Irish road quality too bad for bicycling

Matthijs

Watching the Tour de France passing through (my native) Netherlands?

You see the perfect and brilliantly smooth asphalt with no patches and holes in it?

Why can't we have that in Ireland? How difficult can it be, to lay down perfect and smooth roads that last long?
I just don't see anything like that here. Even new roads here have a pretty rough surface and seem to detoriate quickly. It's not like a new technology or something, asphalt.

It's the very reason I stopped riding my new bike-to-work bike. I am not going to wreck a 900+ euro bike on these substandard roads. Having to zigzag around potholes (and shattered glass as well) everywhere.

It's the terrible road quality and not the traffic that makes Ireland a bicycle unfriendly country.

Raam

Matthijs wrote: »

Watching the Tour de France passing through (my native) Netherlands?

You see the perfect and brilliantly smooth asphalt with no patches and holes in it?

Why can't we have that in Ireland? How difficult can it be, to lay down perfect and smooth roads that last long?
I just don't see anything like that here. Even new roads here have a pretty rough surface and seem to detoriate quickly. It's not like a new technology or something, asphalt.

It's the very reason I stopped riding my new bike-to-work bike. I am not going to wreck a 900+ euro bike on these substandard roads. Having to zigzag around potholes (and shattered glass as well) everywhere.

It's the terrible road quality and not the traffic that makes Ireland a bicycle unfriendly country.

It's not that bad.

Darkest Horse

Matthijs wrote: »

Watching the Tour de France passing through (my native) Netherlands?

You see the perfect and brilliantly smooth asphalt with no patches and holes in it?

Why can't we have that in Ireland? How difficult can it be, to lay down perfect and smooth roads that last long?
I just don't see anything like that here. Even new roads here have a pretty rough surface and seem to detoriate quickly. It's not like a new technology or something, asphalt.

It's the very reason I stopped riding my new bike-to-work bike. I am not going to wreck a 900+ euro bike on these substandard roads. Having to zigzag around potholes (and shattered glass as well) everywhere.

It's the terrible road quality and not the traffic that makes Ireland a bicycle unfriendly country.

Depart thee back to the Netherlands from whence thy came if thou dost not harbour an agreeable disposition towards the condition of this fine country.

Matthijs

Matthijs wrote: »

Watching the Tour de France passing through (my native) Netherlands?

You see the perfect and brilliantly smooth asphalt with no patches and holes in it?

Why can't we have that in Ireland? How difficult can it be, to lay down perfect and smooth roads that last long?

The tour de france is also called France's "rolling road improvement program"

Simply put the roads are resurfaced for the occasion.

As for not cycling on the bad Irish roads.. HTFU!

funnights74

I think the Irish roads are "patchy" but no need to be leaving your bike at home. Anyway it's character building!!

Eamonnator

Rule 5

The Sparrow

I'm pretty sure if the Tour de France was taking place on those Irish roads, there would also be no potholes.

What you are basically doing is comparing the course for the world's biggest and most prestigious cycling race with the road outside your house and wondering why they are different. It's a bit like going down to the football pitch down the road and wondering why the surface is not as pristine as Wembley Stadium.

That said, I agree that many Irish roads are a complete travesty.

ford2600

Irish road building is generally of a good quality the main problems are
* Local Authority's failing to enforce powers under section 73 of the 1993 Roads Act to properly drain roads
* Our too easy to get road opening licence and again local Authority failure to ensure repairs are of a decent quality. Even good quality reinstatements will weaken a road, but what passes for here leads to road failing well inside it's design life

Not going to change anytime soon so fit 25's use wider rims and MTFU

dermabrasion

The Sparrow wrote: »

I'm pretty sure if the Tour de France was taking place on those Irish roads, there would also be no potholes.

Well we did a spectacular job repairing the roads for the Giro
In fact, Clontarf was then and remains a disgrace.

But, OP I think our heavy asphalt, and general rumble is our parcours. This is how we roll. Suck it up.

Darkglasses

Shock as smaller country with more money to spend has nicer things than us.

shaka

Ireland's road surfaces vary from county to county. It depends on the size of the chip used, for example in some districts in limerick they are using a larger chip which can make for bumpy cycling while roads in cork and Kerry are often smoother from using the smaller chip

The tax man

shaka wrote: »

Ireland's road surfaces vary from county to county. It depends on the size of the chip used, for example in some districts in limerick they are using a larger chip which can make for bumpy cycling while roads in cork and Kerry are often smoother from using the smaller chip

Dublin\Wicklow border line on the featherbeds is a perfect example of this. Nice smooth tarmac all the way up until you enter Wicklow and that stupid resurfacing technique they use.

TireeTerror

I personally think the roads in Ireland are actually really rather good. Fair enough there are a few cross country back roads running east/west which are not the best, but in general the roads are in great condition. Head over the border to NI and you will see how bad the roads are there.

Stokolan

Who needs cobbles when you have Irish back roads

coastwatch

The Sparrow wrote: »

I'm pretty sure if the Tour de France was taking place on those Irish roads, there would also be no potholes.

True, iirc, the routes for the two stages of the '98 Tour here were re-surfaced for it, (about the ony good to come out of it).

Jim Stynes

TireeTerror wrote: »

I personally think the roads in Ireland are actually really rather good. Fair enough there are a few cross country back roads running east/west which are not the best, but in general the roads are in great condition. Head over the border to NI and you will see how bad the roads are there.

Really? I always found southern roads terrible compared to N.I.

Beasty

In my view the roads around where I live (in Fingal) and heading towards Dublin are generally in a pretty poor state. Far too much was invested in an underused motorway network and local authorities simply do not have adequate funding to maintain roads to a decent quality. The repairs they do are often on the cheap with a few poor winters rapidly causing them to deteriorate. There is a lack of long-term investment in the non-motorway network. It's generally better as you get further away from Dublin. I think a lot of people around here accept the conditions because they have not really experienced much better

Having said that, it's not going to put me off cycling, and I find motorists in Ireland tend to be quite a bit slower and considerate than their UK counterparts, possibly influenced by the poor road quality.

ROK ON

Much of my cycling is done in West Dublin/Kildare/Meath where roads are in general really good - comparable to many roads I have ridden on in a south of France.
I also ride a lot in South Kerry and West Cork where roads are much heavier but much improved in the past decade.

I seek out some back roads with poor surfaces because they are beautiful and quiet areas to cycle. The poor roads doesn't really bother me - I use a carbon road frame and some 25mm Vittoria Pave - a good tyre with great grip on bad roads.

The only time I have felt a road was so bad that it was unsafe was in a descent on the Evil200 a few years back. Problem was the road was very narrow, full of sheep and deer, a steep gradient (-10%), and huge deep holes. I blew two tyres and destroyed a brand new front wheel. Other than that many roads are perfectly pleasant to cycle on.

The poorer the road the less likely to encounter vehicle traffic I find - and what is there has to drive cautiously in my opinion.

There is an Audax in August that has five gravel sections and if I can get a loan of a CX bike then I would love to do it. Sorry I sold my CX bike five years ago.

smacl

ROK ON wrote: »

I seek out some back roads with poor surfaces because they are beautiful and quiet areas to cycle.

Same, and our relatively low population density means that these L-roads are as often as not devoid of traffic. For me, some of the back roads in West Cork and Kerry are as good as cycling gets, even if the centre of the road is marked with grass rather than a white line. Love the canal spins as well, and might give the 3 aqueducts a go if I'm in decent shape in August.

kerry4sam

Some people around me on the Ring of Kerry Cycle yesterday were complaining about Healy-Rae and not doing a good job on our Kerry roads!

All I could think was 'was sort of pansy-assed training were they doing if they thought this road surface was bad'. Cycling on this surface builds character; it builds strength; more-awareness of your surroundings; makes you a better cyclist than cycling on straight, smooth, issue-free surfaces imo

It was grand. Even the shards of glass that were evident were sweeped over to the extreme left side of the road by some thoughtful people. Pop-holes were clearly marked by other considerate people. <- Those acts take time and effort and probably done by some volunteer too!

Thanks,
Just My Thoughts,
kerry4sam

rollingscone

Bigger tyres, better bike maintenance OP.

As much as we dream of billiard table road surfaces we have what we have and with an inefficiently dispersed population and a borderline Obesocracy using cars for every journey from 5km commutes to visiting the next door neighbours we have to make lemonade with the lemons presented.

Probably your bike is much tougher than you give it credit for and you will have opportunities to enjoy both the smooth roads and some rough and tumble (hopefully only figurative tumbling).

Well wear OP and feel free to ask the forum for advice on how to manage any specific challenges.

outfox

shaka wrote: »

while roads in cork and Kerry are often smoother from using the smaller chip

Don't know if I agree with this. Maybe East Cork roads are OK. But Mid Cork, South Cork and West Cork roads are among the worst in the country, because of CCC's insistence on using tar and chip everywhere, which makes the surface very rough and 'dead'. The regional roads and primary local roads are the worst. Boreens are generally better, for some reason.
Personally I think the problem is the high percentage of boreens in the middle of nowhere which eat up all the resources. IMO, if you chose to build a house up some ****e of a third class road 10 km from the nearest village, that's your problem. Taxpayers shouldn't be paying for your road. Half of these roads should be delisted. The money saved would put nice smooth asphalt on much of the regional network.

Nekarsulm

The practice of "surfacing" tural roads, whereby a machine sprays watery tar onto the surface and then layer dry chippings on top, is a nightmare to ride on. Dangerous even for cars. They than leave it alone for a few weeks till the traffic rolls in whatever gravel is going to bind to the tar, before running a sweeper over the surface.

Beasty

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The practice of "surfacing" tural roads, whereby a machine sprays watery tar onto the surface and then layer dry chippings on top, is a nightmare to ride on. Dangerous even for cars. They than leave it alone for a few weeks till the traffic rolls in whatever gravel is going to bind to the tar, before running a sweeper over the surface.

And it's a very poor short-term fix. I would prefer them to wait until they can do it properly (I'm convinced that would also save money long - I'd much prefer a road surface that's going to last 20 years to one where the old ruts start reappearing after a couple)

Nekarsulm

The practices of the local ccouncil beggars belief. Twenty years ago they compulsory purchased and fenced off pieces of land with the intention of straightening some bendy roads nearby. Last summer work began.
They didn't straighten the bends sat all, they widened them! Now parts of the roads are three llanes wide on the bends, while in between, a car meetinga truck will have to slow to15 mph yto avoid falling off the edgeof the tar.

magicbastarder

worth mentioning that the total length of road network per capita in NL is less than one third the figure for IE - so we simply have more roads to maintain than in NL. this is obviously due to our relatively highly populated rural areas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_road_network_size

Killmurf

I came across a really bad example of resurfacing works this weekend between Castledermot and Kilcullen - the stretch between Moone and Crookstown. Some people reading this may know it as a local route, but its part of the Leinster Loop cycle. This stretch of road had a great surface - both for car and bikes - and a decent hard shoulder were the surface just as good as the main road. The local CC decide to resurface this section last week - presumably because its been a few years since it was last done - and have completely ruined it. Hard shoulder is now impossible to cycle on now with all the loose chippings on it, and will be be for some time. Its really annoying that they should ruin a good surface with this shoddy resurfacing works.

ThisRegard

Matthijs wrote: »

It's the very reason I stopped riding my new bike-to-work bike.

So what are you going to use it for?

Melodeon

ronoc wrote: »

The tour de france is also called France's "rolling road improvement program"

Simply put the roads are resurfaced for the occasion.

^
|
|
This!

It's a bit like how the queen thinks the whole world smells of fresh paint

setanta159

In many respects the OP is correct. I've been living in the Netherlands these past 4 years and cycling extensively...road bike and town bike to work etc. I cannot recall encountering a single pothole in all my time here. The roads are immaculate as are the cycle paths of the country's huge cycling network. I doubt very much the Dutch made any adjustments to the road surface for the TDF, they simply wouldn't need to. On my frequent visits home (where I keep another road bike) it amazes me just how dangerous cycling in Ireland is by comparison. The quality of roads in Ireland vary greatly but tend towards being pretty poor. As for our cycling paths...well let's not even to there. On the plus side, and it is a significant plus, cycling in the Netherlands is tedious when compared to Ireland...flat as a pancake (apart from Limburg) and generally uninspiring scenery. It's just a pity we don't have road surfaces or a network more conducive to cycling as we have everything else to make Ireland a must visit destination for cyclists everywhere.

magicbastarder

setanta159 wrote: »

On the plus side, and it is a significant plus, cycling in the Netherlands is tedious when compared to Ireland...flat as a pancake

this is another factor in the cost of road maintenance here - we have three times as many roads per capita, plus a lot of them are more expensive to maintain.

what's the maximum incline a steamroller can go up?

TireeTerror

Jim Stynes wrote: »

Really? I always found southern roads terrible compared to N.I.

Absolutely. I dont know what it is, but since moving to Ireland over 4 years ago, all the southern people Ive met go on about the great condition of the roads in the North and how its a disgrace the state of the |Republic roads. Yet I live right next to the border and Im crossing over the border multiple times per day and the very second you cross over you feel how rough the surface is and how full of potholes they are. Its literally startling how much worse the roads are the very instant you cross over the border. In fact in a lot of places, on the smaller roads there isnt anything to let you know you have crossed over, not even the usual MPH or KPH warning sign, but you know youve switched because there is a line in the road where the two countries meet and the southern one is usually always way way better in ever y way possible.

Jim Stynes

TireeTerror wrote: »

Absolutely. I dont know what it is, but since moving to Ireland over 4 years ago, all the southern people Ive met go on about the great condition of the roads in the North and how its a disgrace the state of the |Republic roads. Yet I live right next to the border and Im crossing over the border multiple times per day and the very second you cross over you feel how rough the surface is and how full of potholes they are. Its literally startling how much worse the roads are the very instant you cross over the border. In fact in a lot of places, on the smaller roads there isnt anything to let you know you have crossed over, not even the usual MPH or KPH warning sign, but you know youve switched because there is a line in the road where the two countries meet and the southern one is usually always way way better in ever y way possible.

I can't speak about the border areas but from driving around my local roads and close to the towns and belfast, the roads are much better up here. The main time I saw the difference in the roads was when I did the Maracycle from Belfast to Dublin and back a few years ago. The southern road surfaces were absolutely terrible. If you know the Maracycle route you will know the Southern roads that I am talking about.

In saying that the surfaces in the North are still crap compared to other countries.

Sinbad_NI

Can only go by what I've experienced myself. But rural Donegal can be hard work when off the beaten track!!!

Worst thing are those lose chips they throw down and let the traffic do the work... north and south... total pain in the arse... even more dangerous on a motorcycle.

KingBrian2

If your a committed cyclist enthusiast and love cycling bad roads won't put you off. The roads though can be bockedy and that can be really annoying.

Sh1tbag OToole

Be careful what you wish for. As soon as they resurface the roads here they suddenly find the need to put in a load of speedbumps to stop youngsters having fun

Subpopulus

This is a problem that has its roots going back centuries to farming and land division practices that meant that land was continually sublet into ever smaller landholdings, all of which would have required roads to access them. So, as others have pointed out, we have far more roads per capita than most european countries. This is especially bad in places like Cork and Monaghan with intensive land-subdivision and a hillocky topography means that they have far more roads than elsewhere - naturally then these counties usually come at the bottom of road spending per council area lists.

Just have a look at Ireland on Open Street Map with the zoom level set to 10 - you really get a sense of the varying density of our local road network. It gets a bit mental around Skibbereen - http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=10/51.6568/-9.1255

More roads means higher maintenance costs means having to spread the money around more which means using cheaper resurfacing methods such as tar-and-chipping. Thankfully, I'm seeing less and less of this around where I live (East Cork). When longer stretches of road (Even R or L-Class roads) are being repaired they're now using asphalt. It's probably cheaper to use this in the long term since I've seen stretches of road done in asphalt almost 20 years ago and they're still perfect unlike the tar-and-chipping stretches either side of it.

Our higgled-piggeldy topography is also unhelpful - it's difficult to adequately drain roads that go up and down every hundred metres so you often get standing water at the edges of the road where the drainage doesn't work properly. The Netherlands has it handy in that the roads are highly consistent in their straightness and levelness meaning that road drainage works very well, which helps to maintain their roads. Also the Netherlands is very disciplined when it comes to maintaining its infrastructure - they have to be or else the land will be overrun by seawater. Consequently, everything is well-looked after compared to Ireland with it's 'ah shur tis grand' attitude towards almost everything.

Koobcam

If you want good roads in Ireland, go to Wikipedia and search out the longest serving members of Dail Eireann and then see what sort of routes you can figure out in their constituency. It's always struck me as a bit strange how you can be riding along in the middle of nowhere and suddenly you come across a pristine road surface-no particularly good reason for this other than vote-gathering.
I've been over and back between Ireland and Beijing for the past couple of years and the difference in road quality is incredible. Beijing roads are generally well engineered, super-smooth and very very fast. Having said that though, most of the mountain roads around here kind of look the same. The climbs are great, the descents fantastic, but somewhat featureless, and always the same 5-6% gradient. While the roads back in Ireland may be sh*te, there's no doubt they provide great variety and, with the right bike, can be great fun to ride on. The resurfacing techniques need to improve though-Wicklow county council made a complete Bo**ocks of the Sally Gap I remember a year or two back-great example of a resurfaced road being worse and more dangerous than before.

Cookie_Monster

TireeTerror wrote: »

I personally think the roads in Ireland are actually really rather good. Fair enough there are a few cross country back roads running east/west which are not the best, but in general the roads are in great condition. Head over the border to NI and you will see how bad the roads are there.

+1

head down to NZ and try cycling in the countryside. 30% of roads are unpaved!!

That said the rest of them are pretty decent

odyssey06

Actually when the Giro came to town commentators were very impressed at how little standing water there was on the roads despite heavy rain... So I don't think you are ever going to get slick roads like on the continent... But most other things about the state of the roads is indefensible...

Johnny Jukebox

Koobcam wrote: »

The resurfacing techniques need to improve though-Wicklow county council made a complete Bo**ocks of the Sally Gap I remember a year or two back-great example of a resurfaced road being worse and more dangerous than before.

If Wicklow spent less on this kind of thing...

http://www.newsscoops.org/?p=1288

They might be able to spend more on the roads....

outfox

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

head down to NZ and try cycling in the countryside. 30% of roads are unpaved!!

It's like that in the US too. IMO, that's the way it should be. It's pointless maintaining a huge network of local secondary and local tertiary roads that cross the country, serving farmsteads and new paddy-mansions.

DaithiMC

"Its the economy stupid".....

The Netherlands: Population: 17 million; Area: 41.5k km^2; Density; 407 /km^2.
Republic of Ireland: Population: 4.6 million; Area: 70.3k km^2; Density; 65 /km^2.

So with 3.7 times the population, and let's assume the same multiple for people who pay "Road Tax", and 1.7 times less land over which to place a road network, its hardly a fair comparison to make. The GDP per capita for both countries is about the same at approximately $48.5k. The obvious solution to having a good road network to compare with The Netherlands is to not have any more roads built outside Leinster and concentrate on that until it is as good, then select the next province to focus on - I think we should decide that with a bike race.