Wolves!!!!

paddysdream

Anyone here sad enough to listen to Derek Mooney last Sunday night?

Was in factory with lambs and listened to the programme on the way there and back.
Find him an annoying fcuker at the best of times but this show really pushed the boat out.
It was entirely(the 50 mins or so I heard anyways) devoted to wolves and the idea of re introducing them to Ireland.Killarney was mentioned
The impression I got was that they seemed to think it was a rather jolly nice idea and sheep could be protected by means of guard dogs,red flags(you will have to listen to it as to explain it wouldn't really seem sane) and electric fences(around the sheep mind not the wolves).
Scotland has a landowner who is considering it(fenced in though like a game park) but the bould Derek et al figured that would not be ideal.

Seemingly farmers in mainland Europe can co exist with them(wolves,not annoying radio presenters) so why not us here.
Are these people so far removed from reality that they think things like this are a good idea or an idea even worth considering?
Oh they also seemed to think they could be used as a culling method for the wild deer being blamed for the spread of TB in Wicklow.

Not strictly a sheep farming issue but just imagine a flock after an attack by a pack of wolves.Puts two Jack Russells and an arthritic lab cornering your lambs into perspective.

Birdnuts

I wouldn't take Mooney's ramblings too seriously. In places like Spain and Turkey they have extensive systems that incorporate large breed guarding/herding dogs and stock spend most of the winter in sheds or in secure holdings next to farm buildings . Totally different to the Irish set-up so the entire idea is a non-runner and most sensible conservationists/wildlife people know this and unlike Mooney don't waste time and energy on such things. I guess what I'm saying is that it will never happen in our life times if ever.

AnFeirmeoir

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'm saying is that it will never happen in our life times if ever.

Careful now, the department has been known to give grants for schemes that make little sense in the past.

Capercaillie

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

Careful now, the department has been known to give grants for schemes that make little sense in the past.

For example?

Capercaillie

Wicklow is rank with deer. Even with people lamping/poaching deer numbers still high and TB rates increasing. Wolf reintroduction could be the answer. The eagle/kite reintroductions have had numerous problems with people shooting/poisoning them and the same would happen to wolves in this Country (only worse).

Arrow in the Knee

Tabnabs

http://www.irelandswildlife.com/grey-wolf-re-introduction-ireland/ a good read about the subject and basically why it wouldn't work.

Derek Mooney is paid to talk ****e, give the man a break

ganmo

Capercaillie wrote: »

Wicklow is rank with deer. Even with people lamping/poaching deer numbers still high and TB rates increasing. Wolf reintroduction could be the answer. The eagle/kite reintroductions have had numerous problems with people shooting/poisoning them and the same would happen to wolves in this Country (only worse).

how many local farmers were asked of their opinion before the eagles & kites were released? (and I don't mean at public meetings, knocking on doors with open ears)

none because then they'd of given away the bird's location :rolleyes: the only voices were the ones saying that these birds will take lambs

that whole thing could of been managed way better

the amount of deer in wicklow is a real problem...but with coilte controlling 14% of the total area of wicklow there's not much can be done about that.
the poachers and those lamping, are they having an impact on the population? no. so there needs to an organised approach

speaking as someone who has an approved section 42 sitting on the kitchen table

ScumLord

Ireland seems a bit small for it to work, but it's been a great success in the US. It's rebalanced the ecosystem in yellowstone and reduced the number of smaller scavengers like foxes from over breeding. It even restored forests, plants on the verge of extinction, river banks and improved the health of the deer population.

The problem is Ireland doesn't have feck all wild areas, it's all private land stripped back for farming. The ecosystem that the wolf would have lived in here has been completely eradicated by human settlement.

Capercaillie

ScumLord wrote: »

Ireland seems a bit small for it to work, but it's been a great success in the US. It's rebalanced the ecosystem in yellowstone and reduced the number of smaller scavengers like foxes from over breeding. It even restored forests, plants on the verge of extinction, river banks and improved the health of the deer population.

The problem is Ireland doesn't have feck all wild areas, it's all private land stripped back for farming. The ecosystem that the wolf would have lived in here has been completely eradicated by human settlement.

Do wolves need wilderness areas to survive?
It was thought that wolves were a wilderness species and could only survive there. But the expansion of wolves in Minnesota has shown that they are more adaptable and can tolerate more human disturbance than previously thought. Wolves are expanding into areas once thought incapable of supporting them. Wolves can survive anywhere that there is sufficient food and human tolerance to allow their existence.

Can wolves survive near urban areas?
Whether or not wolves can survive near urban areas is dependent on humans, not wolves. There are areas near and in urban centers that have a sufficient prey base to support wolves. However, wolves are predators and do kill livestock. Also, wolves view domestic dogs as competitors and may kill them. Thus, people may not allow wolves to live near urban areas.

How far do wolves travel?
Wolf packs usually hunt within a specific territory. Territories may be as large as 50 square miles or even extend to 1,000 square miles depending on food availability. Wolves often cover large areas to hunt, traveling as far as 30 miles a day. Although they trot along at 5 mph, wolves can attain speeds as high as 45 mph.

Most wolves disperse from the pack that they were born into by age 3. Dispersing wolves have traveled as far as 550 miles.

Wolves are more adaptable than people think. Main problem is human persecution.

Capercaillie

ganmo wrote: »

how many local farmers were asked of their opinion before the eagles & kites were released? (and I don't mean at public meetings, knocking on doors with open ears)

none because then they'd of given away the bird's location :rolleyes: the only voices were the ones saying that these birds will take lambs

that whole thing could of been managed way better

the amount of deer in wicklow is a real problem...but with coilte controlling 14% of the total area of wicklow there's not much can be done about that.
the poachers and those lamping, are they having an impact on the population? no. so there needs to an organised approach

speaking as someone who has an approved section 42 sitting on the kitchen table

Is it feasible to go knocking on doors of everybody in a local community. Probably not. Contacting local community groups like IFA were consulted. local meetings were organised.

ganmo

Capercaillie wrote: »

Is it feasible to go knocking on doors of everybody in a local community. Probably not. Contacting local community groups like IFA were consulted. local meetings were organised.

feasible? since when was it an economic issue, it should of being part of the costings for the project.

Capercaillie

ganmo wrote: »

feasible? since when was it an economic issue, it should of being part of the costings for the project.

If you were to go down that route your whole budget would be gone before anything was released!

ganmo

Capercaillie wrote: »

If you were to go down that route your whole budget would be gone before anything was released!

if they wanted to talk to the whole county ye but they should of at least talked to those in the intimidate area face to face(with the cost of such factored into the budget at the start). But keeping the location a guarded secret was considered more important than educating the locals

Capercaillie

ganmo wrote: »

if they wanted to talk to the whole county ye but they should of at least talked to those in the intimidate area face to face(with the cost of such factored into the budget at the start). But keeping the location a guarded secret was considered more important than educating the locals

The exact locations where the birds were not released because of fears of persecution. The general location of the release sites were known.

Sheep breeder

the problem with the deer in wicklow is NPWS who wont allow proper management of the deer,

tabby aspreme

Talking about wolves on radio 1 now.

greysides

In some parts of the US previously big Elk herds have been reduced dramatically by the predation of introduced wolves. While they are as yet reluctant to attack people they will quite happily kill their dogs. It's only a matter of time before a young child is taken in these areas.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/mar/09/agents-kill-lolo-wolves-boost-elk-survival/


http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2014/11/17/study-impact-wolves-minnesota-moose-greater-expected/

grassroot1

We do not have large tracts of wilderness to support a wolf reintroduction(devoid of man and unfarmed)
We have a perceived problem with deer in Wicklow it has multiple causes (poaching, no national deer policy, no accurate deer census, lots of cattle/deer interface and no meetings of interested parties to formulate a response)
Buzzards were recently trapped in Baldonnel airport and released in Cork without and consultation(NPWS have a poor record on consultation would wolves be any better)
The niche that wolves filled is no longer open.
In Spain the biggest threat to wolves is breeding with domestic dogs, it would be difficult to avoid that here.

Birdnuts

greysides wrote: »

In some parts of the US previously big Elk herds have been reduced dramatically by the predation of introduced wolves. While they are as yet reluctant to attack people they will quite happily kill their dogs. It's only a matter of time before a young child is taken in these areas.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/mar/09/agents-kill-lolo-wolves-boost-elk-survival/


http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2014/11/17/study-impact-wolves-minnesota-moose-greater-expected/

Dogs and wolves are basically the same species so no surprise wolves will act aggressive towards them. In Europe though they have the likes Pyrenean Mountain dogs bred to protect stock and they will certainly kill wolves - though Wolves in Europe are smaller than the ones in the US. I'd be a bit sceptical about the chances of a child being taken. Its a remote possibility I suppose but your kid is probably a lot more at risk from dieing from bee stings or rattle snakes in the US. Indeed deer appear to be far more of a risk to human life if your look at the link below

http://bringmethenews.com/2013/09/30/oh-deer-minnesota-motorists-have-1-in-80-chances-of-hitting-one/

As for dramatic decline in deer numbers. In some areas maybe - but in others it appears not. At the end of the day they are native to these parts of the US and where only eliminated when the White man arrived, before that they lived harmoniously with the deer and bison etc.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2013/06/study-wolves-not-cause-wyoming-elk-decline



In any case its not something that will ever happen in our life times for reasons I already outlined - I'm not a gambling man but I'd be prepared to stack a good chunk of money on that;)

Birdnuts

grassroot1 wrote: »

We do not have large tracts of wilderness to support a wolf reintroduction(devoid of man and unfarmed)
We have a perceived problem with deer in Wicklow it has multiple causes (poaching, no national deer policy, no accurate deer census, lots of cattle/deer interface and no meetings of interested parties to formulate a response)
Buzzards were recently trapped in Baldonnel airport and released in Cork without and consultation(NPWS have a poor record on consultation would wolves be any better)
The niche that wolves filled is no longer open.
In Spain the biggest threat to wolves is breeding with domestic dogs, it would be difficult to avoid that here.

In fairness the NPWS are stuck between hunters who want to maintain deer numbers and farmers who want them gone. Since I do a bit of both(farming and hunting) I can see the argument from both sides. But as you said a proper forum for dialogue is needed. On the subject of the Casement Buzzards - a few were released in Cork as part of an aircraft collision study to see how far away re-located birds would stop returning to an airport . This part of the study has now finished and in any case Buzzards were already present in Cork for a good few years before that study and I believe most quickly left the release area and headed back North towards Dublin. Indeed 3 have been re-sighted near Casement again in the last few months. They have large tags on them so are pretty obvious. I know this cos an old school friend in an Air Corps Cassa pilot.

To go back on topic - your right about wolves. It would be utterly pointless and a guaranteed failure to attempt to re-introduce them given the current model of livestock farming in this country. Which is why the idea will only ever get as far as idle chat on radio shows.

Sheep breeder

bird nuts
from your post above you must have never had TB in your herd, to say that hunters want to maintain numbers is crazy and npws listen to these fools who are paying for sunday morning stroll and maybe a odd shot if its not too far to have to carry a deer to the boot of the rangerover,
the main reason there will be no cull allowed is the paying hunter is big business and feck the cattle as there is no money or back handers.

Capercaillie

greysides wrote: »

In some parts of the US previously big Elk herds have been reduced dramatically by the predation of introduced wolves. While they are as yet reluctant to attack people they will quite happily kill their dogs. It's only a matter of time before a young child is taken in these areas.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/mar/09/agents-kill-lolo-wolves-boost-elk-survival/


http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2014/11/17/study-impact-wolves-minnesota-moose-greater-expected/

How many people have been killed in Europe in the last 100 years? A handful. The probability is extremely low and is statistically insignificant.

ganmo

lets ask the question. why would it be a good idea to reintroduce them?

Birdnuts

ganmo wrote: »

lets ask the question. why would it be a good idea to reintroduce them?

The control of deer would be the primary reason(they also suppress the population of fox,badger etc.), plus tourism I suppose based on what happens in the likes of Spain and Canada etc.. Anyway its not going to happen with present day livestock keeping practices in this country so its not something I think we need to get too concerned about. Wolves are a fascinating species and I've had the thrill of seeing them in the wild on a recent trip to Turkey. Anyways this is more a topic for the nature forum rather than clogging up the farming end of boards with off topic stuff

Birdnuts

Sheep breeder wrote: »

bird nuts
from your post above you must have never had TB in your herd, to say that hunters want to maintain numbers is crazy and npws listen to these fools who are paying for sunday morning stroll and maybe a odd shot if its not too far to have to carry a deer to the boot of the rangerover,
the main reason there will be no cull allowed is the paying hunter is big business and feck the cattle as there is no money or back handers.

I'm not arguing with you M8 - I just stated the case from the NPWS point of view. They are getting serious grief from both farmers and deer stalkers over this issue. I don't farm in a TB area but I can appreciate the devastation it causes and have no problem with localized culling of wildlife to address the issue. On the Deer issue were I farm, there has been an increase in numbers in North Mayo but the main issue there is with forestry damage rather than TB. I'm not here to argue the case for Deer stalkers(or anyone else) its just a topic I follow through my interest in hunting/farming/wildlife

MayoAreMagic

Big money in deer hunting alright. So why not take away the cloak and dagger stuff and utilise this to manage the numbers? That way we are actually making money, rather than spending it to bring in wolves, who may decide sheep, calves, dogs and children are a handier source of food as they don't run half as fast.
I seen a program recently, where a dealer in London was trying to source deer meat from the uk, and said he couldn't get anywhere near enough to fill his orders. He said there was a real premium on it. There was some wild deer being shot in Scotland, but they just didn't have enough of it. The program was basically telling people to start farming deer in the uk, as there is a big market going unfulfilled.
With the sterling so strong, what the hell are we talking about bringing in wolves for?

Also, im sure the people advocating wolves would have a different story, when one of them made short work of little fido when he is brought out for his walk. Something tells me the 'It is the way nature intended' line would be dropped like a hot potato.

Birdnuts

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Big money in deer hunting alright. So why not take away the cloak and dagger stuff and utilise this to manage the numbers? That way we are actually making money, rather than spending it to bring in wolves, who may decide sheep, calves, dogs and children are a handier source of food as they don't run half as fast.
I seen a program recently, where a dealer in London was trying to source deer meat from the uk, and said he couldn't get anywhere near enough to fill his orders. He said there was a real premium on it. There was some wild deer being shot in Scotland, but they just didn't have enough of it. The program was basically telling people to start farming deer in the uk, as there is a big market going unfulfilled.
With the sterling so strong, what the hell are we talking about bringing in wolves for?

Also, im sure the people advocating wolves would have a different story, when one of them made short work of little fido when he is brought out for his walk. Something tells me the 'It is the way nature intended' line would be dropped like a hot potato.

There's a similar conflict between forestry and deer hunting interests in Scotland. And yes there is demand for wild venison which is why there are poaching issues in some parts. As for wolves, no body that matters(including major wildlife NGO's) is seriously considering bringing them back so I would rest easy on that one. One thing that puzzles some is to why Deer farming never really took off in this country if demand is so strong??. Obviously wild deer gets paid a premium that farmed deer doesn't.

ganmo

Birdnuts wrote: »

There's a similar conflict between forestry and deer hunting interests in Scotland. And yes there is demand for wild venison which is why there are poaching issues in some parts. As for wolves, no body that matters(including major wildlife NGO's) is considering bringing them back so I would rest easy on that one. One thing that puzzles some is to why Deer farming never really took off in this country if demand is so strong??. Obviously wild deer gets paid a premium that farmed deer doesn't.

there used to be plenty of them, then the market fell apart and many just opened their gates :mad:

the fox/wolf thing - foxes are the current top predator but has become urbanised, would wolves follow them?

I have heard plenty of farmers giving out about hunters 'leaving a few for next year'...my advice to them was get new hunters

Arrow in the Knee

ganmo wrote: »

the fox/wolf thing - foxes are the current top predator but has become urbanised, would wolves follow them?

Urbanised Wolves.
That's one way to scare the townies.