Unfair dismissal?

pumpkin222

Hi so I've recently been let go from my part time job until "further availability". However I have signed a year long contract with this company so surely they can't do this? I was not told my hours were docked by my boss-I had to contact them. They were periods throughout the past couple of months where I would be 6-8 weeks without work. My question is- is there anything I can do about this?

Boards.ie: Niamh

Moved to Work Problems, their forum charter now applies.

Mrs OBumble

How long have you been there?

pumpkin222

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How long have you been there?

12 months

davo10

pumpkin222 wrote: »

12 months

Sounds like you had a zero hour contract and only worked when they needed you. Were you there 12 months or did you sign a contract for 12 months? Was it a fixed term contract?

pumpkin222

davo10 wrote: »

Sounds like you had a zero hour contract and only worked when they needed you. Were you there 12 months or did you sign a contract for 12 months? Was it a fixed term contract?

Hiya I've been working there 12 months and the contract is also 12 months. Being honest I couldn't tell you I was basically given a pen to sign my name that's about it

Stheno

pumpkin222 wrote: »

Hiya I've been working there 12 months and the contract is also 12 months. Being honest I couldn't tell you I was basically given a pen to sign my name that's about it

So your contract is up now?

pumpkin222

Stheno wrote: »

So your contract is up now?

No only signed the contract in January

Stheno

pumpkin222 wrote: »

No only signed the contract in January

What are the start and end dates on it? And what date did you start working there?

pumpkin222

Stheno wrote: »

What are the start and end dates on it? And what date did you start working there?

There were no start or end dates it was exactly a year from the date I signed it. I have been working in this company since 6th July 2014. I know it was very stupid of me not to go through the contract I just didn't think much of it at the time.

Stheno

pumpkin222 wrote: »

There were no start or end dates it was exactly a year from the date I signed it. I have been working in this company since 6th July 2014. I know it was very stupid of me not to go through the contract I just didn't think much of it at the time.

What date were you let go exactly?

pumpkin222

Stheno wrote: »

What date were you let go exactly?[/quote

16 days ago

davo10

pumpkin222 wrote: »

There were no start or end dates it was exactly a year from the date I signed it. I have been working in this company since 6th July 2014. I know it was very stupid of me not to go through the contract I just didn't think much of it at the time.

If the contract was for 12 months and you were let go at the end of it, then that implies it was a fixed term contract. Also the fact that they didn't need you/you didn't work for six week suggests it was a zero hour contract.

Op, you really should know the terms under which you are employed and never sign a contract without reading/understanding it. You might have to put this down as a lesson learned and a reminder not to be so blaise the next time.

Stheno

pumpkin222 wrote: »

Stheno wrote: »

What date were you let go exactly?[/quote

16 days ago

That's less than a year you were there, so you've no real rights. You can be let go at any time within the first year.

pumpkin222

davo10 wrote: »

If the contract was for 12 months and you were let go at the end of it, then that implies it was a fixed term contract. Also the fact that they didn't need you/you didn't work for six week suggests it was a zero hour contract.

Op, you really should know the terms under which you are employed and never sign a contract without reading/understanding it. You might have to put this down as a lesson learned and a reminder not to be so blaise the next time.

Thanks for the advice I was only asking what my rights were as this is my first job ever

davo10

pumpkin222 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice I was only asking what my rights were as this is my first job ever

Op I don't mean to be short with you but you seem unsure when your start and end dates are, what type of contract you had and what your contracted hours were. What we can tell you is that after one year you acquire more employee rights such as access to the Employment Tribunal ( you posted that you were let go 16 days before the full year of employment) but without actually knowing the broad details of your contract, the best advice is to move on and be more careful in the future.

pumpkin222

davo10 wrote: »

Op I don't mean to be short with you but you seem unsure when your start and end dates are, what type of contract you had and what your contracted hours were. What we can tell you is that after one year you acquire more employee rights such as access to the Employment Tribunal, but without actually knowing the broad details of your contract, the best advice is to move on and be more careful in the future.

No I understand completely. But surely I cannot be let go without fair warning even if I am on a zero hour contract?

Mrs OBumble

pumpkin222 wrote: »

But surely I cannot be let go without fair warning even if I am on a zero hour contract?

Yes, you can.

You can be let go for no reason at all during the first year. No warning and no explanation needed.

TheDoc

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes, you can.

You can be let go for no reason at all during the first year. No warning and no explanation needed.

I've seen you mention this a few times on various threads. Do you mind posting a link to legislation or citizens information where you are reading this?

Sounds like its a lesson learned for the OP who didn't read the contract properly. You should always read your employment contract with a fine tooth comb.

But most employment contracts have defined probationary periods and sensible employers would have stipulations regarding notice periods and early termination.

I'd love to know where this 1 year thing is coming from, as I've witnessed instances where HR and management have had their hands tied trying to get rid of incompetent staff who took a dive, productivity wise, off a cliff after a six month probationary period.

davo10

TheDoc wrote: »

I've seen you mention this a few times on various threads. Do you mind posting a link to legislation or citizens information where you are reading this?

Sounds like its a lesson learned for the OP who didn't read the contract properly. You should always read your employment contract with a fine tooth comb.

But most employment contracts have defined probationary periods and sensible employers would have stipulations regarding notice periods and early termination.

I'd love to know where this 1 year thing is coming from, as I've witnessed instances where HR and management have had their hands tied trying to get rid of incompetent staff who took a dive, productivity wise, off a cliff after a six month probationary period.

The Doc, have a look at the "unfair dismissals" page on the citizensinformation.ie website. In the "rules" section you will see that in order to make a claim for unfair dismissal under the relevant legislation, you must have at least one year service.

seamus

TheDoc wrote: »

I've seen you mention this a few times on various threads. Do you mind posting a link to legislation or citizens information where you are reading this?

Sounds like its a lesson learned for the OP who didn't read the contract properly. You should always read your employment contract with a fine tooth comb.

But most employment contracts have defined probationary periods and sensible employers would have stipulations regarding notice periods and early termination.

I'd love to know where this 1 year thing is coming from, as I've witnessed instances where HR and management have had their hands tied trying to get rid of incompetent staff who took a dive, productivity wise, off a cliff after a six month probationary period.

So, the unfair dismissals act doesn't apply until a year is up.

This doesn't mean that there's nothing you can do if dismissed in your first year, but it does mean that you have no statutory protection. That is, the unfair dismissals act requires a set of criteria before someone can be dismissed. Failure to adhere to these criteria is easily actionable.

If you're dismissed within the first year, then you have no statutory protection, no set of criteria required in order to legally dismiss you. Your only options then are under contract law or tort law. Tort law is unlikely to get you very far, that would be a complex one.

Contract law is a potential goer - if the company fails to stick to its own HR processes when dismissing you, or is otherwise in breach of your employment contract, then you can take a case against them for breach of that contract.

But this is a long and expensive process which is unlikely to yield anything approaching decent compensation for the employee.

So for all intents and purposes, going down the route of suing for breach of contract is impractical and therefore functionally unavailable if you are dismissed in your first year. That's even assuming the company has breached contract. If the company doesn't state any disciplinary processes in your contract, then you can't sue them for firing you for any reason in your first year.

Edit: That's not entirely accurate. There are some statutory protections in relation to pregnancy, as well as the equal status act. But for most scenarios these won't be relevant.

QuinDixie

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes, you can.

You can be let go for no reason at all during the first year. No warning and no explanation needed.

That is not true, certain reasons are banned by law and there is no minimum time in job required.

TheDoc

OK so yeah, that is making a claim for unfair dismissal. That is different to " a company can let you go within a year without reason". That is not accurate, and I just wanted to know where it's coming from as I saw Bumble say it a few times, and I think it's incredibly misleading.

Maybe in certain sectors or roles it might not be worth the effort, but in various professional roles, I find that very misleading. Typically contracts come with very clear indication of probationary periods and notices for terminations.

If I had completed a probation (which is normally a formal process) and was terminated seven months into that contract, you can bet your bollox I'd be pursuing action via a breach of contract. There is a number of issues here, not to mention loss of earnings and potential earnings, but mostly just the fact seven months of my career would have been wasted.

As I said I've seen it countless times where companies want rid of someone outside of the probationary period, but have to go through a number of procedures and processes. Any company I've worked for, or heard of, in my field and various other professional fields would not simply terminate a contract after a six month period, but within a year, and not have made some settlement and agreement with the employee. That is leaving yourself open to big trouble.

Then again these are proffesional companies, with proper policies and procedures. But even most retailers and the likes have these policies and are relevant to staff who have proper contracts.

Maybe not worth your while if its a low end job or something, but I just find that information as a whole very misleading. There is plenty of things you don't have statutory rights for, but that doesn't mean you have no "rights".

davo10

TheDoc wrote: »

OK so yeah, that is making a claim for unfair dismissal. That is different to " a company can let you go within a year without reason". That is not accurate, and I just wanted to know where it's coming from as I saw Bumble say it a few times, and I think it's incredibly misleading.

Maybe in certain sectors or roles it might not be worth the effort, but in various professional roles, I find that very misleading. Typically contracts come with very clear indication of probationary periods and notices for terminations.

If I had completed a probation (which is normally a formal process) and was terminated seven months into that contract, you can bet your bollox I'd be pursuing action via a breach of contract. There is a number of issues here, not to mention loss of earnings and potential earnings, but mostly just the fact seven months of my career would have been wasted.

As I said I've seen it countless times where companies want rid of someone outside of the probationary period, but have to go through a number of procedures and processes. Any company I've worked for, or heard of, in my field and various other professional fields would not simply terminate a contract after a six month period, but within a year, and not have made some settlement and agreement with the employee. That is leaving yourself open to big trouble.

Then again these are proffesional companies, with proper policies and procedures. But even most retailers and the likes have these policies and are relevant to staff who have proper contracts.

Maybe not worth your while if its a low end job or something, but I just find that information as a whole very misleading. There is plenty of things you don't have statutory rights for, but that doesn't mean you have no "rights".

The Doc, Seamus gave you a concise insight into your options if the scenario you outlined arose. If you are employed for less than a year, the Unfair Dismissals Act does not apply unless you were dismissed due to discrimination. You cannot use the Employment Tribunal mechanism to seek redress.

If you have a fixed term contract and it was terminated early, you could litigate for the outstanding amount owed under the terms of the contract but this would be a lengthy and expensive process, the max you could get would be what you were owed and after legal fees you might actually lose money.

So morally, yes it is wrong to terminate a contract early but legally it may not make sense to sue for breach of contract and you cannot use Unfair Dismissals Act unless you are there for over a year. You might say Mrs O'Bumbles posts are misleading but they are in fact on point, unless you are dismissed due to discrimination, there is practically nothing worthwhile you can legally do to the employer.

seamus

TheDoc wrote: »

If I had completed a probation (which is normally a formal process) and was terminated seven months into that contract, you can bet your bollox I'd be pursuing action via a breach of contract. There is a number of issues here, not to mention loss of earnings and potential earnings, but mostly just the fact seven months of my career would have been wasted.

And then when you go to your solicitor who tells you that it'll take two years to even get a first hearing of your case, and it possibly won't conclude for another 18 months after that, you'll start wondering whether it's actually worth your time and effort.
And then when you realise you'll have to pay your solicitor thousands of euro up front to go through the paperwork, with the potential that you will come out with nothing at the end, you will likely decide to move on with your life, especially seeing as you'll have landed another role already.

Pursuing an unfair dismissal is by comparison far simpler and cheaper, and therefore worthwhile. Unless you were on a six figure salary with large bonusses, pursuing a standard breach of contract suit for an employment contract is rarely worth it.

Maybe not worth your while if its a low end job or something, but I just find that information as a whole very misleading. There is plenty of things you don't have statutory rights for, but that doesn't mean you have no "rights".

You have the "right" to sue. You always have that right, in any scenario. That's a given, so it doesn't really need to be said.

The point is that, "They can legally fire you without a reason", is correct. There is no act of law that prevents an employer from firing an employee without reason within the first year (aside from the fringe scenarios mentioned above).

TheDoc

I get what yous are saying. I'm just making the point that it shouldn't be addressed as a "you can be fired within a year, deal with it". I'm not saying thats what Bumble is saying, but can get that vibe in a few threads.

There would be some roles and jobs where an early termination would well be worth going through seeking legal address. For example if I got axed 7 months into a contract, after passing a probationary period outlined in my contract, I'd probably look into taking action, as it would be significant salary for the remainder of that contract.

I've never heard of it before to be honest, I've heard, witnessed, and sat in meetings where a member of staff has been terminated within their probationary period, but never once heard or witnessed someone passing said period, to then be let go within a year in the situation described above. And I vividly remember two instances where the staff involved were absolutely horrendous. Nearly from the day they passed their probation they slacked off massively. The procedures and process outlined by HR(and it was a reputable company) was to fire the staff without leaving room for legal challenge, a number of procedures had to be followed included warnings, training programmes and performance plans.

Anyway I asked for a link that no one has provided, but I'll take your word that statutory rights don't kick in for a year, and before that you are basically expendable to ****(although still finding that hard to be true)