Liable for VAT

fliball123

Hi all,

Having some renovations done to the house. The builder tells me he can keep the cost down by not declaring all the money paid saving on VAT..The job cost 60k and he has it down at 10k. Now he is acting the clown with regard to finishing the work. I have the quote/estimate that he was working off with his company number/vat number on it he has the amount of VAT he is paying but the full cost of the job and some of the payments I have made.. So the question is this if I rat him out who is obliged to pay the VAT is it me or is it him.

martinn123

fliball123 wrote: »

Hi all,

Having some renovations done to the house. The builder tells me he can keep the cost down by not declaring all the money paid saving on VAT..The job cost 60k and he has it down at 10k. Now he is acting the clown with regard to finishing the work. I have the quote/estimate that he was working off with his company number/vat number on it he has the amount of VAT he is paying but the full cost of the job and some of the payments I have made.. So the question is this if I rat him out who is obliged to pay the VAT is it me or is it him.

You should have registered the job, under the Home Renovation Initiative, allowing you to reclaim the VAT as a Tax Credit, over the next two years.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/hri/index.html

fliball123

martinn123 wrote: »

You should have registered the job, under the Home Renovation Initiative, allowing you to reclaim the VAT as a Tax Credit, over the next two years.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/hri/index.html

Well this is part of the problem we need the VAT details off this guy in order to do so. As stated I just need a bit of stick to beat this guy up with in order for to get this and other certs such as an Engineers certificate to sign off all works including foundations, structure & steels. He has done a Houdini on me and is saying he is coming out to do work and never arrives. As stated the job is 60k worth of a job you can only claim 30k so by letting him only declare the 10k we were saving about 8k off the job. But I need to know if this i brought to the tax man who has to pay the VAT is it me or is it him?

adrianw

You agreed to engage in the scam to defraud the exchequer of tax revenues from VAT and other taxes so you cannot exactly take the higher morale ground.

if you do 'rat' him out, he will just request you pay the full amount of what the bill would have been if fully declared.

fliball123

adrianw wrote: »

You agreed to engage in the scam to defraud the exchequer of tax revenues from VAT and other taxes so you cannot exactly take the higher morale ground.

if you do 'rat' him out, he will just request you pay the full amount of what the bill would have been if fully declared.

I am not taking the high ground on it. The thing is he can request all he wants I wont be giving the guy another penny but I take it that I dont have to pay the tax and by rating him out not only will it make you feel better about the situation but it means I dont have to pay the VAT I am not registered to pay VAT as I am not a company

So as I say I am simply asking who legally has the obligation to pay in this scenario as if the guy told me it would cost me 73/74k I would not of proceeded with the job.

adrianw

I do not believe it is possible to provide an answer.

The basis for any legal case is - the injured party seeking redress must come with clean hands (He who is without sin throw the first stone and all that lark.)

I'd try and settle it privately, you may end up being prosecuted for assisting in tax evasion.

fliball123

adrianw wrote: »

I do not believe it is possible to provide an answer.

The basis for any legal case is - the injured party seeking redress must come with clean hands (He who is without sin throw the first stone and all that lark.)

I'd try and settle it privately, you may end up being prosecuted for assisting in tax evasion.

As I state I would not of gone through with the job if I was quoted the extra 12k ..Its his business as far as I know to pay the appropriate tax

adrianw

fliball123 wrote: »

As I state I would not of gone through with the job if I was quoted the extra 12k ..Its his business as far as I know to pay the appropriate tax

I'm not sure why you asked the question when you are unwilling to accept any answer other than the one you want.

Yes, he is responsible for paying VAT on the fee agreed. If you approach Revenue and say the VAT declared is false, they will ask for proof.

What are you going to show them? emails which show you were happy to defraud Revenue until relations turned sour?

martinn123

fliball123 wrote: »

As I state I would not of gone through with the job if I was quoted the extra 12k ..Its his business as far as I know to pay the appropriate tax

You are all over the place here with your figures.

Initally you stated the estimate was 60K, Including or Plus VAT??
So that's either 52800 + Vat
or 60,000 plus 8100 VAT

You decided to enter a Contract for 10.000 same question, including VAT or Plus VAT, and you paid him that amount.

Now you are unhappy with the work, or its not finished and you want to talk about another 50K for which you have no Contract, no receipt, and presumably you did not write him a cheque.

I pointed out the HRI scheme where you could have done this properly, and gotten a majority of the VAT back.

So where's the ''extra'' 12K you mention in your last post.

fliball123

martinn123 wrote: »

You are all over the place here with your figures.

Initally you stated the estimate was 60K, Including or Plus VAT??
So that's either 52800 + Vat
or 60,000 plus 8100 VAT

You decided to enter a Contract for 10.000 same question, including VAT or Plus VAT, and you paid him that amount.

Now you are unhappy with the work, or its not finished and you want to talk about another 50K for which you have no Contract, no receipt, and presumably you did not write him a cheque.

I pointed out the HRI scheme where you could have done this properly, and gotten a majority of the VAT back.

So where's the ''extra'' 12K you mention in your last post.

Sorry let me clarify the job in total is for 60k ..he said he would only put 10k down to save on the VAT, now he is not bothering to finish the job. I may have miscalculated its 13% of the other 50k which your right is about 5/6k not 11k.

I know if this goes to court it would be kicked out but can I fook him over via the VAT, I would not of gone ahead with this deal if the appropriate amount was down for VAT it would have been too expensive so when he made it less expensive I said ok.

So my question remains unanswered if I go to the tax office I have the quote with the details of money paid, his company details , VAT number..If I go in and say I would not of started the job if he charged the full VAT and decided he would cut out the VAT for some of the job, who is on the lamb for the remainder of the VAT, as I say as far as I am concerned that iss his business?

martinn123

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry let me clarify the job in total is for 60k ..he said he would only put 10k down to save on the VAT, now he is not bothering to finish the job. I may have miscalculated its 13% of the other 50k which your right is about 5/6k not 11k.

I know if this goes to court it would be kicked out but can I fook him over via the VAT, I would not of gone ahead with this deal if the appropriate amount was down for VAT it would have been too expensive so when he made it less expensive I said ok.

So my question remains unanswered if I go to the tax office I have the quote with the details of money paid, his company details , VAT number..If I go in and say I would not of started the job if he charged the full VAT and decided he would cut out the VAT for some of the job, who is on the lamb for the remainder of the VAT, as I say as far as I am concerned that iss his business?

Perhaps,.......... he quoted you 60K including VAT
All the monies you have paid him, have gone through his bank, and his books, and he has accounted fully for his VAT liabilities

Perhaps you fell for the trick, sure we won't account for the VAT, and you will save a few Grand

If So

He's fine, and you look a bit silly, as the HRI was available.

fliball123

martinn123 wrote: »

Perhaps,.......... he quoted you 60K including VAT
All the monies you have paid him, have gone through his bank, and his books, and he has accounted fully for his VAT liabilities

Perhaps you fell for the trick, sure we won't account for the VAT, and you will save a few Grand

If So

He's fine, and you look a bit silly, as the HRI was available.

Really so I have a quote which came through using his literature his and on the aynex.com website it has his company name, number and his VAT number..

In this quote there are details of the pricing including the VAT on 10k which is 1.3k but the price on the list of items in the job add up to 60k. It also has details of the cash I paid him on here we also have texts from his phone about the monies paid to him. Now I have paid the majority of the money in cash to his hand. Like I say I would not of gone with the job if I was paying another 5/6k It was too much. If he decides he wants to bring the price down and put that haircut on the VAT he pays as far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with me.

Just to be clear I have 30k built up in other works in the house which is already assigned to the Home Renovation scheme so I cannot claim any more back regardless on this VAT

Anyways guys I am not looking to fight with any of you on here I am just looking for advice. I need the answer to that question that I asked

martinn123

fliball123 wrote: »

Really so I have a quote which came through using his literature his and on the aynex.com website it has his company name, number and his VAT number..

In this quote there are details of the pricing including the VAT on 10k which is 1.3k but the price on the list of items in the job add up to 60k. It also has details of the cash I paid him on here we also have texts from his phone about the monies paid to him. Now I have paid the majority of the money in cash to his hand. Like I say I would not of gone with the job if I was paying another 5/6k It was too much. If he decides he wants to bring the price down and put that haircut on the VAT he pays as far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with me.

Just to be clear I have 30k built up in other works in the house which is already assigned to the Home Renovation scheme so I cannot claim any more back regardless on this VAT

Anyways guys I am not looking to fight with any of you on here I am just looking for advice. I need the answer to that question that I asked

I'm Out.

relax carry on

fliball123 wrote: »

Really so I have a quote which came through using his literature his and on the aynex.com website it has his company name, number and his VAT number..

In this quote there are details of the pricing including the VAT on 10k which is 1.3k but the price on the list of items in the job add up to 60k. It also has details of the cash I paid him on here we also have texts from his phone about the monies paid to him. Now I have paid the majority of the money in cash to his hand. Like I say I would not of gone with the job if I was paying another 5/6k It was too much. If he decides he wants to bring the price down and put that haircut on the VAT he pays as far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with me.

Just to be clear I have 30k built up in other works in the house which is already assigned to the Home Renovation scheme so I cannot claim any more back regardless on this VAT

Anyways guys I am not looking to fight with any of you on here I am just looking for advice. I need the answer to that question that I asked

I would imagine that if you popped into a Revenue office with that story the officer you spoke with would be looking for advise from the Revenue Solicitors section on prosecuting both of you tax evasion. You knowingly engaged in an attempted fraud. There is a precedent within the Paye regs regarding recouping taxes owed from an individual when they knowingly participated in a tax fraud with their employer.

fliball123

relax carry on wrote: »

I would imagine that if you popped into a Revenue office with that story the officer you spoke with would be looking for advise from the Revenue Solicitors section on prosecuting both of you tax evasion. You knowingly engaged in an attempted fraud. There is a precedent within the Paye regs regarding recouping taxes owed from an individual when they knowingly participated in a tax fraud with their employer.

I would not be paying VAT on this.. Like I say if he chooses to cut down the cost by choosing to cut out the TAX man ..that is really no concern of mine. I would not of started the job at the full cost..He offered a discount and how he makes up for that discount is his business?

daheff

I think it really boils down to did he quote you a figure plus vat or not?


If he quoted you +VAT, then when he said he'd reduce the amount owed by you, you would be entitled to assume that was inclusive of VAT. In this case I dont believe you would have any issues if you went to revenue and advised them of what you suspect (and I use this word strongly & advisedly) him to be up to.


If he quoted you a figure without vat (as builders generally do), and then he said he'd charge you less by reducing the amount of vat owed on the job, then by agreeing you'd be hanging yourself if you went to the Revenue (IMO)


my view is dodgy builders/tradesmen etc are dodgy...they dont care who they screw over - you ,the taxman or the next person

fliball123

daheff wrote: »

I think it really boils down to did he quote you a figure plus vat or not?


If he quoted you +VAT, then when he said he'd reduce the amount owed by you, you would be entitled to assume that was inclusive of VAT. In this case I dont believe you would have any issues if you went to revenue and advised them of what you suspect (and I use this word strongly & advisedly) him to be up to.


If he quoted you a figure without vat (as builders generally do), and then he said he'd charge you less by reducing the amount of vat owed on the job, then by agreeing you'd be hanging yourself if you went to the Revenue (IMO)


my view is dodgy builders/tradesmen etc are dodgy...they dont care who they screw over - you ,the taxman or the next person

He Quoted VAT on 10k but the job and the list of work done within the job is listed in th quote and it shows work coming to a cost of 60k

relax carry on

fliball123 wrote: »

I would not be paying VAT on this.. Like I say if he chooses to cut down the cost by choosing to cut out the TAX man ..that is really no concern of mine. I would not of started the job at the full cost..He offered a discount and how he makes up for that discount is his business?

Did he at any point say I will do the work for cash, no vat or something to that affect? Your previous posts seem to indicate that you were aware that he would not be charging Vat and charging you a cash in hand price. You seem to be aware of the vat issues here considering half the job is done under the home improvement vat scheme.

Also it's an interesting general question regarding the facilitation of tax evasion by individuals.

martinn123

Well this thread is still running, so I will step back in, I opted out once you fessed up to the Cash Payments.

It's clear from your original and first few posts that you willingly participated in VAT avoidance.

You appear to have paid over to the Builder Approx 50k in cash to facilitate this avoidance of Tax due.
Now that you have fallen out with the Builder you are changing the emphasis, and looking for a way to dump him in the Revenue Shyte.

You are liable for VAT at 13.5% on monies expended on home improvements.

I would assume the builder could not hide 50 K so most if not all has gone through his books, he had materials to buy and wages so his net exposure to an Audit discrepancy is much less than yours.
You are not a Business but you are liable To pay VAT on monies spent.

The fact that you are aware of the HRI scheme and have availed of it to it's maximum, suggests you knew exactly the score, and sought to avoid relevant Tax

Contact Revenue, and expect little sympathy from them. Maybe even a little retribution.

Mr. Incognito

fliball123 wrote: »

So my question remains unanswered if I go to the tax office I have the quote with the details of money paid, his company details , VAT number..If I go in and say I would not of started the job if he charged the full VAT and decided he would cut out the VAT for some of the job, who is on the lamb for the remainder of the VAT, as I say as far as I am concerned that iss his business?

Dear Revenue.

I engaged a builder. To get a lower quote we agreed to book the job at 10k instead of 50k to defraud you out of VAT.

I was happy to save the 13.5 % vat cost on the 40k difference.

I paid him cash. He gave me a vat receipt for 10k.

I am unhappy with the job. Please prosecute the builder for vat fraud.

Joe victim.



Dear Joe victim.

Thank you for informing us of suspected VAT fraud. We take this seriously. Please find enclosed father of four recently given four years fornot declaring vat.
http://www.thejournal.ie/newspaper-delivery-man-sentenced-2188458-Jun2015/

Please find enclosed summons for you and said builder to appear in court for vat fraud.

Yours faithfully,
The revenue.

You lay down with dogs, you rise with fleas.

fliball123

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Dear Revenue.

I engaged a builder. To get a lower quote we agreed to book the job at 10k instead of 50k to defraud you out of VAT.

I was happy to save the 13.5 % vat cost on the 40k difference.

I paid him cash. He gave me a vat receipt for 10k.

I am unhappy with the job. Please prosecute the builder for vat fraud.

Joe victim.



Dear Joe victim.

Thank you for informing us of suspected VAT fraud. We take this seriously. Please find enclosed father of four recently given four years fornot declaring vat.
http://www.thejournal.ie/newspaper-delivery-man-sentenced-2188458-Jun2015/

Please find enclosed summons for you and said builder to appear in court for vat fraud.

Yours faithfully,
The revenue.

You lay down with dogs, you rise with fleas.

Is thiis article not prosecuting the company not paying VAT? I dont have a VAT company number so how can I be expected to pay VAT. I am not looking at the moral side of this I am looking at it from a legal standpoint. No one here yet has shown me anything where the customer paying the money gets into trouble?

martinn123

fliball123 wrote: »

I dont have a VAT company number so how can I be expected to pay VAT.

You don't really understand this VAT lark, everyone pays VAT, you don't require a VAT number, it's included in the price you pay.

Companies COLLECT VAT, and pay it over to Revenue

As you have been advised, you conspired with the builder so you would not PAY the VAT,and he would not COLLECT it.

You are both liable,

Mr. Incognito

fliball123 wrote: »

Is thiis article not prosecuting the company not paying VAT? I dont have a VAT company number so how can I be expected to pay VAT. I am not looking at the moral side of this I am looking at it from a legal standpoint. No one here yet has shown me anything where the customer paying the money gets into trouble?

Wow.

You really do not get this do you.

It's fraud. Fraud is a crime. Check out Section 10 for false accounting. The max is 10 years in jail.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/

That's just the criminal statute. Revenue can prosecute you under the VAT Act also for being involved in a scheme to defraud Revenue by knowingly accepting doctored VAT invoices and being complicit in their preparation.

fliball123

ok all thanks for the advise