Riders cutting in too close

outfox

What's the deal with riders overtaking on the right, and then cutting in so close that you are forced into the verge to avoid colliding wheels? It occurs regularly at races, and in the up and over rotation at league races. I can't figure out if such riders are
(a) making a point
(b) trying to eliminate the competition
(c) are idiots and have no idea what's going on behind them.

It's really annoying. At the very least, it messes up your rhythm. At worst, you'll bump wheels, or fall into the verge, or have to brake and get hit from behind, and maybe take out half the group.

Is it OK to yell at such riders to cop the ***k on?
I assume that most of these plonkers have more experience than I do. Some of them are A3.

nak

I'd go with c

Qualitymark

Same thing when you're cycling through the city, very dangerous. People whose brains have been carefully transmuted into muscle.

outfox

I can see why it would happen when commuting, where a large proportion of riders are not club cyclists and have no idea what's going on. But you'd expect better control/manners at races and in leagues.
I was beginning to worry that it was option (a) above. I just couldn't figure out the actual point being made.

stecleary

cycle faster, they wont be able to catch and cut across you then

rollingscone

Qualitymark wrote: »

Same thing when you're cycling through the city, very dangerous. People whose brains have been carefully transmuted into muscle.

I see constant harebrained overtaking along the canal every morning. People crowding past with no consideration for what will happen if the person they're skimming panics and pushes them into traffic.

Qualitymark

stecleary wrote: »

cycle faster, they wont be able to catch and cut across you then

I cycle at a safe speed for myself and other road users.

Idleater

stecleary wrote: »

cycle faster, they wont be able to catch and cut across you then

In a race (as suggested by the op) if you want someone to do some work, slow down when they go past. Nothing disrupts up and overs more than someone not slowing "on the left" and leaving the riders coming up the outside having to pedal even harder to try to pass.

Amprodude

outfox wrote: »

I can see why it would happen when commuting, where a large proportion of riders are not club cyclists and have no idea what's going on. But you'd expect better control/manners at races and in leagues.
I was beginning to worry that it was option (a) above. I just couldn't figure out the actual point being made.

Solution: Get your ass out of the 3rd quarter of the bunch and move up to top 15.

Brian?

In a race you shoud be knocking off your pace as they draw level and allow them in, it's how working in a group is done.

I don't know about commuting.

Qualitymark

Brian? wrote: »

In a race you shoud be knocking off your pace as they draw level and allow them in, it's how working in a group is done.

I don't know about commuting.

Bringing my brain back half a century to running, not cycling, races, I remember that the correct mode for overtaking was to draw level, then go forward about four feet, then move in, giving the person you were overtaking a chance to catch up or settle back. I'd assume the same (only a longer move forward, perhaps eight feet) would be courteous and safe in cycle racing? Unless there are new, Katniss-style rules.

sbs2010

Brian? wrote: »

In a race you shoud be knocking off your pace as they draw level and allow them in, it's how working in a group is done. .

But if you are the lead rider and you slow to let a guy go ahead then you're causing a problem for everybody behind, no?

Surely it's up to the guy overtaking to pass at a higher pace and cut in and then slow to to bunch's pace.

Full disclosure: I've no idea about racing;)

km991148

Qualitymark wrote: »

Same thing when you're cycling through the city, very dangerous. People whose brains have been carefully transmuted into muscle.

This does my head in.. I reckon racing is a different mentality (never raced so don't know..) so probably a, b or c could apply in a race

Was filtering the other day and went to turn right to into a sidestreet and crapped my self when there was some kamakaze 1/4 inch off my saddle to the right ("blind spot" area if in a car) barely getting past, but impatient enough to try get round- Thankfully was doing a bit of "mirror-signal-maneuver" - If I just went for it there would have been a nasty bone cruncher..

Qualitymark

km991148 wrote: »

This does my head in.. I reckon racing is a different mentality (never raced so don't know..) so probably a, b or c could apply in a race

Was filtering the other day and went to turn right to into a sidestreet and crapped my self when there was some kamakaze 1/4 inch off my saddle to the right ("blind spot" area if in a car) barely getting past, but impatient enough to try get round- Thankfully was doing a bit of "mirror-signal-maneuver" - If I just went for it there would have been a nasty bone cruncher..

Yup, that's what I'm talking about - complicated by the fool then screeching to a halt at lights a foot ahead of you so you careen into him/her.

km991148

Qualitymark wrote: »

Yup, that's what I'm talking about - complicated by the fool then screeching to a halt at lights a foot ahead of you so you careen into him/her.

ugh.. fckrs..

Like using public roads isnt hard driving/cycling are pretty much the same skills.. and most of the skills revolve around the global rule.. don't be a (unt**.. read the road around you.. take off yer over ear closed back noise cancelling headphones off and get on with it..

**Again.. in ref to the op's post.. I have never raced and I guess you may choose to exercise a bit of (untishness to get ahead?..!

outfox

sbs2010 wrote: »

But if you are the lead rider and you slow to let a guy go ahead then you're causing a problem for everybody behind, no?

Surely it's up to the guy overtaking to pass at a higher pace and cut in and then slow to to bunch's pace.

That's the way I thought it worked, and indeed that's the way it works on club training rides. This then keeps the pace of the group constant.
Live and learn I guess.

Brian?

sbs2010 wrote: »

But if you are the lead rider and you slow to let a guy go ahead then you're causing a problem for everybody behind, no?

Surely it's up to the guy overtaking to pass at a higher pace and cut in and then slow to to bunch's pace.

Full disclosure: I've no idea about racing;)

If the riders behind have to constantly up the speed to get to the front, the group will split to pieces as the pace goes up. Sometimes this is desirable, but not always.

If you want to work together, the lead rider drops the pace as he's passed, sits in and matches the new pace set by the riders ahead. It means you recover from your turn on the front as you move back around the the group. If you work this way the group stays together and works better as everyone gets a rest and stays fresher for their pull at the front.

If you want to drop riders you accelerate hard past the lead man, increasing the pace of the whole group and possibly causing splits.

Brian?

outfox wrote: »

That's the way I thought it worked, and indeed that's the way it works on club training rides. This then keeps the pace of the group constant.
Live and learn I guess.

See my other answer, if the guy dropping off the front doesn't slow marginally the speed of the group isn't constant. It's getting faster as the rider coming through has to increase the pace to get by. Think about it, the lead rider is doing 30km/h. In order to pass him, you need to do >30km/h so when you hit the front the pace has increased to >30km/h for everyone following you. So now everyone has to do >30km/h to keep on, whereas if the lead rider slows to drop off everyone maintains 30km/h.

In my experience, ego kicks in and the rider coming through ups the pace because he's fresh from being sheltered and the pace kicks up slightly only to drop shortly after.


Edit: this explains it rather nicely!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3Gfh_Qsrc

sbs2010

Brian? wrote: »

See my other answer, if the guy dropping off the front doesn't slow marginally the speed of the group isn't constant.

That doesn't make sense. Unless you mean that the lead rider is the guy at the front of the outside line.

That YouTube link says slow down once you join the slower inner line.

Say the inside line is moving at 30kmph and the outside is at 32. The average is roughly 31. You do 32 on the outside to get to the top. Once you're there you move left and slow to 30. The lead rider (on the inside) is already at 30 and he keeps that pace as a new leader comes in from the outside line.

I think

JBokeh

People don't realise the bike doesn't end at their arse, and there is actually a wheel behind them.

Same people probably park by reversing until they hear the bang

Brian?

sbs2010 wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. Unless you mean that the lead rider is the guy at the front of the outside line.

That YouTube link says slow down once you join the slower inner line.

Say the inside line is moving at 30kmph and the outside is at 32. The average is roughly 31. You do 32 on the outside to get to the top. Once you're there you move left and slow to 30. The lead rider (on the inside) is already at 30 and he keeps that pace as a new leader comes in from the outside line.

I think

You've summed up exactly what I said surely??

The lead rider is the guy ahead of everyone else, he slows to drop off the front. I don't get the confusion, sorry.

Raam

What Brian says is what I would suggest and prefer.

wexandproud

Brian? wrote: »

If the riders behind have to constantly up the speed to get to the front, the group will split to pieces as the pace goes up. Sometimes this is desirable, but not always.

If you want to work together, the lead rider drops the pace as he's passed, sits in and matches the new pace set by the riders ahead. It means you recover from your turn on the front as you move back around the the group. If you work this way the group stays together and works better as everyone gets a rest and stays fresher for their pull at the front.

If you want to drop riders you accelerate hard past the lead man, increasing the pace of the whole group and possibly causing splits.

have spent years trying to instill this into youngsters and newcomers and more often than not its dismissed with some reference to a book , a training blog or some other gob****e on da interweb.
another pet hate of mine is peoples fascination with whats going on behind them , they spend more time looking over their shoulder than in front of them , i keep telling the the race is in front of ya always in front.
when people say slow down on inside its not a matter of jamming on brakes and sitting up , as it was explained to me years ago its just about easing off for a few turns of the pedals and because the other guys have done the same they have lost that fraction of momentum and are slowing as you pull across so perfectly safe
I raced a good bit back in the eighties and all the skills were picked up on the road during training, racing or touring . the emphasis now a days seems to have changed to chasing numbers on screens . Thats ok if its what your into , but from what i see at sportives and the few races i go to now or even local club spins there are an awfull lot of cyclists who have no idea of basic skills

MichealD

wexandproud wrote: »

have spent years trying to instill this into youngsters and newcomers and more often than not its dismissed with some reference to a book , a training blog or some other gob****e on da interweb.
another pet hate of mine is peoples fascination with whats going on behind them , they spend more time looking over their shoulder than in front of them , i keep telling the the race is in front of ya always in front.
when people say slow down on inside its not a matter of jamming on brakes and sitting up , as it was explained to me years ago its just about easing off for a few turns of the pedals and because the other guys have done the same they have lost that fraction of momentum and are slowing as you pull across so perfectly safe
I raced a good bit back in the eighties and all the skills were picked up on the road during training, racing or touring . the emphasis now a days seems to have changed to chasing numbers on screens . Thats ok if its what your into , but from what i see at sportives and the few races i go to now or even local club spins there are an awfull lot of cyclists who have no idea of basic skills

Spot on!

Lumen

Brian? wrote: »

The lead rider is the guy ahead of everyone else, he slows to drop off the front. I don't get the confusion, sorry.

The confusion comes from the fact that some riders think that they're still "on the front" when they've moved left, which is normal in club ride "up and overs" but not when pushing on in a race.

The video illustrates my preferred remedy.

niceonetom

outfox wrote: »

Is it OK to yell at such riders to cop the ***k on?

This, for me, is the strangest part of this thread.

It's one thing to be slightly confused as to how to ride smoothly up and over, and hopefully that has been cleared up in this thread, but it's really bizarre to me that anyone would be confused about the whether communication is allowed. It's not just allowed it's (apparently) necessary. In person, at the time, not later, on the internet.

If someone is chopping across, they need to be told. If someone is (as might be the case here) holding their pace when they should be allowing themselves to slide, they need to be told.

So tell each other. Talk. Politely. I wouldn't open with "COP THE FCUK ON!" but for god sake, don't all be riding around in stoney silence, all secretly (and maybe correctly) thinking you're surrounded by idiots.

I know a lot of people do not take well to having their riding style commented upon and will interpret even the mildest remark as uncalled for criticism, but even if they piss and moan a bit, they'll usually tidy up their riding anyway, if only out of self-consciousness.