Is this legal?

guile4582

Hi,
Made an enquiry about viewing a house and recieved this. can they get away re: the point regarding children. we don't have any but lets say we live here and in 4 years time decide to have one, can they legally get us out?



Hello,

That you for enquiring at X Dublin X . As advertised the apartment will be shown Thursday 16th July from 6.45-7.00pm sharp. Please come through the house and out the back. You will see me and the entrance to the apt. there.

Please Note:
Minimum 12 month lease
Work and landlord references essential before you move in (not required at the viewing)
This property is not suitable for children as it is a very quiet house.
Students not accepted.

the_syco

guile4582 wrote: »

This property is not suitable for children as it is a very quiet house.
Students not accepted.

I read this as "poor sound insulation, neighbours moan if you make noise". Of course, this probably works both ways, so you'll probably hear the next door neighbour flush their loo.

As for the rule, I'd put it down the same as pets; you get one in, and the landlord starts the process to evict you, as you broke the lease.

guile4582

so it is legal to include this in a lease agreement?

what a world we live in..don't they know that children are our future.....:)

seamus

guile4582 wrote: »

Hi,
Made an enquiry about viewing a house and recieved this. can they get away re: the point regarding children. we don't have any but lets say we live here and in 4 years time decide to have one, can they legally get us out?

Short answer, yes. If you have a child the landlord can claim that the property is not suitable for two adults and a child and begin the eviction process. Pretty much the same as if you decided to move a third person into a studio apartment.

Mrs OBumble

guile4582 wrote: »

so it is legal to include this in a lease agreement?

what a world we live in..don't they know that children are our future.....:)

I own a house that I believe is not suitable for children.

It meets all the building standards for the time it was built (1990s). But the standards have been increased then, and the changes for places like this are because of some issues with kids falling thru balcony gaps, and hurting themselves jumping from landings. Making it childsafe requires a major change to the stairway inside, and agreement of 9 other owners for the outside balcony. Wayyy too hard.

So the condition is not in the lease, but my agent knows full well that my wishes are no kids under 13-ish and people who have a child while there have to move out before the child start crawling.

And this is exactly because children are our future.

Victor

Normally, such a provision would fall foul of the Equal Status Act.

guile4582 wrote: »

Please come through the house and out the back.

Is this an apartment in someone's garden?

handlemaster

Victor wrote: »

Normally, such a provision would fall foul of the Equal Status Act.


Is this an apartment in someone's garden?

So if a property is un suitable for kids and a kid gets injured whos at fault ?

TheDoc

handlemaster wrote: »

So if a property is un suitable for kids and a kid gets injured whos at fault ?

How is a property "un suitable for kids"? i'm sorry I'm failing to really comprehend how that is a thing. Is there some form of legislation or guidelines that outline if a house is suitable or not suitable?

If my daughter took a tumble down the stairs, it would be a tumble down the stairs. I wouldn't be looking to the landlord for anything.


To be honest if I was in the situation where a landlord or agency said it wasn't accepting children I'd be like fair enough, that's really weird, but whatever. Landlords have the cards now that renting prices are rising and there is unfathomable demand. But that all goes in cycles. Building is getting back on track, reworks to rent suppliments and legislation being worked on to ensure landlords cant reject social welfare recipients indiscriminately.

I tend to side with the landlords in a sense its their investment and they can choose who they want in their property, and it's fine by me. And it shouldn't be a big deal to anyone unless you are in that bracket where your constantly being discriminated against.

Mrs OBumble

TheDoc wrote: »

How is a property "un suitable for kids"?

Well in the case of my property, it is because the balcony covering has opening of more than (whatever dimensions - I can't remember the exact specs), and the internal stairway has a landing with a drop of more than 1.5 metres beside it.

Fine for adults, who can be assumed to have some degree of common sense.

Not fine for kids who don't understand that they can't fly!

There could be other reasons for kids of different ages, eg a property on the 2nd floor of a building with no lift = not good for parents of non-walking kids.

handlemaster

TheDoc wrote: »

How is a property "un suitable for kids"? i'm sorry I'm failing to really comprehend how that is a thing. Is there some form of legislation or guidelines that outline if a house is suitable or not

Lots of reasons. Steep steps, low hand rails, no bath, close proximity to a dangerous road, situated beside an industrial entrance etc etc

guile4582

handlemaster wrote: »

Lots of reasons. Steep steps, low hand rails, no bath, close proximity to a dangerous road, situated beside an industrial entrance etc etc

these are just everyday hazards, surely there is no legal recourse to not allow a family to rent the apartment, because real life is in close proximity?

which leads back to the original question, is this legal?

also note the reason for unsuitability: This property is not suitable for children as it is a very quiet house.

Mrs OBumble

No, it's probably not legal in Ireland (though of course that's just my uninformed opinion, not legal advice).

But it's probably not worth fighting over either. There may be exceptions to the law. And you probably don't want your kids living in a place that doesn't want 'em.

guile4582

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No, it's probably not legal in Ireland (though of course that's just my uninformed opinion, not legal advice).

But it's probably not worth fighting over either. There may be exceptions to the law. And you probably don't want your kids living in a place that doesn't want 'em.

oh totally. i didn't even bother viewing, it did set off the alarm bells. but just with the way things are, I just think its such a cruel thing to put in there

TheDoc

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Well in the case of my property, it is because the balcony covering has opening of more than (whatever dimensions - I can't remember the exact specs), and the internal stairway has a landing with a drop of more than 1.5 metres beside it.

Fine for adults, who can be assumed to have some degree of common sense.

Not fine for kids who don't understand that they can't fly!

There could be other reasons for kids of different ages, eg a property on the 2nd floor of a building with no lift = not good for parents of non-walking kids.

handlemaster wrote: »

Lots of reasons. Steep steps, low hand rails, no bath, close proximity to a dangerous road, situated beside an industrial entrance etc etc

I get the general "common sense" approach, but I'm just wondering is there specific requirements and specs that denote a home "unsafe for children" or "child friendly" that is actually legislative or defined, or is it just interpreted per landlord who maintain this policy?

Like I've no problem with a landlord setting the bar for who and what they want in their property, but can we not call a spade a spade? Landlords with this policy don't want children in the property due to the potential damage and maintenance costs involved with rearing children.

Has there been a precedent where a tenant has sued a landlord, or a landlord has been liable, for resulting injury to a child that was deemed from a property "unsafe for children".

I've no agenda here, other then it annoys me when people use silly made up stuff to basically circumvent them being straight in saying what they don't want to have to deal with.

As in landlords who don't want to accept rent supplement or social welfare recipients, are kinda really saying (or used to) they don't want to accept what their perception of a social welfare recipient is(irresponsible, anti-social, destructive, problems waiting to happen).

Like do those who have a "property not suitable for children" also have a "property not safe for the disabled", if the property doesn't have disability access or facilities?

TheDoc

guile4582 wrote: »

these are just everyday hazards, surely there is no legal recourse to not allow a family to rent the apartment, because real life is in close proximity?

which leads back to the original question, is this legal?

also note the reason for unsuitability: This property is not suitable for children as it is a very quiet house.

While I'm searching for genuine education if someone can point me to legislation or regulations, I'm of the base knowledge at this point that there is no legislation that prevents a landlord from being selective in their tenants. And that's fine in my opinion, as it is essentially housing someone in a rather large financial investment and the landlord should be allowed take on board who they feel comfortable with and happiest with and not be forced into situations.

But as with the "denial of rent suppliment" there would be potential grounds for it being breach of equality legislation. But that is a different kettle of fish, and I don't see a tenant ever taking that action against a landlord, simply because of the costs involved.

I believe the government are working and consulting on potential legislation in this regard, as emergency accomodation is ridiculous at this point, with families not being taken into the private sector rental market being refused on grounds of being social welfare receipients, that just doubles regarding landlords who refuse children. So I'll expect that to change in the coming year as its going to be a key issue for Fg and Labor in the next election.

As mentioned above your best just moving on. Plenty of landlords happily accept children, and many seem to have a preference for a couple with children, so you will tick the boxes for plenty of landlords.

guile4582

TheDoc wrote: »

While I'm searching for genuine education if someone can point me to legislation or regulations, I'm of the base knowledge at this point that there is no legislation that prevents a landlord from being selective in their tenants. And that's fine in my opinion, as it is essentially housing someone in a rather large financial investment and the landlord should be allowed take on board who they feel comfortable with and happiest with and not be forced into situations.

But as with the "denial of rent suppliment" there would be potential grounds for it being breach of equality legislation. But that is a different kettle of fish, and I don't see a tenant ever taking that action against a landlord, simply because of the costs involved.

I believe the government are working and consulting on potential legislation in this regard, as emergency accomodation is ridiculous at this point, with families not being taken into the private sector rental market being refused on grounds of being social welfare receipients, that just doubles regarding landlords who refuse children. So I'll expect that to change in the coming year as its going to be a key issue for Fg and Labor in the next election.

As mentioned above your best just moving on. Plenty of landlords happily accept children, and many seem to have a preference for a couple with children, so you will tick the boxes for plenty of landlords.

I don't even have children but when I see estate agents posting this dribble it makes my blood boil.

"quiet house" give me a break

TheDoc

guile4582 wrote: »

oh totally. i didn't even bother viewing, it did set off the alarm bells. but just with the way things are, I just think its such a cruel thing to put in there

What a lot of people fail to recognize is that landlords arn't the government. While their revenue generation on the property is housing tenants, they are in the unique situation of being able to select and choose those tenants, where a government does not.

Of course its harsh but on the flipside, there is a seriously diverse market demographic out there. My landlord was very specific in looking for a young couple, preferably with a child. His thinking being that we would be long term tenants looking to get settled. He wants someone there long term, so we fit the bill and he picked us.

Some landlords will want a professional couple, with the thought process being there will be little maintenance costs for two adults, no anti-social behavior for two adults who work, and there will be no financial issues or late payments, and probably an avenue for rent increases as the market warrants.

When looking for my first place could BELIEVE the nerve of some landlords with their do's and don'ts lists along with their requirement and stuff, then you just realise they want to make sound their investment and mitigate risk. And you realise, no matter how much "panic" and crazyness goes on, there is always another property to rent and always another landlord.

guile4582

TheDoc wrote: »

, there is always another property to rent and always another landlord.

sadly that is not the story these days, serious shortage for people who are attempting to find a decent place and save for their own deposit

TheDoc

guile4582 wrote: »

sadly that is not the story these days, serious shortage for people who are attempting to find a decent place and save for their own deposit

I thought that was the case. I'm in my current place a year and a bit. The market had just started getting mental when we were looking.

Auctions starting in front gardens of viewing, rent going through the roof. Just kept at it and looking and found a great place, with a great landlord. I might just be lucky.

But we just didn't comprahmise on budget etc and kept looking and to be honest, we had everything sorted and dusted within a two weeks.

The deposit? I've written house ownership off entirely. government struck that away overnight. Something I won't forget going into this next general election. Understand why it needed to be done, but don't like how I've being penalised for others who made horrendous financial decisions and investments.

It's a massive shift for my generation really, and those coming up behind. Be tough to shake off the "buy a home" culture that exists here. Even now my parents still going on about owning a house, dont think they actually realise what has gone on,since it doesnt concern them.

guile4582

we are in our mid 30s and could get a mortgage in the morning but consider it more important to just save for another year at least, just get as much as we can, especially with a general election coming up, and housing being top of the agenda.

we are currently in a one bed and cramped, wouldn't mind for an extra couple of bob (not several hundred) getting somewhere with more space while we save, but this is proving impossible, no point moving and eating into our savings. so basically living like students again.

what spurs me on to own is that the rental market can be so cruel, landlords can, as seen make it there business to turf you out if you have kids or if you rent in a nice area like ranelagh, clonskeagh, in a heartbeat put up rents by €500 a month and more. killing your ability to save