Recreational drugs & alcohol for people with intellectual disabilities

I was at a birthday party recently, sitting at a table of strangers, including a woman with an intellectual disability, probably in her 30s, lets call her Jane.

She was there with her older sister. Her sister was very boring; she didn't seem to drink herself, and wouldn't let Jane have any alcohol either, despite her asking. Everybody was getting sloshed and we all said, "oh just let her have a glass, it won't hurt", at which point she got quite angry and said, "No, just stop it!"

Given how 'Jane' was whirling around the place, entertaining everybody, she didn't need alcohol to enjoy herself, but I think it was a pity she couldn't join in anyway like every other 30-something woman. Given her antics, she didn't seem to have any obvious heart problems, I don't think she sat down at all and wore out most of us who danced with her.

The question of drug use is more complex, but I thought I might as well include it in the OP anyway.

Well? What do you think? Do you have first-hand experience of this issue as a relative or friend, or do you think it should be the choice of relatives in the first place?

libelula

There's a good chance that Jane is on medication that would interact with alcohol. Anti-epileptics as well as the vast majority of psychiatric drugs make alcohol a no-no.
And Janes sister probably had the good sense not to announce her reasons for saying no the alcohol to an entire room-full of people.

/killjoy

kneemos

She was having a good time,why give her alcohol?
It's not obligatory.

Flippyfloppy

Janes sister was probably driving them both home.

DarkyHughes

She could of been on Xanax or Valium or some sort of downers which are pretty dangerous when mixed with alcohol, that's how Whitney Houston & Marlyin Monroe died (I think).

seamus

It depends on the level of care the person requires and their own health needs. Intellectual disabilities covers a vast spectrum of intelligence and awareness. Some people are barely more functional than a 18 month old, others are well capable of living an independent life with only the most basic of home help.

So the level of freedom they can safely be afforded varies a lot. My sister-in-law wrote her thesis on this very topic, I must ask her for a read of it. She found it a fascinating topic because when she was working with Downs people, some of them would talk about how they were going down the pub to "get locked" that night (which they would), whereas there would be other full-grown adults there who needed help just bathing and feeding themselves in the morning - how could they reasonably be allowed go down the pub?

Then there are the even trickier questions; Down people can get married. How do you draw the line between who is capable of consenting to marriage (and therefore sex), and who is not. And how do put that in a legal framework that doesn't stomp all over someone's civil liberties?

libelula

seamus wrote: »

Then there are the even trickier questions; Down people can get married. How do you draw the line between who is capable of consenting to marriage (and therefore sex), and who is not. And how do put that in a legal framework that doesn't stomp all over someone's civil liberties?

I think that'd have to be ruled on a case by case basis, wouldn't it? Like you said, there are varying degrees of severity in each intellectual disability.
If someone is capable of having a romantic relationship with another person, then they'd have to be given the chance to follow through with that. Assuming of course that they have the means and support necessary to carry out a married life.

libelula

libelula wrote: »

There's a good chance that Jane is on medication that would interact with alcohol. Anti-epileptics as well as the vast majority of psychiatric drugs make alcohol a no-no.
And Janes sister probably had the good sense not to announce her reasons for saying no the alcohol to an entire room-full of people.

/killjoy

Yes that's fair enough, and that's why everybody just dropped it at the time. Although as I said, if you can wear-out reasonably fit 20-something men on a dancefloor, you're probably of a tough constitution.

I guess my experience was just to show the kind of examples I'm talking about. I don't intend to sneak strips of acid and Russian vodka into care institutions, or to supply this woman in particular.

It's just a general question, although Seamus has probably articulated why it's more complicated than my OP might suggest.

libelula

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yes that's fair enough, and that's why everybody just dropped it at the time. Although as I said, if you can wear-out reasonably fit 20-something men on a dancefloor, you're probably of a tough constitution.
.

Still gives you feck all idea of what medication she may be on, or what medical conditions she may have!

seamus

libelula wrote: »

I think that'd have to be ruled on a case by case basis, wouldn't it? Like you said, there are varying degrees of severity in each intellectual disability.

I guess one of the deeper question you can take from the OP is about who gets to make this decision.

We know that there are fully functional adults in the 30s who still do what their Mammies and Daddies tell them, so there are likely many cases, like in the OP, where the disabled individual is more than able to look after themselves, but their carer continues to make all of their decisions for them. Because that's the only reality they've both known.
A form of benign two-way Stockholm Syndrome, I suppose.

It's a tricksy one.

libelula

seamus wrote: »

I guess one of the deeper question you can take from the OP is about who gets to make this decision.

We know that there are fully functional adults in the 30s who still do what their Mammies and Daddies tell them, so there are likely many cases, like in the OP, where the disabled individual is more than able to look after themselves, but their carer continues to make all of their decisions for them. Because that's the only reality they've both known.
A form of benign two-way Stockholm Syndrome, I suppose.

It's a tricksy one.

I never thought of it like that, that's an interesting take on it. Someone who's always had a carer would/could find it extremely difficult to stand on their own two feet as regards lifes big decisions.

We don't know the level of her disability and neither do you or, likely, any of the other people. The sister knows. You should just go with her judgement. Also did it seem to bother "Jane"? You mentioned that she was having fun either way, so why should she drink just to appease others and why does it bother you that the sister obviously knows better than you do?

foggy_lad

I am wondering if a person in their 30s with an intellectual disability has been judged to have the mental capacity of a teenager or ten year old is it then legal or ethically and morally corrupt to supply them with alcohol or cigarettes or illegal drugs?

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

I am wondering if a person in their 30s with an intellectual disability has been judged to have the mental capacity of a teenager or ten year old is it then legal or ethically and morally corrupt to supply them with alcohol or cigarettes or illegal drugs?

That's a good question! I would imagine (with my uninformed opinion) that is legal to supply them with alcohol and cigarettes - ethical? I'm not sure about. As long as they're made fully aware of all the consequences associated with these actions then.. perhaps?

Mechanical Clocktail

I don't think it's a good idea to introduce drugs or alcohol to anyone who's unstable, let alone someone not intellectually competent. It's nasty stuff at the end of the day, especially if you don't have the sense and comportment to indulge in such responsibly. It shouldn't even be a question, plenty of able people develop issues with drugs and booze, let alone individuals with already apparent and manifest problems. Why compound them.

It's annoying that Irish people are immediately coming out with the medication excuse on here. It's the same when a regular person doesn't want to drink with a crowd. You have to claim you're on antibiotics to some people. Drink isn't that great. You can miss all of the best moments of your life in a blur.

corner of hells

foggy_lad wrote: »

I am wondering if a person in their 30s with an intellectual disability has been judged to have the mental capacity of a teenager or ten year old is it then legal or ethically and morally corrupt to supply them with alcohol or cigarettes or illegal drugs?

I think a judgement is not made on the basis of whether or not the person has the capacity of a ten year old or teenager but more based around IQ .

Legally in Ireland you can give a five year old alcohol in your own home , however I'd imagine all sorts of child protection laws would enact very fast.

If you gave a person with an intellectual disability alcohol I'd imagine theres an endangerment offense.

I work occasionally with adults with intellectual issues but I can't stop them drinking.

Xaracatz

I find that a really interesting question. I have *some* knowledge of this area, and, in terms of day centres of people over the age of 18 who have intellectual disabilities, the final stand is that they are adults. They are entitled to choose if they want to smoke or drink. I'm not saying that this is not discouraged in practice, but the final line is that it is their choice. If they are on medication that does not match well with drink, they are very strongly discouraged. But the final line is that they cannot be told they cannot drink or smoke by their carers - or their siblings or parents.


My opinion - is that adults with an intellectual disability should be entitled to drink, but, if it could interfere with the meds that they're on, then they really should not - to the point of telling them that they cannot drink (and I know that's a bit of a contradiction). I think I may come under some flak for this, but, if an adult with an intellectual disability has an understanding of somebody much younger, and if they need medication to keep them alive, and if drinking will cause that medication not to work, and they do not fully comprehend this - their best interests are in stopping them drinking.

seamus wrote: »

It depends on the level of care the person requires and their own health needs. Intellectual disabilities covers a vast spectrum of intelligence and awareness. Some people are barely more functional than a 18 month old, others are well capable of living an independent life with only the most basic of home help.

So the level of freedom they can safely be afforded varies a lot. My sister-in-law wrote her thesis on this very topic, I must ask her for a read of it.

I'd be really interested in reading this too!

Ave Sodalis

Why was anyone bothered by her lack of drink in the first place, regardless of her intellectual disability? I mean, does it really take people thinking alcohol might contribute to a lethal mix before you let it drop? I'm less concerned about why the girl mightnt be allowed to drink and more concerned about the attitudes of the party goers and the OP, who are baffled by the idea of not drinking... The girl was having fun without alcohol so she clearly doesn't need it, "valid" reason or not.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

We don't know the level of her disability and neither do you or, likely, any of the other people. The sister knows.

Perhaps she does. Perhaps she never asked. Like I said above, I'm asking a general question, I have no idea what medical advice would have said about this specific woman drinking alcohol; that's really not what I am curious about. I'm asking about others' opinions and experiences, generally.

Deleted User wrote: »

Also did it seem to bother "Jane"? You mentioned that she was having fun either way, so why should she drink just to appease others and why does it bother you that the sister obviously knows better than you do?

As I said earlier, the reason those of us sitting at the table suggested she be allowed some wine, is because she had been asking her sister if she could have a glass of wine like the rest of us.

sup_dude wrote: »

Why was anyone bothered by her lack of drink in the first place, regardless of her intellectual disability?

see above. It was only an issue because she was asking her sister in the first place.

From what I gather this girl saw the experience of socialising with people outside of her normal environment as a novelty. I thought it was unfortunate that she couldn't be indistinguishable from the rest of us for one party, that she couldn't join-in as much as every other 30-year old woman, but I accept there may have been medical reasons.

Annasopra

Maybe her Sister was being completely overprotective and still treats her like a child. I work with people with ID. Lots of them do smoke and drink and to be honest I see no problem with that within reason.

Annasopra

seamus wrote: »

Then there are the even trickier questions; Down people can get married. How do you draw the line between who is capable of consenting to marriage (and therefore sex), and who is not. And how do put that in a legal framework that doesn't stomp all over someone's civil liberties?

It's a mess at the moment. Our laws dealing with the capacity of people with ID to make decisions is still the 1871 Lunacy Act

SMJSF

See, they might not have the same awareness as us when alcohol is involved.
I have a relative who is intellectually disabled (retirement age) and she easily downs a bottle of wine within an hour, because she doesn't understand that it's dangerous, because she has the mind of a child (around 11yrs old).
and yes, people have tried hiding it, but she goes rooting looking for it and people don't say anything, because we've learned in the past if you give out to her, she goes missing, and you can't lock her up, obviously. So it's a tricky situation, and not two people with a disability are the same, so you've to be aware to know what to do in certain cases

libelula

Mechanical Clocktail wrote: »

It's annoying that Irish people are immediately coming out with the medication excuse on here. It's the same when a regular person doesn't want to drink with a crowd. You have to claim you're on antibiotics to some people. Drink isn't that great. You can miss all of the best moments of your life in a blur.

It's not an 'excuse', and what in the jaysus has it got to do with being Irish?
Chances are high that someone with an intellectual disability is on medication. Simple as that.

One eyed Jack

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The question of drug use is more complex, but I thought I might as well include it in the OP anyway.

Well? What do you think? Do you have first-hand experience of this issue as a relative or friend, or do you think it should be the choice of relatives in the first place?

Without knowing the specifics OP, it's impossible to call any way at all really. I've worked in a voluntary capacity with people with intellectual disabilities for the last 20 years (some people born with intellectual disabilities, and some people with acquired brain injuries) and it really is a judgement call based on each individual.

I can remember lads in St. Raphaels used work in the rain-blo bubblegum (anyone remember those?) factory and at the end of the week they'd get £3 in a brown envelope going home for the weekend. Lads would be talking about going for a few pints and I asked my mate what's the deal with the sh1t wages first of all, and how the hell were they talking about pints plural? He explained that the lads don't care about the difference between £3 and £300 and they get all their bed and board and when they go home at the weekend they're well known in their community and the bar staff will usually stand them a few pints!

As for the whole drugs and what not, well, pretty much the same applies, except, well, good luck to them trying to actually get their hands on any. Some do, some don't. Hush hush.

When it comes to sex, oh boy, is that a minefield. As Joey says, the whole area is a legal mess that still hasn't been updated in decades, but it's hoped that soon the assisted decision making (capacity) bill will address some of these issues. People will intellectual disabilities can get as sexually frustrated as you or I do, trust me! :pac: Going back to the lads in St. Raphaels, there was one man in his 30's that had a thing shall we say for men in uniform, and one patient we were carrying was a retired Army officer. Well, soon as yer man heard this, it was the most tense two hour journey I've ever witnessed. The ould lad was frozen to his seat while the other fella interrogated him about the Army

No harm though to either of them. Offer another lad an apple or crisps though and if you push it, he'll put your head through the passenger window because he doesn't understand you. Lesson learned there

Recently I'd a young woman with MND giving me the come on while I was showing her how to do stuff on a tablet. Had to be firm with her while I was trying to tell her that her behaviour was inappropriate. Some people with intellectual disabilities though can be incredibly manipulative, and some people with intellectual disabilities are actually able to advocate for themselves, but personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to competency and capacity to consent.

I'd say her sister was looking out for her sister's welfare, no harm in that really as far as I can see from the details you've given anyway.


ps: seamus if you get your hands on that thesis I'd love to read it if it's ok with your sister

Mechanical Clocktail

libelula wrote: »

It's not an 'excuse', and what in the jaysus has it got to do with being Irish?
Chances are high that someone with an intellectual disability is on medication. Simple as that.

You've misread me. I can't drink because I'm on antibiotics is a common reason people give when they just don't want to drink. I'm pointing out that the first page is full of replies talking over this point when the topic is about mental disability. It's not the case that someone with a mental handicap is definitely going to be medicated, that's not true and you don't know this person so try sounding a little less secure in your knowledge. If you have facts and figures though then fire ahead, but I think you're chancing your arm here.

Junkyard Tom

I thought of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4RscdWwPkk