Garda-Prostitute rape case MOD NOTE Post 1

Muahahaha · 13-07-2015 10:14am #1

Anyone else find this case strange? A garda (somewhere in the midlands) goes to a brothel and arrests two prostitutes for running a brothel. He then later goes back to the brothel and has sex with one of them. She claims he raped her and the other prostitute says she witnessed the rape. The Garda admits to having sex with the prostitute he had earlier arrested for prostitution but he says the sex was consensual.

GSOC then launch an investigation and a file is sent to the DPP. The DPP direct that no prosecution is to be brought. The Garda Authorities are informed and the Garda in question has to pay a fine, we're not told how much. He still remains in his job.

From the GSOC report, published here http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/cases/case_sum9.html

The investigation, carried out by a GSOC senior investigating officer, involved taking statements from the two women and from the garda concerned. The first complainant’s statement said that she felt compelled to have sexual intercourse with the garda concerned because he was a member of An Garda Síochána involved in a prosecution which led to her conviction for an offence and she feared further prosecution. Evidence showed that the garda had been involved in the prosecution of the two women. The garda’s statement said that the sexual intercourse had occurred subsequent to the arrest, but that it was consensual. The records of duty relevant to the garda were contradictory as regards his actual hours of duty, so it was unclear whether he was on- or off-duty at the time of the act.

Isn't there something a bit strange here. Even if we leave the rape allegation aside am I the only one who finds arresting two prostitutes for prostitution and then going back and engaging in prostitution with them is hypocrisy of the highest order? Surely after arresting the two women and then going back to have sex with one of them had to have been (at a minimum) sex under duress?

Mod: rape jokes are completely forbidden. Cards and bans can be handed out if rape jokes are made.

somesoldiers · 13-07-2015 10:20am

Maybe she only claimed rape because his cheque bounced

Mod: banned

13-07-2015 10:21am

Not even hypocrisy, but downright stupid. Why on Earth would you willingly put yourself in danger, especially when these are people who now have something against you. I don't know what to think about the rape allegation - maybe it did happen, but there's also a slim chance that they made up the allegation to tarnish and destroy this Garda.

But, in fairness, if you're that stupid ...

pickarooney · 13-07-2015 10:22am

It's rape every day of the week. Ludicrous that he's not sacked and jailed.

kneemos · 13-07-2015 10:23am

pickarooney wrote: »

It's rape every day of the week. Ludicrous that he's not sacked and jailed.

Not on Sundays.

eviltwin · 13-07-2015 10:24am

Its well known that brothels in Ireland are able to remain open because gardai are often the best customers.

seamus · 13-07-2015 10:30am

Isn't there something a bit strange here. Even if we leave the rape allegation aside am I the only one who finds arresting two prostitutes for prostitution and then going back and engaging in prostitution with them is hypocrisy of the highest order? Surely after arresting the two women and then going back to have sex with one of them had to have been (at a minimum) sex under duress?

Gardai's role is to enforce the law, not determine the morality of it. Arresting someone for prostitution and then going back and having sex with them isn't necessarily hypocritical if the Gardai has no moral objection to prostitution. We have no indication that the Garda hired the woman, just that he had sex with her, so no actual crime committed in that regard.

Tough call overall. Most likely the DPP felt that the two women, both of whom had a specific reason to want to "injure" the accused Garda, would not make credible witnesses on the stand and there would be no way a prosecution was going to succeed.

There was no question over whether sex had occurred, just whether it was rape. So it's very much one word against another, no physical or forensic evidence to fall back on.

pickarooney · 13-07-2015 10:40am

With an arresting officer in a position of power over an arrestee there's no question of consent. It can't be given, ergo it's rape. I don't see any grey area here.

Ash.J.Williams · 13-07-2015 10:46am

A bunch of gardai called to a "brothel" after their xmas doo in limerick...and the apt was no longer a brothel and a bloke was living there....it all ended up in a fist fight between the gardai and the bloke in the apartment!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/three-gardai-involved-in-alleged-brothel-bustup-at-christmas-party-29840776.html

Egginacup · 13-07-2015 10:47am

pickarooney wrote: »

With an arresting officer in a position of power over an arrestee there's no question of consent. It can't be given, ergo it's rape. I don't see any grey area here.

He isn't in a position of power if he's not on duty surely.

seamus · 13-07-2015 10:48am

pickarooney wrote: »

With an arresting officer in a position of power over an arrestee there's no question of consent. It can't be given, ergo it's rape. I don't see any grey area here.

According to the link above, the prostitute was not under arrest at the time that the sexual encounter occurred, therefore the question of consent is wide open. The Garda was not a position of power over the woman at the time.

eviltwin · 13-07-2015 10:50am

seamus wrote: »

According to the link above, the prostitute was not under arrest at the time that the sexual encounter occurred, therefore the question of consent is wide open. The Garda was not a position of power over the woman at the time.

Rape takes many forms. Did he hold her down? Probably not but did he use his position to coerce her into having sex with him against her will...possibly.

Ash.J.Williams · 13-07-2015 10:50am

Egginacup wrote: »

He isn't in a position of power if he's not on duty surely.

it shouldnt matter if he's on duty or not...he still maintains the position of power over the girl as he arrested her earlier. As far as she is concerned he is a cop...

Subcomandante Marcos · 13-07-2015 10:51am

seamus wrote: »

Gardai's role is to enforce the law, not determine the morality of it. Arresting someone for prostitution and then going back and having sex with them isn't necessarily hypocritical if the Gardai has no moral objection to prostitution. We have no indication that the Garda hired the woman, just that he had sex with her, so no actual crime committed in that regard.

Tough call overall. Most likely the DPP felt that the two women, both of whom had a specific reason to want to "injure" the accused Garda, would not make credible witnesses on the stand and there would be no way a prosecution was going to succeed.

There was no question over whether sex had occurred, just whether it was rape. So it's very much one word against another, no physical or forensic evidence to fall back on.

That's fine and all but the Gardai's job means that he, more than anyone, has a duty to not break laws, even if he didn't rape her, he broke the law by paying for sex. At the very least he should be prosecuted for that.

Instead we have the usual protectionism of Gardai.

nokia69 · 13-07-2015 10:51am

eviltwin wrote: »

Its well known that brothels in Ireland are able to remain open because gardai are often the best customers.

nonsense

seamus · 13-07-2015 10:52am

eviltwin wrote: »

Rape takes many forms. Did he hold her down? Probably not but did he use his position to coerce her into having sex with him against her will...possibly.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

it shouldnt matter if he's on duty or not...he still maintains the position of power over the girl as he arrested her earlier. As far as she is concerned he is a cop...

Correct in both cases.

Hence why it's not black and white. Can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no consent? The DPP don't seem to think so, and I can understand why.

pickarooney · 13-07-2015 10:52am

seamus wrote: »

According to the link above, the prostitute was not under arrest at the time that the sexual encounter occurred, therefore the question of consent is wide open. The Garda was not a position of power over the woman at the time.

No different to a schoolteacher shagging a pupil on a Saturday.

eviltwin · 13-07-2015 10:52am

nokia69 wrote: »

nonsense

Far from it. Gardai are only human after all.

Gatling · 13-07-2015 10:53am

Or this is a simple case of brothel keeper getting one back on the Gardai for the earlier raid

seamus · 13-07-2015 10:53am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

he broke the law by paying for sex.

He didn't. Or at least we have no evidence that he did.

seamus · 13-07-2015 10:53am

pickarooney wrote: »

No different to a schoolteacher shagging a pupil on a Saturday.

If the pupil is over the age of consent, has a crime been committed?

Nope. The teacher will likely be fired, but they won't be convicted of any crime. Likewise, this Garda was reprimanded and fined, apparently.

13-07-2015 10:54am

somesoldiers wrote: »

Maybe she only claimed rape because his cheque bounced

Yeah, thats hilarious. Well done you.

A person in authority over someone who has sex with them, is at the absolute minimum abusing their authority. I'm pretty sure there has to be guidelines about appropriate contact with people in the system, especially if you're the arresting officer, or one of them.

The possibility that he raped her is as ugly and corrupt as it gets, if true.

I can't believe the punishment amounted to just a fine.

nokia69 · 13-07-2015 10:56am

eviltwin wrote: »

Far from it. Gardai are only human after all.

I never said they don't visit brothels

you seem to be claiming some kind of conspiracy where the Gardai ignore the law because they have an interest in breaking it themselves

there have plenty of efforts to close down brothels

Jotunheim · 13-07-2015 11:00am

Egginacup wrote: »

He isn't in a position of power if he's not on duty surely.

Given that his primary contact with her was as a member of AGS, there is no way he can revert to being a member of the public for the purposes of somehow surrendering the power their first contact provided him. She couldn't somehow unknow that he was a Garda and he knew that when he returned.

Gatling · 13-07-2015 11:00am

Maybe a Vow of celibacy might be required because any garda that has consentual sex is always in the position of authority ??

pickarooney · 13-07-2015 11:01am

seamus wrote: »

If the pupil is over the age of consent, has a crime been committed?

Nope. The teacher will likely be fired, but they won't be convicted of any crime. Likewise, this Garda was reprimanded and fined, apparently.

I'm not 100% sure about Ireland but it's definitely a prosecutable crime in the UK and has been since the turn of the centiry.

eviltwin · 13-07-2015 11:04am

nokia69 wrote: »

I never said they don't visit brothels

you seem to be claiming some kind of conspiracy where the Gardai ignore the law because they have an interest in breaking it themselves

there have plenty of efforts to close down brothels

Don't be so naive. Its an open secret that some brothels are able to operate freely, everyone knows what they are and what goes on and they remain open because gardai use the services. The sooner we make prostitution legal so this kind of abuse can't happen the better.

Ash.J.Williams · 13-07-2015 11:06am

Gatling wrote: »

Maybe a Vow of celibacy might be required because any garda that has consentual sex is always in the position of authority ??

If a garda arrests a sex worker for sex work, and then returns to the scene and avails of sex with the same girl, then it's not consensual. it's abuse of position, or else he was tricked. Either way it's a f** up.

Jotunheim · 13-07-2015 11:08am

Gatling wrote: »

Maybe a Vow of celibacy might be required because any garda that has consentual sex is always in the position of authority ??

Or they could just use basic sense and stay away from people they arrest and prosecute and we won't need your reductio ad absurdem straw man.

nokia69 · 13-07-2015 11:19am

eviltwin wrote: »

Don't be so naive. Its an open secret that some brothels are able to operate freely, everyone knows what they are and what goes on and they remain open because gardai use the services. The sooner we make prostitution legal so this kind of abuse can't happen the better.

well the man in the pub told me its an open secret that you're wrong

seamus · 13-07-2015 11:37am

pickarooney wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure about Ireland but it's definitely a prosecutable crime in the UK and has been since the turn of the centiry.

Even then, only if the pupil is under 18. Relationships between teachers and pupils where everyone is over 18, are not illegal in the UK.

I'm not disagreeing the point that there's a authoritarian relationship there which can be mirrored in this case, but that just adds greyness to the question of consent.
Being in a position of authority over another person does not automatically mean any sexual conduct between you is non-consensual.

Paramite Pie · 13-07-2015 11:45am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

If a garda arrests a sex worker for sex work, and then returns to the scene and avails of sex with the same girl, then it's not consensual. it's abuse of position, or else he was tricked. Either way it's a f** up.

It's horrible and certainly an abuse of power. We often think of rape as physical aggression/co-coercion but it can also be manipulation or even blackmail. The guys a creep.

However, it's also possible that the arrested woman offered her "services" to try & get the charges against her dropped. Even if that were the case, the Garda should still be fired and both of them charged as that's a whole other criminal offense!

In all honesty, maybe Brothel's shouldn't be illegal. I'd never go to one but it's better to regulate and keep those involved safe.

fatknacker · 13-07-2015 12:02pm

If arresting women makes his dick hard, then he probably should not be doing that job.

Samaris · 13-07-2015 12:02pm

"The first complainant’s statement said that she felt compelled to have sexual intercourse with the garda concerned because he was a member of An Garda Síochána involved in a prosecution which led to her conviction for an offence and she feared further prosecution. Evidence showed that the garda had been involved in the prosecution of the two women. The garda’s statement said that the sexual intercourse had occurred subsequent to the arrest, but that it was consensual. The records of duty relevant to the garda were contradictory as regards his actual hours of duty, so it was unclear whether he was on- or off-duty at the time of the act."

That bit in bold seems highly dubious.

It is a he-said, she-said, but at absolute best, it was a really, unbelievably stupid and callous thing to do. He must have known that he was placing her in a position of coercion if he initiated it and if she initiated it (by say, suggesting he called over later) then it was still really stupid and leaving himself open for the complaint. It sounds like this guy isn't exactly a sterling member of the service, although I can see why the prosecution couldn't really go any further, it's unprovable either way.

Jjiipp79 · 13-07-2015 12:04pm

The cops give us Fuk all chance so why should we give this rapeist a chance?

Throw the book at the woman beater and illegal asshole eater.

Carlos Orange · 13-07-2015 12:05pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

he broke the law by paying for sex. At the very least he should be prosecuted for that.

Paying for sex isn't a crime in Ireland.

Medusa22 · 13-07-2015 12:07pm

Well it seems that the DPP considered that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute and I can understand that. Having said that though, it is possible that the guard went back to the brothel and paid for consensual sex with the prostitute, however, it is at the very least inappropriate and hypocritical, and I'd imagine that a guard, whether on or off-duty, would be considered in a position of authority over a woman working in a brothel. The man had already arrested her so even if there was no physical force used, the woman could have very understandably felt under pressure to sleep with him, or else face possible arrest again.

Little CuChulainn · 13-07-2015 12:20pm

Medusa22 wrote: »

Well it seems that the DPP considered that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute and I can understand that. Having said that though, it is possible that the guard went back to the brothel and paid for consensual sex with the prostitute, however, it is at the very least inappropriate and hypocritical, and I'd imagine that a guard, whether on or off-duty, would be considered in a position of authority over a woman working in a brothel. The man had already arrested her so even if there was no physical force used, the woman could have very understandably felt under pressure to sleep with him, or else face possible arrest again.

The D.P.P. had all the facts though. It's not that she didn't have the full story, it's that she didn't think it amounted to a crime. It's impossible to say why considering the limited facts available to us. Maybe the Gardas involvement with the prosecution was minimal or ancillary. Maybe there was a lot of time between the prosecution and the subsequent sex. Maybe they had some kind of relationship. Just not possible to make a proper judgement based on the summary released by GSOC. That was most likely their intention.

Garda-Prostitute rape case *MOD NOTE Post 1*

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Garda-Prostitute rape case MOD NOTE Post 1