What's the Future for Suckler Farmers

50HX

with current expansion of dairy herds i am just wondering what are people's views on the future of suckler farmers across the board, from the fella/lassies selling weanlings to finishing stores.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/with-1m-dairy-calves-on-the-way-whats-the-future-for-beef/


do ye think that with the flood of dairy bulls to come down stream that it will knock factory prices or

suckler herds are currently way down so top quality beef cattle are/will be scarce

Personally i think there will be a short-medium demand for suckler breeding heifers(an extra nudge if there is a larger uptake on the BDGP) after yr 1)



interested in people's thoughts on the future both short and long term

we can't all get into liquid gold;)

tomwaterford

Is the whole suckler/beef thing not massively skewed in favour of the factories to a large extent by a over supply??

While no doubt everyone should try produce best quality animals...how much longer can tax money be used to prop it up without making a serious effort to tackle what appears to be little to competition at the end point for the cattle??

Farmer Pudsey

Problem with most suckler cattle is to justify a cow you need to carry the bullock to very heavy weights. However these carcass sizes are not favoured by the industry.

The highest priced market in the world the UK market wants carcasses of 280-330kgs ideally but will take them to 380 kgs. Suckler bred cattle are not ideal for this market. The US market is similar. Dairy bred cattle are ideal for this. Biggest issue with dairy cattle is the use of really small AA bulls and HE are going that way. There prodgney have very low daily weight gains.

However if bought cheap enough they still leave a margin.

freedominacup

50HX wrote: »

with current expansion of dairy herds i am just wondering what are people's views on the future of suckler farmers across the board, from the fella/lassies selling weanlings to finishing stores.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/with-1m-dairy-calves-on-the-way-whats-the-future-for-beef/


do ye think that with the flood of dairy bulls to come down stream that it will knock factory prices or

suckler herds are currently way down so top quality beef cattle are/will be scarce

Personally i think there will be a short-medium demand for suckler breeding heifers(an extra nudge if there is a larger uptake on the BDGP) after yr 1)



interested in people's thoughts on the future both short and long term

we can't all get into liquid gold;)

Not being smart but if you follow the links at the end of that article more than a few in beef farming must see a great future in it in the short term. Felix doesn't seem to impressed by beef farmers abilities with a calculator.

patsy_mccabe

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Problem with most suckler cattle is to justify a cow you need to carry the bullock to very heavy weights. However these carcass sizes are not favoured by the industry.

That's where the smaller, easier kept suckler cow comes in. I was at a few marts recently and I don't think there was any problem selling larger weight bullocks. Selling very well, in fact.

Farmer Pudsey

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's where the smaller, easier kept suckler cow comes in. I was at a few marts recently and I don't think there was any problem selling larger weight bullocks. Selling very well, in fact.

Factory will nearly take goats at present. I think they took horses one time:rolleyes:. I not like to have heavy cattle in 2017, overage cattle, bulls or any other excuse that the factory have when there is a kill of over 30K/week continuously

Muckit

Out of interest puds would you consider or did you ever buy in 50:50 dairy bred:suckler bred stock as an experiment to see how the returns compared?

bogman_bass

Is there a place for the full time suckler farmer? The fact is that there is, and will continue to be, enough hobby farmers to supply any niche markets with quality continentals. Should the full time guy abandon cows and rear calves from the dairy herd?

_Brian

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Factory will nearly take goats at present. I think they took horses one time:rolleyes:. I not like to have heavy cattle in 2017, overage cattle, bulls or any other excuse that the factory have when there is a kill of over 30K/week continuously

On the 30k kill.. If say we dropped back production to an average of say 26k a week supplied to the factories... While temporary it will lift all beef prices, will they not just source cheap carcasses elsewhere in the EU and ship them in rather than pay a fair price ??

I talk to lots of lads that say its 100% an oversupply problem on the farmer side.. but I don't feel confident that it would see a permanent floor put under beef..

Dozer1

Look at this weeks rag, big headlines on the milk processors price league, talk of all the investments for expansion etc... nothing like in the beef industry

As a typical sucker farmer with 20 or so suckler cows I don't see a bright future in the sector unfortunately until a lot more people exist the sector.

Until most suckler farmers are more like the Dairy boys who know costs at every level and are willing to drive forward ruthlessly on breeding and feeding then full time suckler farming is a non runner.

votuvant

50HX wrote: »

we can't all get into liquid gold;)

And for that reason there will probably always be a few of us lunatics at it on a part time basis.

In reality if you take away the SFP is there such a thing as a full time suckler farmer? I don't know of any.

50HX

votuvant wrote: »

And for that reason there will probably always be a few of us lunatics at it on a part time basis.

In reality if you take away the SFP is there such a thing as a full time suckler farmer? I don't know of any.

i know of one guy that has a herd of 70 cont cows- sells the weanlings - top class ones in fairness to him.......last year was the first year that he dipped into the SFP payment

take away SFP and i think we are all out of sucklers

teagasc say you need to have 120 suck cows to get the same return as the average industrial wage

Farrell

Sadly the cost of living keeps increasing & the sale price of farm produce gets less, will any of our children take a livelihood from the land

Farmer Pudsey

Muckit wrote: »

Out of interest puds would you consider or did you ever buy in 50:50 dairy bred:suckler bred stock as an experiment to see how the returns compared?

Yeas back as bullocks. However the problem is with suckler bred stock you have to be at the mart day in day out. Generally they come in in ones and twos and you might be lucky to pick up 3 in the one day. Hard enough to buy off farm as well.

Friesians are handier to pick up as they come in bunches into the ring. Same off farms you often can come accross bunches of 20+.

KatyMac

Farrell wrote: »

Sadly the cost of living keeps increasing & the sale price of farm produce gets less, will any of our children take a livelihood from the land

Have 2 girls and I don't want to 'saddle' either of them with the farm when I snuff it. Seriously think it will either be planted (with proper trees not conifers) or sold once us oldies can't work it any more.

Muckit

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yeas back as bullocks. However the problem is with suckler bred stock you have to be at the mart day in day out. Generally they come in in ones and twos and you might be lucky to pick up 3 in the one day. Hard enough to buy off farm as well.

Friesians are handier to pick up as they come in bunches into the ring. Same off farms you often can come accross bunches of 20+.

I was thinking this was the case. It's amazing the difference in the type of cattle that go through different marts depending on the part of the country you are in.

farawaygrass

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yeas back as bullocks. However the problem is with suckler bred stock you have to be at the mart day in day out. Generally they come in in ones and twos and you might be lucky to pick up 3 in the one day. Hard enough to buy off farm as well.

Friesians are handier to pick up as they come in bunches into the ring. Same off farms you often can come accross bunches of 20+.

I sold 5 Aa bullocks the other day at the mart. One of them in as a 1 and then 4 together. Was last in the ring and all but got on very well with the four even though the mart was emptying of people. The auctioneer told me afterwards I was right to put them in as 4, that two farmers went bidding on them mad. If I sold them as singles he said I would have got 50e less on average for them.

tomieen jones

farawaygrass wrote: »

I sold 5 Aa bullocks the other day at the mart. One of them in as a 1 and then 4 together. Was last in the ring and all but got on very well with the four even though the mart was emptying of people. The auctioneer told me afterwards I was right to put them in as 4, that two farmers went bidding on them mad. If I sold them as singles he said I would have got 50e less on average for them.

are you sure the auctioneer didn't want to just get the fcuk out of there early

blue5000

farawaygrass wrote: »

I sold 5 Aa bullocks the other day at the mart. One of them in as a 1 and then 4 together. Was last in the ring and all but got on very well with the four even though the mart was emptying of people. The auctioneer told me afterwards I was right to put them in as 4, that two farmers went bidding on them mad. If I sold them as singles he said I would have got 50e less on average for them.

tomieen jones wrote: »

are you sure the auctioneer didn't want to just get the fcuk out of there early

Two lads didn't want to go home empty handed, if they were sold in singles both of them would probably go home with 2 each, auctioneer was right, it was buy 4 or none.

CallofGuti

I'm not a great farmer by any stretch and I've on farm income but I'm convinced that there is a viable future for suckler farmers. Sure, scale comes into but good stock is good stock and there will always be demand for good beef cattle.

Maybe I've answered the whole conundrum in my first line in that I have an off farm income but my own bit of an enterprise stands on its own two feet, it pays its way and pays for stuff for the family side of things.

I've always been of the opinion that if all the lads are running in one direction, then run in the other. Agriland had a bit about 1m extra dairy calves in the near future. I embrace that. I (and I mean the beef sector) can make better beef than they can so let them lads throw out an Angus or Hereford out of a Holstein. My Lim, Ch and Sim will always be worth more.

Fingers crossed, at least!

farawaygrass

tomieen jones wrote: »

are you sure the auctioneer didn't want to just get the fcuk out of there early

I had them entered that way from the morning so nothing to do with him atall.

Willfarman

Cattle should always be sold in bunches if you can get em to match up at all

blue5000

Willfarman wrote: »

Cattle should always be sold in bunches if you can get em to match up at all

Agree, easier on the buyer too as they'll probably settle down quicker. Suckler cattle seem to be getting madder every generation.

weatherbyfoxer

blue5000 wrote: »

Agree, easier on the buyer too as they'll probably settle down quicker. Suckler cattle seem to be getting madder every generation.

Most people seem to care more animal quailty than docility in suckler systems at the minute the local ai man told me

At the end of the day what good is having a super animal if you end up hanging up before it!!

One of the reasons i wont be sorry to see the back of my cows this autum..no more getting highly strung weanlings that would go through you for a short cut!

20silkcut

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Most people seem to care more animal quailty than docility in suckler systems at the minute the local ai man told me

At the end of the day what good is having a super animal if you end up hanging up before it!!

One of the reasons i wont be sorry to see the back of my cows this autum..no more getting highly strung weanlings that would go through you for a short cut!

100% agree, I live on the side of a busy main road I wouldn't let a Charolais or limousine into the place. Plus I am a one man operation getting the cattle up to the yard for dosing takes a bit of planning but I can do it on my own. if I had continentals I could forget about it and would have to organise help every time.

Willfarman

Charolais cattle are quiet as as a breed. It's the lack of human contact and general stockmanship that to blame for wild charolais cattle. However lims should be liscenced!

ganmo

Willfarman wrote: »

Charolais cattle are quiet as as a breed. It's the lack of human contact and general stockmanship that to blame for wild charolais cattle. However lims should be liscenced!

But does it pay to spend that time with them? That's the crux of it

weatherbyfoxer

ganmo wrote: »

But does it pay to spend that time with them? That's the crux of it

Depends more on your setup to be honest we put in a paddock system for the cows 5 years ago and move them once a week this helped alot. But still find when the calves are weaned that it take the whole winter in the sheds for them to become less flighty...

Miname

I've both limousines and Charolais and have no issue with either, there's usually one calf every year that seems to be a bit wild but other than that there quiet enough animals this generalisation of limousine cattle that they are all wild is pure bull. I've a black whitehead here that tried to climb over me last week but I'm not going to brand them all mad. Wild cows get culled and it solves most of the issues down the line.

CloughCasey1

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Most people seem to care more animal quailty than docility in suckler systems at the minute the local ai man told me

At the end of the day what good is having a super animal if you end up hanging up before it!!

One of the reasons i wont be sorry to see the back of my cows this autum..no more getting highly strung weanlings that would go through you for a short cut!

What system will you run with?

weatherbyfoxer

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

What system will you run with?

Increase the sheep flock and rear aa or he heifer calves to beef

greysides

Miname wrote: »

I've both limousines and Charolais and have no issue with either, there's usually one calf every year that seems to be a bit wild but other than that there quiet enough animals this generalisation of limousine cattle that they are all wild is pure bull. I've a black whitehead here that tried to climb over me last week but I'm not going to brand them all mad. Wild cows get culled and it solves most of the issues down the line.

Completely agree with you. Barr the odd throw-back due to old breeding stock Limousins are as quiet as any. Culling the older wilder cows is a huge help as a lot of behaviour is learnt. If you're buying in stock you're at the mercy of the rearer for their temperament; if you're own stock are wild........the first place I'd look is close to home.
Lack of human contact due to driving through the herd in a quad or jeep is no help. Herding with improperly trained dogs is another factor (in essence cattle-baiting). The general attitude shown towards stock is a major factor- patience is a distinct virtue.
If you've no time (i.e. no regard) for stock then grow cereals or go building, both they and you will be happier for it.

Kovu

Miname wrote: »

I've both limousines and Charolais and have no issue with either, there's usually one calf every year that seems to be a bit wild but other than that there quiet enough animals this generalisation of limousine cattle that they are all wild is pure bull. I've a black whitehead here that tried to climb over me last week but I'm not going to brand them all mad. Wild cows get culled and it solves most of the issues down the line.

I was jeered at before when I commented on how we handle limousins so I won't comment further on that. I am happy with sucklers, they work for us. They make us money.

I will not get into an argument this time *crosses fingers*

Panch18

tomieen jones wrote: »

are you sure the auctioneer didn't want to just get the fcuk out of there early

When you are trying to buy any amount of cattle there is nothing more frustrating than cattle being sold as singles in any large quantity

It would drive you pure nuts

AP2014

Kovu wrote: »

I was jeered at before when I commented on how we handle limousins so I won't comment further on that. I am happy with sucklers, they work for us. They make us money.

I will not get into an argument this time *crosses fingers*

How much money Kovu? Go wan give us some approx figures and system type. Main cost savings and spend? What's manageable and not?

Willfarman

This year the good quality continental cows are definately paying their way. But one swallow never made a summer..

blue5000

Kovu wrote: »

I was jeered at before when I commented on how we handle limousins so I won't comment further on that. I am happy with sucklers, they work for us. They make us money.

I will not get into an argument this time *crosses fingers*

One of the 'catch 22' things with sucklers I find is Nitrogen. Dairy farmers can reduce costs by getting cows out early in feb, cows can be in at night, get meal in the parlour and are coming in to be milked anyway.

With sucklers I have been calving mid march onwards, so when a cow calves she can be left out. I try to take advantage of clover for nitrogen, great in summer but no early grass because clover gets smothered out if I leave grass long over the winter to have it in early spring. I am not too heavily stocked, by using clover rotations can go to 30 days in summer.

Clover swards don't produce as much grass in the back end either, so extended grazing is hard to do this time of year as well, we have fed bales in a ring feeder in the field and to be honest it can make a hole in bad weather, with a bald patch the following year. Most years yearlings go to grass and block graze in feb on silage ground.

Just wondering how can I use extended grazing to keep costs down and take advantage of clover's free nitrogen. I don't really have sheds suitable to have cows and calves in, at least not in big numbers.

Farmer Pudsey

blue5000 wrote: »

One of the 'catch 22' things with sucklers I find is Nitrogen. Dairy farmers can reduce costs by getting cows out early in feb, cows can be in at night, get meal in the parlour and are coming in to be milked anyway.

With sucklers I have been calving mid march onwards, so when a cow calves she can be left out. I try to take advantage of clover for nitrogen, great in summer but no early grass because clover gets smothered out if I leave grass long over the winter to have it in early spring. I am not too heavily stocked, by using clover rotations can go to 30 days in summer.

Clover swards don't produce as much grass in the back end either, so extended grazing is hard to do this time of year as well, we have fed bales in a ring feeder in the field and to be honest it can make a hole in bad weather, with a bald patch the following year. Most years yearlings go to grass and block graze in feb on silage ground.

Just wondering how can I use extended grazing to keep costs down and take advantage of clover's free nitrogen. I don't really have sheds suitable to have cows and calves in, at least not in big numbers.

Clover is often over rated. Having said that it will recover in paddocks that you carry covers over the winter on. It is really important to get out in early March with N (Urea is the cheapest form) when ground temp exceed 6C. Slurry spread during early spring will encourage growth as well and helps clover as well. Clover is dependent on PH and P&K more than grass. It is important it is let good to seed ever now and again as well.


You onlu need a few paddocks with good covers to get out early. Most lads issue is the tempation to graze light covers in November. Extending in the autumn is dependent on getting out with N again in Mid August. Dairy lads spread 30+ units this time of year accross the whole farm. Again waether permitting urea is the product of choice. But you will get good response to 15-20 units of N/acre.

Extended grazing is dependent on a few thing using N at appropiate times, closing fraom early October, reseeded pasture will grwo earlier and longer than old swards, right P&K and lime is important. P is very important for early( low temp )growth.

Old clover is not producing as much N as farmers think you need the new big leafed clovers in reseeds to really boost N. It is a matter of balance and managment to achieve extended grazing

Bullocks

blue5000 wrote: »

One of the 'catch 22' things with sucklers I find is Nitrogen. Dairy farmers can reduce costs by getting cows out early in feb, cows can be in at night, get meal in the parlour and are coming in to be milked anyway.

With sucklers I have been calving mid march onwards, so when a cow calves she can be left out. I try to take advantage of clover for nitrogen, great in summer but no early grass because clover gets smothered out if I leave grass long over the winter to have it in early spring. I am not too heavily stocked, by using clover rotations can go to 30 days in summer.

Clover swards don't produce as much grass in the back end either, so extended grazing is hard to do this time of year as well, we have fed bales in a ring feeder in the field and to be honest it can make a hole in bad weather, with a bald patch the following year. Most years yearlings go to grass and block graze in feb on silage ground.

Just wondering how can I use extended grazing to keep costs down and take advantage of clover's free nitrogen. I don't really have sheds suitable to have cows and calves in, at least not in big numbers.

I often wondered if it was possible to rent a dry bit of land that you could out winter on instead of building a shed

Farmer Pudsey

Bullocks wrote: »

I often wondered if it was possible to rent a dry bit of land that you could out winter on instead of building a shed

You are really back to stocking rates. You are only allowed to out winter at 1LU/HA that is one suckler cow to 2.5 acres or 5 weanlings to 7.5 acres. You can chance it but if inspected you are risking you SFP or having Co Council breathing down your neck.

Mad4simmental

Going to try spread out cows this year at the end of the year nob onwards. Put two in a 6 acre field and 3 to a ten acre field type of a thing and try leave them out untill Christmas week if possible.

blue5000

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Going to try spread out cows this year at the end of the year nob onwards. Put two in a 6 acre field and 3 to a ten acre field type of a thing and try leave them out untill Christmas week if possible.

Not the way to do it, block graze so they only have 1% of the farm every day is better, that way the ground grazed first will have a decent cover on it while you are still grazing the last bit.

Willfarman

blue5000 wrote: »

Not the way to do it, block graze so they only have 1% of the farm every day is better, that way the ground grazed first will have a decent cover on it while you are still grazing the last bit.

Around here that would be block mauling or block
ploughing depending on how wet it got!

Farmer Pudsey

Willfarman wrote: »

Around here that would be block mauling or block
ploughing depending on how wet it got!

It is not necessary to block graze as such. However you can move them through paddocks. Giving them 4-7 day block/paddocks. What this allows is to close 3-4 acres at the time. The paddocks closed in early October will have a good cover of grass in March. This is what allows me to leave off 20+ bullocks in early March and to try to have an average turn out date of March 17 stocked at over 170 units of organic N/HA.

Having cattle split all over the farm until Christmass means no turnout until Mid April.

CloughCasey1

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is not necessary to block graze as such. However you can move them through paddocks. Giving them 4-7 day block/paddocks. What this allows is to close 3-4 acres at the time. The paddocks closed in early October will have a good cover of grass in March. This is what allows me to leave off 20+ bullocks in early March and to try to have an average turn out date of March 17 stocked at over 170 units of organic N/HA.

Having cattle split all over the farm until Christmass means no turnout until Mid April.

Don't they say for every day too long they are left out at back end is two days extra in the shed

Farmer Pudsey

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Don't they say for every day too long they are left out at back end is two days extra in the shed

A bite in the spring is worth two in the autumn.

CloughCasey1

Do you have a certain date you close up shop for the winter even in a good year? Obviously weather can dictate proceedings very fast!

Farmer Pudsey

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Do you have a certain date you close up shop for the winter even in a good year? Obviously weather can dictate proceedings very fast!

I start closing the first week in October. With drystock I would not worry about heavy covers over the winter. They will eat them down to the butt in march after 3-4 months inside on silage. When the farm is eaten down I house. I would not be afraid to leave a late September behind and graze in late February or early March. Yes my lad is dry but I am putting 500kg bullocks and over out first not the lighter ones.

Willfarman

Dry land different rules. On heavy land the time to cut an ash plant is when you see it.