What kind of relationship do you want?

Sleepy

The recently closed "polish burds" thread had the potential for an interesting conversation in it as regards to what kind of relationship Irish men would seek: one where both parties work outside the home versus one where one is a stay at home parent.

Personally, my wife is a stay-at-home mum who does some part-time child-minding. Returning to full-time work isn't really an option for us due to the cost of childcare but, honestly, I think I prefer that our kids got to have a full-time mum when they were small.

It's not a sexist thing, had my wife the higher earning capacity, I'd have happily swapped places with her and been a stay-at-home dad.

Just curious as to what the men of the Gentlemen's Club would regard as the ideal family set-up in modern Ireland.

EDIT: (for gay members, just treat the "she" as your other "he". Too many options to list otherwise!

professore

Having experienced both sides of the coin, both of us worked full time until our second child was born, having a parent at home, who wants to be there, generally speaking, but not always the mother while the kids are younger than 18, is the best setup for everyone involved.

However it's not always financially feasible - but the cost of childcare is so exorbitant here that unless you are earning megabucks the extra income you get from the 2nd person working outside the home will be eaten up by childcare, higher tax rates, usc etc, not to mention the cost of getting to and from work, being better able to organise the house so less takeaways, launderette fees, transport costs etc.

So financially most people are not better off. The kids are far better off though. The years go very fast, and you don't get a second chance, it's a cliché but it's the truth.

Sleepy

My wife was a single mum who worked full-time when I met her so as soon as we knew she was pregnant, it was a given that she'd leave work due to the very issues you mentioned. Given the cost of childcare, the other associated costs of both parents working and the tax credits available to me if she's not working (about €4,350 per annum) she'd have to have been earning a much larger salary to justify remaining working.

Even leaving reality at the door, as long as we're in the position where my salary can support it (and it only just about does) I think I'd rather she was at home with the kids. Even now that they're both in school, I like that they have a parent there to collect them from the school gate, get them to do their homework and share the rest of the day with them until I get back from work. I'm sure there are benefits to having kids in after-school care of some sort, but personally I regards the benefits of being cared for by a parent as out-weighing them.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sleepy

It's a shame that study wasn't better conducted. The extent to which the parents worked would no doubt have a massive influence on the kids: are they doing best when their Mother is working full-on, full-time and the family are far wealthier than they'd be if she stayed at home or are they doing best when she (or her husband) is working part-time or in a more flexible working arrangement. How was such data controlled for wealth etc?

It's an interesting result but it seems to have been a very shallow study.

ancapailldorcha

I'm not sure whether or not I want children but it's something of a moot point given that I'm still single. I would like to be in a relationship though. Relating to children, I do think that it would be better if the mother stays at home but given that I'd be unwilling to sacrifice my career then it'd be hypocritical of me to ask a potential partner to do that. I work long hours so she'd likely be doing more of the work than myself but then I'm fairly happy to stay at home at the weekend so maybe there's be room for balance there...

eviltwin

What works for us is both of us working part time, its not possible at the moment though. I'm doing the full time mother thing at the moment and he's working full time and we're both miserable. I hate being at home and I have the higher earning potential so it doesn't make much sense. He, on the other hand, enjoys it so we're looking to switch places once the school year is back up and running. Our situation has changed a lot over the past 18 yrs we've been parents and we've done a lot of different things at different times depending on what options we had.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sleepy

Took a quick read of the full study (admittedly skimming for the pertinant fact I was looking for - the source data) and, as one might expect from something gender studies related, it falls far below the academic standard one might expect from HBS.

The only question on the source data that was related to the survey respondents parents, their working status or their background in general was as follows:

Did your mother ever work for pay for as long as one year, after you were born and before you were 14?
1=Yes, she worked for pay; 2=No

No questions as to the type of work carried out by the mother.
A single year of paid work during a 14 year period being considered an "employed mother".
No questions about working hours.

No questions as to country / state / religion of origin / family make-up / social status or any other background information to allow any controls for these things. It's an attitudinal survey of the respondents beliefs and their statements about how they live at the time the survey was conducted that in no way gathers enough data on their background or upbringing to make any determination as to what influences contributed to the development of those beliefs or outcomes.

So, unfortunately, it seems to be a case of a group of researchers coming to the conclusions they wanted to find.

To be fair, the primary research wasn't theirs (it was taken from http://www.issp.org) so it's unfair to blame them for the questionnaire design. The extrapolations they derived from such a faulty dataset don't stand up to any modicum of scrutiny however.

pwurple

I think most people would evaluate their own situation as it presents itself. There are far too many variables.


-Expenses, including weighing up future (university/travel for children vs childcare now).

-Current income of both partners, can you afford childcare if you remain working?

-Flexibility of current employment. In some cases it's possible to take a career break and slot right back in where you were. In others, not so much. Some jobs have flexible working hours, some are rigid and unworkable. Some you can go part-time, some it's full time or f-off.

-Location. Are you doing massive commutes? Do you need to move to be nearer schools/sports/facilities? Do you need to FUND this move with more work?

-Quality of life. Do you hate work and miss your children? Or do you get totally drained by being at home and need some work? It's different for different personalities.


I know for myself, I could never give up work. It's not in my nature. My two maternity leave absences, while only lasting 5 months each, were the mentally toughest things I've ever done. I think my husband would have coped better with them tbh. He is more chilled than me though, and we really would have preferred the option to share the mat leave and maybe get a bit more flex in the working hours. But we're doing ok.

aaakev

I work full time and my wife is home with the kids. I know she would like to work sometimes but we both agree and prefer that our kids are raised by one of us and we are lucky that my salary is enough to cover it. She minds her niece too because her parents both work full time which is some income for herself. We only got married this year so next year ill be able to claim her tax credits which will be great for us too.

Sleepy

It makes a big difference aaakev. I know the year we finally got the tax credits was the first in quite some time where one of us could respond positively to a short-notice invitation to go for a few pints. Prior to that, we'd have needed to budget for nights out etc. far more carefully!

Wise Old Elf

We have two kids, currently ages 7 and 3. The 7 year old is (obviously enough) in school during the usual times in Ireland, the 3 year old goes to a creche as we both work.

My wife has, at various times, taken parental leave so that they're not in childcare 5 days a week, and both of them have really looked forward to those days. I don't think my wife would want to be at home full time to be honest, and it was never really an option.
I've done the figures on whether it would be worth one of us not working, and currently it doesn't work out, we'd be financially less well off ( and we're not exactly rolling in it now!). That being said, the childcare is massively expensive on top of a mortgage.

from the point of view of the children's well being, I'd obviously prefer if they had less time in childcare. The creche that both of them attended/attend between age 1 and starting school is a nice one though, a bit more homely, and there's a nice relationship between the women (and it is all women) and the children. They also have a fantastic Montessori teacher for ages 4-5.

next year, my wife will have used all her Parental Leave, so it looks like it will fall to me. I'm hoping to be able to take half days once or twice a week in work, but it will depend on my work circumstances closer to the time.

When they're a little older and both in school, a nanny/au pair looks like an option as well.

VisibleGorilla

Both working, no children.

MrWalsh

Both working, no children and no intentions of having any.

Id like if one of us could work part time. It makes a huge difference to quality of life when one of us is at home at least some of the time to catch up on household chores, have dinners ready etc... I can only imagine this is magnified when you have children.

As things stand we are both out the door before 8am and home close to 7pm. By the time dinner is cooked, eaten and cleaned up after and some daily chores are done its close to 9pm most nights and we are both knackered. Id rather not have to waste my weekend doing bigger household chores such as hoovering, grocery shopping etc because my limited time off is so precious to me.

We have been through periods of redundnacy when one or both of us were not working in recent years and we both agree that it improves quality of life for both of us if one person is at home at least part time.

Unfortunately the recession has left a dent in our family finances what with reduced salaries and carrying the can of negative equity so I cant see one of us being able to work part time anytime soon.

bisounours

One of the concerns that many of my working mother friends have is the gap on their cv if they were to take 3-4 years to take care of the children. When / If they return to the work place, they are put on more junior teams/ tasks and find it harder to identify with their immediate colleagues ( early/ mid thirties parents vs mid twenties who are still enjoying the "good life"

Sleepy

I suppose my real question here is: what would be your ideal rather than what's the best option available to you at present?

Personally, my ideal was always to have one parent at home when the kids are small with that parent then taking on part-time work when they reach school-going age.

In a no-kids situation I'd want an equal position, either both working to max capacity (perhaps when saving to fund a deposit / a bankroll to travel with etc.) or both working part-time and enjoying life. I think if I were working flat out, I'd end up resenting a partner who "wasn't pulling their weight" working part-time. Maybe a balance exists where one could be working flat out and the other working a more relaxed 9 to 5 and taking on the majority of the chores etc as mentioned by MrWalsh though in all honestly in any household with two decent full-time salaries, I think I'd be hiring a cleaner instead of trying to play catch up at the weekends!

MrWalsh

Sleepy wrote: »

Maybe a balance exists where one could be working flat out and the other working a more relaxed 9 to 5 and taking on the majority of the chores etc as mentioned by MrWalsh though in all honestly in any household with two decent full-time salaries, I think I'd be hiring a cleaner instead of trying to play catch up at the weekends!

What do you mean by working flat out - is that different to working full time?

Id like to have a cleaner alright but I just cant justify it!

DoYouEvenLift

Lot of men not wanting kids on here it seems lol


Lold at the 'neither of us would work and we'd live off benefits' option

Sleepy

I'd see the difference between working flat out and working full time as a fairly significant one.

For most, the best job you can get in terms of earning potential will involve long hours, doubly so if you're self-employed. Many, particularly parents, don't want to work long hours so take 9 to 5's that pay less. It's one of the reasons that the public sector is so heavily demographically skewed towards women: because many take these jobs that pay less than they might be able to get in the private sector because the hours are relatively short, tend to have more flexibility and career breaks / term time arrangements are available. All particularly suited to a parent who wants to be a primary care giver and, as women have traditionally carried out this role in Ireland, the positions tend to be more attractive to them.

Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle. I could significantly ramp up my earnings by working in the UK but family reasons mean that moving there isn't an option. I could opt to commute on a weekly basis, coming home to see the family at the weekend and I'd still be adding about 50% to my current take-home but even as the primary earner, I just can't justify missing out on that much of my kids lives while they're still quite young (Mrs Sleepy wouldn't be over-joyed at being left on her own with them 4 nights / 5 days of the week either!). I still work a lot more than 35 hours a week and do a lot of travel to the UK but it's a step back from my "maximum earning potential" option.

MrWalsh

Neither of us would ever be interested in working flat out then, life is just too short for that IMO.

Wise Old Elf

Sleepy wrote: »

Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle. I could significantly ramp up my earnings by working in the UK but family reasons mean that moving there isn't an option. I could opt to commute on a weekly basis, coming home to see the family at the weekend and I'd still be adding about 50% to my current take-home but even as the primary earner, I just can't justify missing out on that much of my kids lives while they're still quite young (Mrs Sleepy wouldn't be over-joyed at being left on her own with them 4 nights / 5 days of the week either!). I still work a lot more than 35 hours a week and do a lot of travel to the UK but it's a step back from my "maximum earning potential" option.

I had a similar opportunity recently, got offered a better job with better medium term pay and significantly better promotional opportunities, but would have meant moving back to Dublin. Doing it with family wasn't really an option, and the other option of living there mid week and coming home at the weekend didn't appeal to me (never mind the additional financial costs), so I guess without realising it, I've become a family man

so I suppose to answer the original question, my ideal would be that both of us would work less than full time and share the family responsibilities, but keep working as well; i.e. one of us would be available every afternoon to collect them from school, and no afterschool creche/childcare required.

aaakev

Sleepy wrote: »

It makes a big difference aaakev. I know the year we finally got the tax credits was the first in quite some time where one of us could respond positively to a short-notice invitation to go for a few pints. Prior to that, we'd have needed to budget for nights out etc. far more carefully!

Id say it was a great feeling to get that freedom back alright! Im lucky to have landed a good job in 2011 after some not so great ones so we were able to get away on 2 holidays last year and pay for the wedding this February but we just found out we are now expecting baby number 3 so the credits and tax back will be coming at just the right time next year!

My hours are great too its 8.30 to 5 so im usually home by 5.30 so plenty of time for playing with the kids and my hobbies. I work a lot on the phone so can go home early the odd time and take paid days off where i can work from home on the ipad and the phone which helps if she is not well or we have a hospital appointment with our eldest who wears glasses or the likes

eviltwin

Sleepy wrote: »

I suppose my real question here is: what would be your ideal rather than what's the best option available to you at present?

Personally, my ideal was always to have one parent at home when the kids are small with that parent then taking on part-time work when they reach school-going age.

In a no-kids situation I'd want an equal position, either both working to max capacity (perhaps when saving to fund a deposit / a bankroll to travel with etc.) or both working part-time and enjoying life. I think if I were working flat out, I'd end up resenting a partner who "wasn't pulling their weight" working part-time. Maybe a balance exists where one could be working flat out and the other working a more relaxed 9 to 5 and taking on the majority of the chores etc as mentioned by MrWalsh though in all honestly in any household with two decent full-time salaries, I think I'd be hiring a cleaner instead of trying to play catch up at the weekends!

My ideal would be we both work part-time from home. We were both at home for nine months when our youngest was a baby and it was the best time of our lives.

aaakev

eviltwin wrote: »

My ideal would be we both work part-time from home. We were both at home for nine months when our youngest was a baby and it was the best time of our lives.

i know a guy who works from home, he got an opportunity to go self employed and took it and is only away a couple of hours a day. great when the kids are small!

Playboy

I'm happy to have my wife at home minding the kids while they are young as I have higher earning potential and what she would earn after tax would barely cover childcare for 2 kids in central London (about £2,400 - £3,000 pm). Once kids go to school then I hope she would seek employment that allows her some flexibility to still be there for the kids when needed. My wife loves being a mom so it works well for us. For me not having to worry about the home and the kids allows me to focus on my career and continue to grow my earning potential.

One eyed Jack

Ideally the relationship I have now works well for us. My wife works at home and I'm self-employed, so I can pretty much dictate where, when, and who I work with (my wife informed me a few years ago that she could never work with me because I'm a bastard to work for! I'm not that bad really :pac:).

I was always working anyway and my wife was pretty much always at home which suited me, but sometimes my wife would feel guilty about feeling like she wasn't "contributing", and because it never bothered me that she was or wasn't employed, I just told her that I couldn't do what I do every day without her doing what she does every day. It's actually true though, and it's pretty noticeable when my wife goes away on holidays, well, the place goes to sh1t and I'm eating out for the week.

We would have liked to have more children alright (initially when we met I was talking about having six children anyway, my wife kinda looked at me sideways :pac:), but with my wife's health not being the best over the years, it's difficult to be able to plan when the time is right because we were a long time trying for our first child. There's definitely much more to planning and having children than merely financial considerations.

I think I was influenced by the fact that both my parents were working in high stress jobs and our home life was, well, 'chaotic' would be putting it mildly, so I didn't want to continue that particular trend. I wanted organisation and order and that's pretty much what I have now.

I don't have everything I wanted, but I do voluntary mentoring with children and I'm a Godparent to a few of my friends children and nephews and nieces so it's kinda like the next best thing really.

Gosh I have no real idea which button to press because the actual answer is a mix of many of them.

For us we have had two children and plan two more over time. And basically we try to maximise every aspect of our lives as best we can. They have their careers - I have mine - we are all invested in the children - and we use forms of childcare from official to family as and when it makes sense. And we are frugal enough as it is so the finances of it are tolerable and we cope well.

We would of course love to dedicate 100% of ourselves to everything but clearly this is not possible. So we seek balance as and where it presents itself and invest the maximum we can into everything we can.

Carlos Orange

Strange there isn't an option for her to work full time while I play the Xbox at home.

pwurple

MrWalsh wrote: »

Id rather not have to waste my weekend doing bigger household chores such as hoovering, grocery shopping etc because my limited time off is so precious to me.

Life Pro Tip: Do your groceries online and hire a cleaner.

We did both of these things way before we had children as we both worked long hours. Still do it. Made a world of difference to our quality of life. 25 quid for a cleaner to clean the house from top to bottom, do all the hoovering and ironing. Life's too short man. I don't think I've been in a supermarket since the late 90's.

MrWalsh

pwurple wrote: »

Life Pro Tip: Do your groceries online and hire a cleaner.

I go to lots of different places for good quality food as well as trading with local farmers for produce so although I could move some of my grocery shopping online Id never be able to move all of it.

Yeah a cleaner, I just cant justify it, 2 of us, small apartment, youd think we could clean up after ourselves eh?

25 quid a week is 25 quid a week more than I have available right now as well unfortunately.

pwurple

MrWalsh wrote: »

I go to lots of different places for good quality food as well as trading with local farmers for produce so although I could move some of my grocery shopping online Id never be able to move all of it.

That's not quite the drudgery of a groceries run though is it? We do a good bit of that too, but it's fun, not a chore!

MrWalsh wrote: »

Yeah a cleaner, I just cant justify it, 2 of us, small apartment, youd think we could clean up after ourselves eh?

25 quid a week is 25 quid a week more than I have available right now as well unfortunately.

Our cleaner didn't come once a week when we didn't have kids... once a month or once a fortnight was fine to do the hoovering and maybe an oven or fridge clean. Bit of ironing.

Just saying there are options if all of your (very limited) free time is being taken up by chores because you both work full time. At some point you have to wonder what the heck you are even working for if you still feel like your quality of life is rubbish at the weekend.

MrWalsh

pwurple wrote: »

At some point you have to wonder what the heck you are even working for if you still feel like your quality of life is rubbish at the weekend.

I do wonder that, all the time. I completely feel that we are being scammed by our government into ever longer hours, taxes, lower rates of pay and a high cost of living.

Our big issue currently is that we are coming out of a period of multiple redundancies between the two of us, and playing catchup on that time, plus both of our jobs are long commutes right now. And both of us study and go to the gym, so there really isnt much free time at all.

Im trying to change this, but until one of us has a bit of time freed up (tbh even 2 hours per week would help!), I think we are stuck for now.

The best period of my adult life was during my redundancy, but it was funded by the redundancy payment!

OneOfThem

All those poll options and still no...

:She'll work all the hours god sends to keep me in 100 euro bottles of Port and organic crunchy peanut butter while I lounge around and look pretty.

... option?

SpaceTime

Suggested extra options:

1) Both partners working in enjoyable jobs and not living frugally. Some people actually do have high income jobs that they don't have to work 'at full capacity' in. Putting lifestyle ahead of income and both partners living well, but not really focusing all that much on 'full capacity'.

2) Both partners being self-employed and working in a family business and sharing any childcare responsibilities.


... You also forgot to make options gender neutral, some couples are two guys these days.

Sleepy

SpaceTime wrote: »

Suggested extra options:

1) Both partners working in enjoyable jobs and not living frugally. Some people actually do have high income jobs that they don't have to work 'at full capacity' in. Putting lifestyle ahead of income and both partners living well, but not really focusing all that much on 'full capacity'.

2) Both partners being self-employed and working in a family business and sharing any childcare responsibilities.


... You also forgot to make options gender neutral, some couples are two guys these days.

I apologise, 1) sounds like such an absolute fantasy to me that I didn't even consider it! I know of very few positions where one can be paid well for a regular 9-5 (especially enjoyable ones!) but fair play to ye if both yourself and your partner have managed to find them!

2) sounds like such an old-fashioned business model I'd almost forgotten it existed! That said, once you're sharing in the childcare responsibilities, neither of you are working to "full capacity" or likely to be working full-time.

And while I framed the question in terms of a Man / Woman and kids as that's the majority, I did at least realise this when submitting the poll and added the edit to my OP:

Sleepy wrote:

EDIT: (for gay members, just treat the "she" as your other "he". Too many options to list otherwise!

SpaceTime

You'd be surprised actually there are a lot of "lifestyle businesses" out there where people are self employed and earning a decent income but not all that driven to push it to the next level.

Some people actually see getting the work-life balance perfect as the aim, not maximising income.

You've also got jobs that are driven by love of the job not the income too. Happens!

We're all different!

SpaceTime

SpaceTime wrote: »

Some people actually see getting the work-life balance perfect as the aim, not maximising income.

I think I might fall somewhere in that bracket. I could be earning a lot more for what I do - mainly by going as a full consultant or solution developer or project manager. But I remain a lowly programmer on lower pay. I do it for a few reasons - some of it enjoyment of the front line work which I would be removed from in "higher" positions - but also because I dictate my hours and they are flexi. So if I put in a 15 hour day as part of my 35 hour week - I can make a long weekend of it or a few short days of it after that.

So I can find some work and home life balance in this. I can spread my week over 7 days or compress it all into 3. Whatever makes sense. And I can then use that freedom to maximize my home time - be it doing exciting and mutually stimulating things with the kids - pampering the girlfriends - or exploring my gardening farming and DIY fetishes.

The hit I take in earning potential for this is not insignificant. But maximizing that earning potential would mean more rigid hours - unwelcome and uncontrollable over time - stress - being on the road and likely in hotels more often - airports and hotel dinners - hands off work as opposed to the front line stuff I like and much more.

So finding that work-life balance is hard - and for many it is at the expense of income and having to be relatively frugal - but it is a cost I pay quite willingly for a few reasons.

aaakev

Deleted User wrote: »

girlfriends

Nice:cool::P

MrWalsh

Completely agree re work life balance. I'd never be happy doing the full capacity described here by some. Drive me to an early grave!

Mister Vain

I want a relationship I'm happy with. Work doesn't really come into it.

Sleepy

I'd say I work to the maximum capacity I can reasonably do without being an absentee father. I often have to bring the laptop home in the evening, go through periods of regular business travel (I've been away a minimum of two nights a fortnight since January this year) but if I'm in the country, I'm home in time to have dinner with the family and have some time with the kids before tucking them into bed with a bedtime story. As my other half only works part-time (childminding a few days a week), I couldn't really drop back from this level of work commitment without leaving us fairly vulnerable financially. We're far from well-off as it is.

I could earn far more as an independent contractor working in the UK but I'm not prepared to be an absentee father and our family circumstances don't allow us to emigrate (my step-son's Dad lives in Dublin).

I'm surprised at your statement of many making decent salaries out of "lifestyle businesses" SpaceTime. Most of these I've come across tend to be the partners of people with very successful careers that are playing at being Photographers, Bakers, Yogis etc. It may just be the area I'm living in but there would be a lot of this type of "businesses" in Clontarf where the mammies at the school gates run these kind of things between their morning lattes with the girls and their afternoons of dropping the kids here, there and everywhere. I can't see how most of them could be genuinely described as businesses as often they wouldn't cover their costs (e.g. the camera equipment having been purchased by funds not derived from the business etc.). Perhaps you're referring to something else though? I know tattoo artists can make a very good living if they've got the talent and that could probably be described as a "lifestyle business" too?