deceased child with no children would not inherit under per stirpes.

OP stated that all five children were alive so in this case there is no confusion, all get the same share.

MouseTail wrote: »

No, a spouse could inherit the share even if there is no children. Its all in the link posted above.

No they can't. The division under per stirpes is by blood only.

coylemj

Call me Al wrote: »

Ok. Thanks. So how does that reconcile with section 69? I read that as inheritance only going on to the grandchildren when none of the issue of the intestate are alive.

No, the division under per stirpes says that children of a deceased child (i.e. grandchildren of the intestate) take the share of the parent and divide it equally among them.

(3) If an intestate dies leaving issue and no spouse, his estate shall be distributed among the issue in accordance with subsection (4).


(4) If all the issue are in equal degree of relationship to the deceased the distribution shall be in equal shares among them; if they are not, it shall be per stirpes.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/en/act/pub/0027/sec0067.html#sec67

Mary BA

Thank you all for your advice. I will have to look at section 69 Succession Act again. I, maybe read it wrong, for some reason, I thought that in the case of a family home, only blood relatives could inherit, i.e children, grandchildren, and not in-laws. All five "children" were alive at the time of the widow's death and still are.
The dispute among the family is that, if one of them die and they have no children, that the one fifth share should go back to the four remaining siblings, and not the spouse. It's that spouse that is causing the dispute.
I don't know what per stirpes means but I will look it up. Many thanks to you all.

Ken.

If probate is finished and the widows assets have been divided then each child owns 1/5th of the house. If one of them dies then that persons spouse is entitled to inherit all his assets(if no children). If one or all of the four were to challenge it they'd probably have to sell a few houses to cover the (losing) court case.

Call me Al

Mary BA, in that case I'd expect the "child" who had died would have to officially will the estate back to the other four siblings.
Otherwise the 1/5 estate they'd inherited would automatically go to the widowed spouse in its totality.

coylemj

ken wrote: »

If probate is finished and the widows assets have been divided then each child owns 1/5th of the house. If one of them dies then that persons spouse is entitled to inherit all his assets(if no children).

Only if they don't make a will. If there are no children then the spouse is entitled to a minimum of one half of the estate so that child could leave their marital home to their widow/er and their 1/5 share in their family home to anyone they please, which could include their surviving siblings.

coylemj

Mary BA wrote: »

The dispute among the family is that, if one of them die and they have no children, that the one fifth share should go back to the four remaining siblings, and not the spouse. It's that spouse that is causing the dispute.

The rules which apply now are those which relate to to each of the individual five children and their respective situations. The 1/5 of the home which each owns and what they can do with that asset is now no different than if they had purchased that house as a joint exercise last week.

Though if there was a provision in their mother's will to leave one child in the house for his/her life then of course that does make a difference. And reading the OP's posts again I suspect that is the case and that the spouse attempting to assert a right of inheritance is looking to the future and wants to bequest that asset to their family rather than have it go back to the in-laws.

Mary BA wrote: »

I don't know what per stirpes means but I will look it up. Many thanks to you all.

The estate is divided among the children of the deceased in equal shares and children of a deceased child (i.e. grandchildren) divide their parent's share among them. A spouse of a deceased child gets nothing, with or without grandchildren. If all of the children are dead so there are only grandchildren remaining, they all get equal shares.

Mr. Incognito

Mary BA wrote: »

The dispute among the family is that, if one of them die and they have no children, that the one fifth share should go back to the four remaining siblings, and not the spouse. It's that spouse that is causing the dispute.

I don't know what per stirpes means but I will look it up. Many thanks to you all.

Thats the law, so unless they pop a sprog or the mother in law makes a will leaving it to them tough for the blow in.

coylemj

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Thats the law, so unless they pop a sprog or the mother in law makes a will leaving it to them tough for the blow in.

No, the mother-in-law is already dead and the house has been inherited by her five children.

The 'law' that I think you're referring to is the rule on intestacy which would have applied if that married and childless son or daughter of the 'widow' had predeceased the mother in which case as you correctly state, their spouse would not have inherited a share in the house.

Mary BA

So what if the property hasn't gone to probate yet, because one of the "children" still lives there and the rest of the family didn't want to cause any hardship.
The next question is:... If the "child" that's married with no children died, (not wishing for that) and then the house went into probate, would that "child's" spouse be entitled to the one fifth share ?

coylemj

Mary BA wrote: »

So what if the property hasn't gone to probate yet, because one of the "children" still lives there and the rest of the family didn't want to cause any hardship.

That's a domestic, not a legal matter. If they want to leave him/her there they can, with or without probate. They will still own 1/5 of the house each.

Mary BA wrote: »

The next question is:... If the "child" that's married with no children died, (not wishing for that) and then the house went into probate, would that "child's" spouse be entitled to the one fifth share ?

With or without probate, that child is now effectively the owner of 1/5 of the house, probate simply formalises it. If he/she died tomorrow without leaving a will and with or without probate on the mother's estate, the spouse will inherit the 1/5 share of the house.

It's not probate on the mother's estate that they need to be worried about, the matter can be settled by the simple action of the child making a will. If their spouse is already lined up to inherit the marital home and if that and other assets left to him/her constitute at least half the value of the child's estate (including the 1/5 share of the original home) then the child can will the 1/5 share of the house back to the surviving four siblings.

If the family think that by delaying the probate indefinitely, they can thwart the spouse with no children who is looking to inherit a share, that is not the case.

Mary BA

coylemj wrote: »

That's a domestic, not a legal matter. If they want to leave him/her there they can, with or without probate. They will still own 1/5 of the house each.



With or without probate, that child is now effectively the owner of 1/5 of the house, probate simply formalises it. If he/she died tomorrow without leaving a will and with or without probate on the mother's estate, the spouse will inherit the 1/5 share of the house.

It's not probate on the mother's estate that they need to be worried about, the matter can be settled by the simple action of the child making a will. If their spouse is already lined up to inherit the marital home and if that and other assets left to him/her constitute at least half the value of the child's estate (including the 1/5 share of the original home) then the child can will the 1/5 share of the house back to the surviving four siblings.

If the family think that by delaying the probate indefinitely, they can thwart the spouse with no children who is looking to inherit a share, that is not the case.

Thank you so much for your help.

Mary BA

Many thanks for your replies.
None of us knew that we actually owned one fifth share unless the house went to probate, so I need to know....Would that mean all five of us are all liable for property tax & maintainence on the house or is that up to the sibling who still lives there since our Mother died in 1986. He is unmarried and no children.
The other sibling who is married with no children, has lived in England for the last 50 years and seemingly doesn't want to have to pay any expenses towards the house or probate etc...

Fred Swanson

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