Extracurricular disappointment

linguist

I realise from all the posts about job hunting etc that many people have a lot more to worry about than what I want to raise here, but it’s midsummer and this particular issue has come up at a time when I obviously can’t talk it over in the staffroom and reach a decision on a proportionate response. And yes, sorry this is on the long side!

I’m going to do my best not to identify the extra-curricular activity involved even though it might be obvious to some. If anyone has similar experience, feel free to PM and we can discuss more specifics. It really might help.

I am involved in running an activity at work which ultimately leads to a number of students being selected to represent Ireland abroad. It is regarded (or might regard itself!) as being fairly prestigious I think it’s fair to say. This year we had a great year and achieved the holy grail of international selection for some students. The relationships on all sides (management, me as coach, students, parents) are excellent and I’ve always felt very valued by them.

I would like to think that most teachers would appreciate that if something like this is achieved, it is understandable that the coaching teacher would like to attend the international event if possible. Again, no problem from my own school with that! However, this is one of those activities that is effectively run by third level students and this is where, despite their gifts at what they do, a sense of appreciation for teachers, of their legitimate expectations etc. seems to go out the window. To give an example, a number of my students were unsuccessful in qualifying rounds this year but the organisers never feed back to the teacher(s) despite having contact details. This results in students being informed individually if they are successful, the unsuccessful ones often hearing nothing for ages and the teacher in the middle trying to do what we do which is coach, encourage, praise, console etc in the absence of timely information.

I expressed my interest in attending an international session with a student of mine to the organisers at a meeting towards the end of the year. I followed up with an email shortly afterwards and the person concerned said they were away and would contact me on their return. Meanwhile, my student has received communication naming another adult as the person going on the trip. I know for a fact that this person had not been selected when I expressed my interest and indeed that they tend to use retired teachers!

I am extremely disappointed and very upset in a way that I think colleagues might understand. I willingly give up time to coach extra-curricular and international selection, in any activity, is rare enough and a massive honour when it happens. I had set my heart on being there to see our hard work brought to fruition. The irony is that my student and the others involved have to pay for this other adult in addition to themselves. There is no doubt that my school would have met my costs.

We teachers spend so much of our time giving – and I don’t regret it – but the question I face now is how to go about reacting to this. I feel that my interest and willingness to help have been rebuffed and indeed that I have lost face with my student who was aware of my desire to attend. I do feel that I need to express my disappointment and request that they find a way of including me but what do others feel?

RealJohn

It sounds ridiculous to me that the supervising teacher isn't automatically selected as the adult representative of the student(s) for any sort of trip relating to an extra curricular activity. In fact, I would have thought that if the students are traveling as representatives of the school that the organisers should have very little say in who accompanies the students, aside from deciding how many are allowed to.

Maybe I'm misreading the situation since your post is (intentionally) unclear but it sounds to me like the organisers need to be told how schools are run. Is the adult in question connected to the school at all or is he/she a representative of the organisation running the activity? It doesn't sound like the latter is the case but I can't see how they could justify sending anyone but the supervising teacher under any other circumstance.

linguist

Yes, I am trying not to go so far as to identify the exact activity. Feel free to PM if you think you can advise further. My student is now part of a group of students from various schools going to represent Ireland. I don't know who actually the adult selected is but I'm told they are often retired teachers. What I know for sure is that this person had not been selected when I expressed my interest and when I sent my email. Thanks a lot for your supportive words. I know I seem to be making a mountain of it but this is something I invest a lot of time in and actually matters to me.

evolving_doors

has this 'other person' a duty of care towards the student or do they just get a ticket to attend the event at the same time?

linguist

Yes they have a duty of care clearly but, as I've stated, they are basically getting a free ride to an event that has a big teachers'/social dimension on the side which my student and the others going have to pay for - and we are not a fee paying school! - whereas had I gone, given that one of our own is involved, I know we would have found the money for my costs in house. As it is, myself and the students - I've another one selected for a separate international - will be fundraising for everything including, as it happens, this other adult!

spurious

I find it odd that a person unknown to the children from your school would be responsible for them.

linguist

Well to be fair, if I went I would of course be unknown to the other schools involved!

One argument that I know people could make is that if every school/coach was reacting as I am, the thing would be unwieldy. However, the fact is that the organisation in question is in need of more teachers. Minutes of meetings online show concern about a shortage of people like me wanting to help. As with everything else, the demands of recent years (Croke Park etc) mean that many teachers are cutting back and not adding extracurricular. Indeed, one of the reasons why they use retired people is because they have not replaced them. In every way, it's frustrating. To have somebody go and offer, to have evidence which I have seen in an email sent to my student that nobody had by then been selected, and to then further email my student naming somebody else and still not come back to me. It's really poor stuff and I'm glad to see I'm obviously not alone in thinking this.

qweerty

Assuming you know the answer...will the person going be qualified to provide support related to the activity?

evolving_doors

Ok just re-reading it again and the likely scenario is that the organisers (obviously voluntary) have dropped the ball as regards your request to attend (slipped between the cracks as it were!). So in the heel of the hunt they must have went with the default option of getting an 'old reliable' to tag along with the student.

What you need to do now is to relay this back to the organisers saying that you feel it's highly unusual not to have selected the coach to attend and that you would seriously have to consider taking a year or two out about whether to partake again as you feel your role isn't even being considered or acknowledged. You could mention that you appreciate that the organisers are also undertaking this work voluntarily, but essentially... fair's fair. Also you think it was strange for students not to be told about whether they were successful or not in the previous endeavour!

Maybe there's something about getting that other person to attend to keep them in touch with organisation (are they perhaps a private donor or have very good networks of some sort!). So it might have been a case of "what adult representatives do we send on this tour.... ok lads lets look at who we need to 'keep sweet' before we approach the schools/teachers/parents".

I wouldn't say you have lost face with your student though, if you were upfront with them and say that the organisation itself wanted to send one of their own representatives so the decision was out of your hands!!! Maybe say it to their parents? I think it's really odd that if someone is going to go into competition then the coach is expected to stay at home checking their emails for news!!

What's to stop you going anyway?

katydid

linguist wrote: »

Yes, I am trying not to go so far as to identify the exact activity. Feel free to PM if you think you can advise further. My student is now part of a group of students from various schools going to represent Ireland. I don't know who actually the adult selected is but I'm told they are often retired teachers. What I know for sure is that this person had not been selected when I expressed my interest and when I sent my email. Thanks a lot for your supportive words. I know I seem to be making a mountain of it but this is something I invest a lot of time in and actually matters to me.

If the other person is accompanying a group of students from different schools, maybe they chose someone who is not associated with any particular school, rather than pick someone from one of the schools involved. In the interest of fairness.

Just playing devil's advocate here...

spurious

Are these students young? I mean closer to 12-14 than 16-18?

Do their parents not have a say in who accompanies their children if they are the ones paying this person's fare?

What if a parent wants to go rather than send their child off with someone they do not know?

It doesn't sound like the organisers have thought this through from either the perspective of a teacher/coach or a parent.

linguist

katydid: Maybe so - but would it have hurt them to tell me? It's incredibly naive to be emailing my student and thinking I won't know. As a school, we are very careful regarding online activity and, in line with the Principal's wishes, the students forward relevant emails to me which I keep on my school email account.

Geb..: Sorry, too many letters!:) Thank you so very much for that very supportive response. You make excellent points. It's not as if I wasn't thinking along those lines to a point. But you know, during the holidays without the usual range of staffroom heads to bounce things off, it's important to see what colleagues here might think. Whatever about my current hurt, I am trying to take the long term view and avoid flying off the handle. I'm going to see what other people here say - all views are welcome such as katykid's. But yes, in the next couple of days, I can see myself carefully drafting an email along those broad lines. However, my students would suffer if I threatened to take a step back and they don't deserve that. So I'm not sure about including that.

As for your last line, yes, I have thought that too. Let me be honest though - gatecrashing doesn't make you welcome. I have relationships with my students and their parents and my career to mind. If I were to risk turning up and potentially risk becoming involved in a scene of some kind, it would be all over social media as you can imagine. What I want is for them to agree to my attending, for them to treat me appropriately when there and to then bury the hatchet and for me to behave appropriately in kind.

linguist

16-18 spurious. I suppose though that we're back to something I said earlier. Either way, they will be supervised by somebody not all of them will know. The issue here is really a disregard for me and the fact that my student will end up without me there despite my being willing to be there and paying the way of this other person whereas I would never make him do that.

katydid

linguist wrote: »

katydid: Maybe so - but would it have hurt them to tell me? It's incredibly naive to be emailing my student and thinking I won't know. As a school, we are very careful regarding online activity and, in line with the Principal's wishes, the students forward relevant emails to me which I keep on my school email account..

I see your point, but I suppose the organisers don't really see the teachers as relevant once the student has go to a certain point. I don't think there was anything as conscious as emailing the student and thinking you wouldn't find out. It sounds harsh, but basically you're out of the picture now, I doubt if you have even crossed their mind.

As we've seen in recent times - Croke Park hours etc. the extra curricular work teachers do is totally unappreciated or recognised. Just a fact of life.

katydid

linguist wrote: »

16-18 spurious. I suppose though that we're back to something I said earlier. Either way, they will be supervised by somebody not all of them will know. The issue here is really a disregard for me and the fact that my student will end up without me there despite my being willing to be there and paying the way of this other person whereas I would never make him do that.

Presumably they will be supervised by someone NONE of them will know. If there is only one person to supervise, in a way, is that not fairer than if some of the students get to travel with their teacher while others don't?

linguist

So katykid, lifting a line from RealJohn who was the first to respond - somewhat out of context - do you agree that I should email them to put myself back in the picture and essentially tell them 'how schools are run', i.e. it's people like me who do the long term work that keeps your activity going and I do not appreciate such a disregard for me and my role - albeit not in such blunt terms?

katydid

linguist wrote: »

So katykid, lifting a line from RealJohn who was the first to respond - somewhat out of context - do you agree that I should email them to put myself back in the picture and essentially tell them 'how schools are run', i.e. it's people like me who do the long term work that keeps your activity going and I do not appreciate such a disregard for me and my role - albeit not in such blunt terms?

You could, but you'd be wasting your time, in my opinion. I'm thirty four years teaching and I've long ago learned that you get no thanks or appreciation for anything you do. Sorry to be so cynical...

linguist

Sure, look I appreciate your view because I didn't post looking only for unbridled sympathy. That said, however, I am lucky with my students, their parents and my school and I don't feel that lack of appreciation from any of those quarters. I guess I'm lucky in that way.

katydid

linguist wrote: »

Sure, look I appreciate your view because I didn't post looking only for unbridled sympathy. That said, however, I am lucky with my students, their parents and my school and I don't feel that lack of appreciation from any of those quarters. I guess I'm lucky in that way.

Fair play to you for doing what you do. I used to in the past, but in recent years, especially since Teachers' Detention, I don't do a single thing beyond what I have to do. Kind of sad, I know, but the Dept. seems determined to destroy the education system as we know it...

My father was a secondary school teacher and ran various clubs in his school. Evenings, weekends; he spent his own money on buying the lads chips and coke, and carted them around in his car. And in fairness, they appreciated it - a little cohort of them stayed in touch. They used to visit him when he was in a nursing home, and carried his coffin when he died. He was a scout leader too, and it was a similar story. That's why it breaks my heart to see what's happening in our schools today. Anyway, end of rant...

mirrorwall14

To clarify (I have no idea what extracurricular this is btw!)

1. You run some sort of club in school
2. You entered a competition at local level under the school name which had potential to progress to international
3. Your student has progressed to international level but the school have been cut off contact in relation to the competition results and the student progressing

Am I reading that correctly? At point 2, did you enter the competition or did the student enter the competition? As in was it under the name of the school the competition was entered?

If it was under the schools name I consider this frankly bizzarre and I would definitely be outlining my concerns to the organisation in question. It would be wholly inappropriate in my view for an organisation to stop contacting the teacher and instead make individual contact with a student who is underage to make arrangements to bring them abroad without any school involvement?

I think that's nuts. And nothing to do with being offended or hurt. I just think that is very poor form and I would imagine borderline infringing on the schools responsibility to the student in question

linguist

mirrorwall: Basically you are correct. Schools enter students in the event. To be honest, I know they are very reputable and I make it my business to keep across everything. My students keep me totally in the loop too. Basically you are right, although the way I do it is as I've said and I also phone their parents as they progress and they (the parents) have my number to raise any concerns at any time. But yes, one could be totally hands off and it would be as you outline.

baby builder

Would it be fair to say that the adult chosen, while also acting as a chaperone, in fact has a job at the international competition. They will either be the Irish judge for the competition (and therefore need to have experience in marking the international competition which is not the same as the national competition) or they are the coach for the international team (and hence are involved in picking the students to make up the team for each round - where the fact that they are not linked to any student makes it fairer?)

As you will notice - I am very familiar with the competition in question! Indeed - I was the conveenor twenty odd years ago when I attended Trinity.

You've left out details of the competition which are the main reason that individual teachers from schools are not picked as one of the adult representatives. Imagine s scenario where you are there - your role is now either Irish judge (have you experience in marking systems involved, because it is different to the national competition and justifying those results if needed) or Irish coach. If it's Irish coach for the team, can you see a situation where other teachers would be up in arms if their school representative was not picked and your student was in all rounds?

Also - I'm assuming that your student, and others from around the country, will now be meeting up with other team members, the Irish judge and coach and will be prepped re the competition and advised on reading material etc.

The competition your school entered is a national one. The school name is displayed under the student name and, if reported, is also mentioned. The school is never mentioned in the international competition. The students now become the Irish team. Acutally - it's not even a pre-requisite that the students picked are the winners of the national competition - sometimes other finalists are chosen instead due to their style of

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which would suit the international competition more.

I understand you would like to be there - but I do feel you've misrepresented the situation slightly by saying the adult is there as just chaperone while not even alluding to their actual role.

linguist

Sorry baby_builder, we are clearly not talking about the same competition since you're totally incorrect. The adult involved has no judging role either nationally or internationally. They are simply accompanying the team. I did not misrepresent anything.

katydid

baby builder wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that the adult chosen, while also acting as a chaperone, in fact has a job at the international competition. They will either be the Irish judge for the competition (and therefore need to have experience in marking the international competition which is not the same as the national competition) or they are the coach for the international team (and hence are involved in picking the students to make up the team for each round - where the fact that they are not linked to any student makes it fairer?)

.

The thing is, even if there were no element involved of the adult being a judge or a coach, it would be rather unfair for the teacher of one of the students on the team to be accompanying them. Not in terms of giving advantage to any individual - they would be working as a team; but it would seem to me more unfair than having a neutral person. Unfair to the teachers that didn't get to go.

The teacher at school level has done his or her job, the thing has now moved on to a different level. A bummer, but...

linguist

I'm going to have to leave this conversation for a couple of hours but just maybe to address katydid's point there which I'm sure others may agree with.

Clearly, I could agree with the generality of it being fair to pick a neutral teacher. However, I don't know that the teacher picked is neutral. I don't actually know if they teach in one of the other schools or not. The point here is that there is no process and no transparency. I've done a fair amount of research as you might expect. For example, for every aspect of running the event that the third level students do, there are open 'calls' for various roles. In many other countries, there are similar open calls for accompanying teachers. I have read extensive online resources where teachers from various countries have called for steps to bring more teachers in acknowledging that this is how a school-based activity refreshes itself and best practice is shared and passed on. In Ireland, this is not done. To lose out in a process you understand is one thing but there was no process that I have been informed of and I've read every word of what came my way over the past year.

baby builder

Sincere apologies Linguist - I assumed you were talking about a debating competition where an Irish judge and coach is sent with the school children.

However, as the previous poster has said, there are students from different schools involved - hence no one teacher from a school should feel they have a right to be asked to accompany when the competition has provided an adult to be in loco parentis.

spurious

We would never have been allowed send our kids off from the school without an adult known to them (one of each gender if a mixed group and overnighting).

The parents have no issue with underage students going off with a stranger?

mirrorwall14

spurious wrote: »

We would never have been allowed send our kids off from the school without an adult known to them (one of each gender if a mixed group and overnighting).

The parents have no issue with underage students going off with a stranger?

That and the stopping of contact through the school is what I find most bizzarre in this case.

baby builder

These students are 16-18. They are not representing the school but the country. Their parents are the ones who decide if they take part in the international competition, not the school. They do not need permission from the school.

If they were selected for an Irish schoolboy/schoolgirl team, the individual school that the kids attended would not be informed of all fixtures and results. They would not be asked to attend as an adult in charge of the kids - the governing body of the competition would have all that in place.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

We would never have been allowed send our kids off from the school without an adult known to them (one of each gender if a mixed group and overnighting).

The parents have no issue with underage students going off with a stranger?

They are not twelve year olds. They are sixteen to eighteen, which means that some of them are already adults.

They are going as a group to an international event, and have a responsible adult accompanying them. They don't need babysitting, they just need to have access to a responsible adult if issues arise.

When I was a teenager I was very involved in the Guides. I went to many events, national and international, as part of a group from different Guide companies, and in many cases we had no adult with us, or if we had, it was often someone we didn't know.

katydid

linguist wrote: »

I'm going to have to leave this conversation for a couple of hours but just maybe to address katydid's point there which I'm sure others may agree with.

Clearly, I could agree with the generality of it being fair to pick a neutral teacher. However, I don't know that the teacher picked is neutral. I don't actually know if they teach in one of the other schools or not. The point here is that there is no process and no transparency. I've done a fair amount of research as you might expect. For example, for every aspect of running the event that the third level students do, there are open 'calls' for various roles. In many other countries, there are similar open calls for accompanying teachers. I have read extensive online resources where teachers from various countries have called for steps to bring more teachers in acknowledging that this is how a school-based activity refreshes itself and best practice is shared and passed on. In Ireland, this is not done. To lose out in a process you understand is one thing but there was no process that I have been informed of and I've read every word of what came my way over the past year.

Ok, I take your point that you don't know who the person is and that it might be another teacher. That is probably worth finding out, and if it is a teacher of another team member, that's worth questioning.

But I think you're taking this too personally - you've done your bit, your student is now part of an international team, and your role is finished. I know that's tough, but that's the reality. It's a school based activity at one stage, but clearly goes beyond that at this stage.
I don't really understand why you are so desperate to go to the international event, is it not enough that your student has been successful and made the team? I'm not sure why you think the student would be contacting you about it now.

Anyway, no harm finding out how it works for future reference.

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

That and the stopping of contact through the school is what I find most bizzarre in this case.

I don't find that strange. The student is now part of an Irish team, representing the country, not the school. The contact should now be with the student as an individual, and with their parents if they are under 18. I'm sure the school will get a mention along the way.

linguist

babybuilder: Absolutely no harm done, although perhaps best not to mention specific competitions in a critical thread. Former debaters often become top lawyers. Anyway, I'll leave that to the mods:)

katydid: Again, thank you for your thoughts. They are helping me to frame a balanced response. I really appreciate all this from everyone since it really is the virtual staffroom I don't have at the moment as I said before. I suppose to an extent you've nailed your colours with regard to not doing extra-curricular - although you've said you did in the past. Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who found your post about your Dad very moving. He was clearly a great man. But I digress.

To an extent, that argument is to me quite nihilistic. Why would anyone want to be there for anything? Why should the coach be put out if management won't release him/her to go the match? Yes, I realise there is a bit of a difference between representing the school and representing the country. But our school regularly gets players to high levels in sport and I can assure you lots of us turn out, not just the sports coaches. Happy summer Sundays you wouldn't miss etc. Why would I want to be there? Because I care and that's how I'm made I suppose. I've always had it clear that as a coach I am not the talent but I am a facilitator of talent. I do take some pride in that and I couldn't do it if somewhere it didn't have meaning for me.

katydid

linguist wrote: »

babybuilder: Absolutely no harm done, although perhaps best not to mention specific competitions in a critical thread. Former debaters often become top lawyers. Anyway, I'll leave that to the mods:)

katydid: Again, thank you for your thoughts. They are helping me to frame a balanced response. I really appreciate all this from everyone since it really is the virtual staffroom I don't have at the moment as I said before. I suppose to an extent you've nailed your colours with regard to not doing extra-curricular - although you've said you did in the past. Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who found your post about your Dad very moving. He was clearly a great man. But I digress.

To an extent, that argument is to me quite nihilistic. Why would anyone want to be there for anything? Why should the coach be put out if management won't release him/her to go the match? Yes, I realise there is a bit of a difference between representing the school and representing the country. But our school regularly gets players to high levels in sport and I can assure you lots of us turn out, not just the sports coaches. Happy summer Sundays you wouldn't miss etc. Why would I want to be there? Because I care and that's how I'm made I suppose. I've always had it clear that as a coach I am not the talent but I am a facilitator of talent. I do take some pride in that and I couldn't do it if somewhere it didn't have meaning for me.

I do understand where you're coming from, and I admire your commitment. Maybe if I worked at second level rather than FE I might find it harder to distance myself from extra-curricular activities. I still do a lot of extra work myself, in upskilling and in course development, but there isn't so much call for extra-curricular involvement with the students.

But I do think that as teachers we have to put our collective foot down and refuse to do this kind of thing until some recognition is given, such as the withdrawal of Teachers' Detention, which is a slap in the face, given all the extra hours teachers do give. In most of the secondary schools where I live it has more or less stopped. Outsiders have to be paid to come in and do stuff like sports coaching or choir, because the teachers have withdrawn. Now that the parents have to fork out for these activities, they might just realise what was being done voluntarily all these years...

As far as this competition is concerned, I still think that when you are dealing with an international level, and students from various schools making up the team, the individual school and their teachers are out of the picture. Especially with young people that old, some of whom are adults. It would be most unusual, in my opinion, for it to be otherwise. But, as you said, it would be worth finding out if it is a neutral person or a teacher from one of the other schools is going along. Just so you know what you're dealing with in future.

One thing I would suggest; don't let it eat you away and spoil your well-deserved holidays. You need to go back after the summer refreshed and ready for another round. The weather might be awful but do something for yourself that has nothing to do with school. It might help you to get another perspective on this whole thing!