Have Loughnane's snide remarks from 2013 become reality?

PlayByTheRules

His comments from 2013 -

"What we all hope and what we are all very confident of is that we don't become the Tipperary team of 2010, when they won the senior and the U21 and disappeared off the map after that"

Up to the U21s now this year to claw something back for them & Loughnane.

danganabu

Loughnane has a very serious obsession with Tipp, and that Clare team could only dream of reaching the levels that Tipp team have.

Warper

danganabu wrote: »

Loughnane has a very serious obsession with Tipp, and that Clare team could only dream of reaching the levels that Tipp team have.

?? Ya one All Ireland each you mean

danganabu

Warper wrote: »

?? Ya one All Ireland each you mean

If that's your sole reckoning of a team fair play, but I would prefer to look at their performances, consistency and over all record.

redlead

Warper wrote: »

?? Ya one All Ireland each you mean

To be fair that Tipp team has achieved a lot more then the Clare team. Multiple Munster titles and All Ireland final appearances. It's been a much better team. ..... and I'm no fan of Tipp

Clare has some serious question marks over them now. They basically lose every game they play league and championship. Still have All Ireland medals in their back pockets to be fair to them though. Can't understand how they are sticking with Davy at this stage. They need someone to come in and freshen things up.

Davys Fits

Tipp are the only team that have put it up to KK consistently in the last 10 years. Clare have struggled with every other team in the chasing pack of 6 or 7. Even in 2013 they struggled with Wexford and Cork in the drawn final. Not a fair comparison really! I think we need to have a serious rethonk on how good Clare really are. They lack killer instinct at a minimum.

CrabRevolution

In the 2 years following their AI win, Tipp won Munster twice pulling up (remember they beat Waterford by 20 points in one final?). They reached the final in 2011 as well, losing by 4 to Kilkenny.

Clare meanwhile have gotten relegated from the league, and lost all championship ties bar the Offaly one. Clare can only aspire to Tipp's "failure".

randd1

danganabu wrote: »

If that's your sole reckoning of a team fair play, but I would prefer to look at their performances, consistency and over all record.

Good point. Clare have been much vaunted about winning 4 U21 AI titles in 6 years, starting in 2009. That is a brilliant achievement and great consistency at that level.

During that period at senior they have had 4 good performances in 10 weeks in 2013 against a shocking poor Galway side coming off a Leinster Final mauling, a Limerick side that never really showed up yet still hit and embarrassment of wides, and 2 AI finals against Cork that lacked any type of defensive quality, decent tackling, high tempo intensity or physicality against the most porous Cork side to have ever played in Croke Park.

Outside of those four matches, against lets face it, not the greatest sides in the way of an AI title, Clare have offered, in that same time since their first U21 in 2009, in senior inter-county hurling in both league and championship....... Pretty much nothing of any note.
No consistency of performance, no hint of a trophy, no hint of a final appearance in League, Munster or AI, no top quality, hell barely even average quality.

Now, they deserved their AI in 2013, any team that wins one deserves it, and they did play some fine stuff.
But there is no doubt they were massively over-hyped after that win, especially in the context of what how poor, never mind average, they were before then. The hype was 5% their age profile, 5% the fact it was a freak and exciting year of hurling and 80% that everyone was delirious that it was neither Kilkenny or Tipp than won the AI. The other 10% was the U21 reputation, where they won AI titles by running the opposition ragged, and a high speed running game.

Since the AI win, when they had no one to surprise anymore, they have been..... average at best, offering nothing as a serious trophy threat in either league or championship.

The hype and U21 success has covered up a lot of deficiencies, mostly the fact that a lot of the players, especially those from midfield and in the backs, have not made the step up to quality senior level, and maybe never will.
The lads they were running rings around at U21 are suddenly just as fit, fast, and most cases physically stronger than the Clare lads so the advantage of senior training they had U21 is gone out the window.

Now Davy has to take a lot of blame for this, his system is not designed for flair players which is what Clare have(and that was the case with Waterford as well), and as the man in charge, ultimately he's responsible. And I think he should go as he's never going to allow these players the system to best utilize their talents.

However, even if Davy were to go, Clare are still left with some glaring problems. The lack of good, never mind quality, defenders. The lack of cover from midfield. The lack of forwards willing to track the runners back consistently. Lack of physical power all around the field. Lack of a quality bench. And just as crucially, the mental burden of unrealistic expectations.

Clare, if you are to judge them or their overall record, are at best, an average side with a lot of average players that every team knows can be beaten if you have a go at them. And one good run that led to an AI has not changed that simple fact.

Might seem harsh, but you have to call a spade a spade.

Deisegodeo

Well its been confirmed that Davy is staying on for 2016 at least, according to RTE anyway.

Davys Fits

Tony Kelly is an exceptional Hurler
Conor Mcgrath and John Conlon are also top forwards.
I think David McInerney can yet be a top defender in the game. The rest are average to good inter county hurlers. Clare need at least another key defender an imposing midfield and probably another talented forward which I believe they can find. If fitz continues with this bunch hoping that time will mature them then clare will never win anything.

Pride Fighter

Clare have another all Ireland or 2 in them at least. When most of their players are physically mature between the ages of 24-29 they should be a serious outfit if coached right.

danganabu

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Clare have another all Ireland or 2 in them at least. When most of their players are physically mature between the ages of 24-29 they should be a serious outfit if coached right.

That's a pretty massive 'if' though, and losing becomes a very difficult habit to shakeoff, they wouldnt exactly be the first county to fail to progress from underage success to senior, they only have to look across the shannon.

nice_guy80

until referees start refereeing games properly at county level then the likes of Kilkenny will continue to dominate

they and a few other teams are let away with so much stuff it is crazy - frontal charges, holding of hurleys, tugging back of a player, using the hurley to nudge/barge players in the back of helmets when going for high catches.

skillful and fast players are being punished for being bullied by bigger more physically aggressive players

Gentleman Off The Pitch

nice_guy80 wrote: »

until referees start refereeing games properly at county level then the likes of Kilkenny will continue to dominate

they and a few other teams are let away with so much stuff it is crazy - frontal charges, holding of hurleys, tugging back of a player, using the hurley to nudge/barge players in the back of helmets when going for high catches.

skillful and fast players are being punished for being bullied by bigger more physically aggressive players

Jesus you never have any positive to say about Kilkenny, the last decade of inter county hurling must have been tough for you.

Even in a thread about Loughnane and Clare your whining about Kilkenny continues. You give off the impression that you believe that because you do some refereeing you have some deeper than normal insight into what goes in a game of hurling, that you see the things that others miss.

Well if that was the case, you'd release that the things you attribute solely to Kilkenny players (I'm not just referring to this thread here) are committed by players from all competitive inter county teams. Alas, your hatred of Kilkenny would never allow that particular realization

nice_guy80

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

Jesus you never have any positive to say about Kilkenny, the last decade of inter county hurling must have been tough for you.

Even in a thread about Loughnane and Clare your whining about Kilkenny continues. You give off the impression that you believe that because you do some refereeing you have some deeper than normal insight into what goes in a game of hurling, that you see the things that others miss.

Well if that was the case, you'd release that the things you attribute solely to Kilkenny players (I'm not just referring to this thread here) are committed by players from all competitive inter county teams. Alas, your hatred of Kilkenny would never allow that particular realization

I don't understand how club games and county games can be refereed differently

ie a different set of rules

The Lost Sheep

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I don't understand how club games and county games can be refereed differently

ie a different set of rules

Referees will allow more/can let things go in inter county games that they wouldn't be able to do in club games. Its the same in all sports. Nothing to do with a different rule book but you have to take into account different abilities of players etc

Clareman

Clare have won more All Irelands in the past 20 years that Tipp, you can say whatever else you want about performances or challenging or provincial titles or whatever you want, 3 All Ireland's in 20 years vs. 2 is what has happened.

Looking at the future however I think Tipp have a far better outlook than Clare have with their current setup, Tipp seem to be bringing through a few players every year from that under 21 team and making themselves stronger whereas Clare are losing players each year. The Tipp under 21s from 2010 are hitting their prime now as well which should mean they are contenders for the next couple of years.

CrabRevolution

20 years is a bit of an arbitrary number of years to compare the 2 over. Why not 25 or 30? Because then Clare wouldn't have more All Irelands than Tipp in that space of time?

danganabu

CrabRevolution wrote: »

20 years is a bit of an arbitrary number of years to compare the 2 over. Why not 25 or 30? Because then Clare wouldn't have more All Irelands than Tipp in that space of time?

Any timeframe is irrelevant this thread is about the Tipp 2010 team and the Clare 2013 team, the Clare team of 95& 97 and the Tipp team of 2001 is completely irrelevant.

Realt Dearg Sec

nice_guy80 wrote: »

until referees start refereeing games properly at county level then the likes of Kilkenny will continue to dominate

they and a few other teams are let away with so much stuff it is crazy - frontal charges, holding of hurleys, tugging back of a player, using the hurley to nudge/barge players in the back of helmets when going for high catches.

skillful and fast players are being punished for being bullied by bigger more physically aggressive players

What the **** does refereeing and your weird obsession with Kilkenny have to do with clares underperformance the last few years? Clare are by far the most indisciplined team in the championship the last two years, which isn't surprising given their manager has no respect for the rules, opposition, or referees. The idea that his persistent failure is in some way to be blamed on Kilkenny (and other suspiciously unnamed counties) being reffed differently is just pathetic.

nice_guy80

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What the **** does refereeing and your weird obsession with Kilkenny have to do with clares underperformance the last few years? Clare are by far the most indisciplined team in the championship the last two years, which isn't surprising given their manager has no respect for the rules, opposition, or referees. The idea that his persistent failure is in some way to be blamed on Kilkenny (and other suspiciously unnamed counties) being reffed differently is just pathetic.

Clare are a much smaller team
When have they beaten a team like Tipp or Kilkenny?

randd1

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Clare are a much smaller team
When have they beaten a team like Tipp or Kilkenny?

What is your point though?

Clareman

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Clare are a much smaller team
When have they beaten a team like Tipp or Kilkenny?

Physically small, yes they are, and they do struggle for ball winners, but they've never had to go up against Tipp or Kilkenny so it's hard to know how Tipp or Kilkenny would do against the small, nippy, skillful players Clare have (not that anyone is struggling against them now)

randd1

Clareman wrote: »

Physically small, yes they are, and they do struggle for ball winners, but they've never had to go up against Tipp or Kilkenny so it's hard to know how Tipp or Kilkenny would do against the small, nippy, skillful players Clare have (not that anyone is struggling against them now)

The difference there is Kilkenny and Tipp have big, nippy, skillful hurlers, and superior defenses and midfields.

And it's not like the Clare lads are dwarves or something of the like, Clare have plenty if big lads. They just aren't as good as we were led to believe (Honan for example).

Clareman

randd1 wrote: »

The difference there is Kilkenny and Tipp have big, nippy, skillful hurlers, and superior defenses and midfields.

And it's not like the Clare lads are dwarves or something of the like, Clare have plenty if big lads. They just aren't as good as we were led to believe (Honan for example).

I honestly believe that if Clare continued to play like they did in the 2 Finals in 2013 that no-one could cope with them, the only way you could deal with the runners would be to foul them and Colin Ryan was on fire then.

In regards to the KK/Tipp defences, keep an eye out on all the fouls that are conceded around the 65/midfield area or by the half forwards, their defence is to not let the play develop, it also helps when 1 of the teams have some of the best players to ever play the game, ffs Tipp made a mockery of themselves by trying to man-mark 1 of the KK defenders.

randd1

Clareman wrote: »

I honestly believe that if Clare continued to play like they did in the 2 Finals in 2013 that no-one could cope with them, the only way you could deal with the runners would be to foul them and Colin Ryan was on fire then.

In regards to the KK/Tipp defences, keep an eye out on all the fouls that are conceded around the 65/midfield area or by the half forwards, their defence is to not let the play develop, it also helps when 1 of the teams have some of the best players to ever play the game, ffs Tipp made a mockery of themselves by trying to man-mark 1 of the KK defenders.

A big part of the way Clare played the 2013 finals was down to how poor the Cork defense was, Clare walked through at will. Had they faced an in form Kilkenny or Tipp, they not only would not have got through with the ease they did against Cork, they would have been turned over enough for their defense to be bombarded.

Those 2013 finals were the worst finals for physicality, defending, tracking back, closing down and aerial quality in living memory. It's easy for forwards to look good in those circumstances.

Clareman

randd1 wrote: »

Those 2013 finals were the worst finals for physicality, defending, tracking back, closing down and aerial quality in living memory. It's easy for forwards to look good in those circumstances.

You don't count finals where KK win by double digits then I take it.

randd1

Clareman wrote: »

You don't count finals where KK win by double digits then I take it.

The difference there is Kilkenny WIN other finals, not fail to even make them, even if they occasionally win one by double digits, because they have the quality to do so.

Clareman

randd1 wrote: »

The difference there is Kilkenny WIN other finals, not fail to even make them, even if they occasionally win one by double digits, because they have the quality to do so.

Fair enough, there is no doubt that the Kilkenny teams are some of (if not the) best teams of all time, but I will contest

randd wrote:

Those 2013 finals were the worst finals for physicality, defending, tracking back, closing down and aerial quality in living memory. It's easy for forwards to look good in those circumstances.

Just because it's not a bunch of 6"+ guys hammering into each other doesn't mean it's not good forward play, some of the skills shown in 2013 on both sides was up there with some of the best All Ireland's of all time, just because you don't have a guy jumping on another guys back to grab the ball to them get a free cause he was pulled down doesn't mean it's not good aerial quality.

I would say that the 2013 finals were some of the best of all time for tracking back and closing down of all time.

maniac2003

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What the **** does refereeing and your weird obsession with Kilkenny have to do with clares underperformance the last few years? Clare are by far the most indisciplined team in the championship the last two years, which isn't surprising given their manager has no respect for the rules, opposition, or referees. The idea that his persistent failure is in some way to be blamed on Kilkenny (and other suspiciously unnamed counties) being reffed differently is just pathetic.

off topic but how are the realt dearg getting on now? is the club 5 years old now?

Realt Dearg Sec

maniac2003 wrote: »

off topic but how are the realt dearg getting on now? is the club 5 years old now?

Grand yeah, three teams now, win our first trophy last year, a league 7 win. Lots of Clare lads in it with strong opinions on the topic here. General consensus among them, by and large, is that Davy is doing more harm than good. Not many of them blaming referees for their current predicament.

Limestone Cowboy

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Grand yeah, three teams now, win our first trophy last year, a league 7 win. Lots of Clare lads in it with strong opinions on the topic here. General consensus among them, by and large, is that Davy is doing more harm than good. Not many of them blaming referees for their current predicament.

The only Clare man blaming the refs is Davy

PlayByTheRules

Looks like a hit the spot with this thread. Felt those comments were completely over the top at the time and that Loughnane was only cursing the team.

I hope Clare do manage to push on as the hurling championship is, as Cheddar Plunkett said, becoming elitist.

CrabRevolution

I'd have thought it was already elitist. From 1999 to 2012 we had the longest period of Kilkenny/Tipperary/Cork dominance since the championship began. Clare's win was the first since Offaly in 98 not to have been by one of those top 3. Naturally enough it returned to normal last year with KK winning against Tipp, and I can only see it continuing this year, with those 2 teams by far the front runners in the championship.

randd1

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'd have thought it was already elitist. From 1999 to 2012 we had the longest period of Kilkenny/Tipperary/Cork dominance since the championship began. Clare's win was the first since Offaly in 98 not to have been by one of those top 3. Naturally enough it returned to normal last year with KK winning against Tipp, and I can only see it continuing this year, with those 2 teams by far the front runners in the championship.

Tradition is still a factor, and the big three have the strong hurling tradition behind them.

It's starting to change a bit underage, they're not as successful as before, certainly not as dominant, as other counties are starting to create their own traditions.

We're probably starting to see a move towards more counties being within a shout for a trophy, though it make take a generation, maybe two, before the lads that have been out with their clubs since the age of 5/6 start to come through in the non traditional counties and we'll have a real open championship.

Though arguably the best way for the likes of Clare, Waterford, Limerick, Offaly, Wexford and Laois to really come to the fore in hurling is to puncture every football in the county, their populations simply don't have enough numbers to concentrate on two codes at the highest level.

nice_guy80

Clareman wrote: »

Physically small, yes they are, and they do struggle for ball winners, but they've never had to go up against Tipp or Kilkenny so it's hard to know how Tipp or Kilkenny would do against the small, nippy, skillful players Clare have (not that anyone is struggling against them now)

Relegation games in the league this year

nice_guy80

Clareman wrote: »

Fair enough, there is no doubt that the Kilkenny teams are some of (if not the) best teams of all time, but I will contest



Just because it's not a bunch of 6"+ guys hammering into each other doesn't mean it's not good forward play, some of the skills shown in 2013 on both sides was up there with some of the best All Ireland's of all time, just because you don't have a guy jumping on another guys back to grab the ball to them get a free cause he was pulled down doesn't mean it's not good aerial quality.

I would say that the 2013 finals were some of the best of all time for tracking back and closing down of all time.

Hurling is gone in favour of the big man able to catch the ball and barge through a tackle

citykat

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Hurling is gone in favour of the big man able to catch the ball and barge through a tackle

Who won hurler of the year last year again? Along with TJ, that same giant is in the running again this year.

nice_guy80

citykat wrote: »

Who won hurler of the year last year again? Along with TJ, that same giant is in the running again this year.

2 out of 14 outfield players.

randd1

nice_guy80 wrote: »

2 out of 14 outfield players.

Padraig Walsh, Conor Fogarty, Joey Holden aren't massive either. Well built, but not massive.

Realt Dearg Sec

nice_guy80 wrote: »

2 out of 14 outfield players.

Seriously, are you actually saying that refereeing is why Clare are ****? Because if not, then your point, whatever it is, isn't relevant to this thread.

Sorry, not just that referees are bad, but also that Kilkenny are big, which presumably you think should be against the rules or something (who knows? You haven't clarified what your point is).

Even taking either of these two points to be your point, Clare aren't the second best team in hurling right now, with only big bad Kilkenny in the way of their innocent, small, skilful, not at all undisciplined masters of hurling. They aren't third best either. Or fourth. Or fifth. Or sixth. They might be seventh. Maybe. Are you really, honestly saying that the issue that keeps them as seventh best team in the country is refereeing (or players being big and catching the ball, whichever one you have a problem with today)?

Because I don't think that opinion needs to be taken seriously, to be honest.