WW2 Panther tank seized from pensioner's cellar

Jawgap

Now that's what I call a man-shed........


WW2 Panther tank seized from pensioner's cellar

Police in northern Germany have seized a World War Two tank which was being kept in a pensioner's cellar.

The Panther tank was removed from the 78-year-old's house in the town of Heikendorf, along with a variety of other military equipment, including a torpedo and an anti-aircraft gun, Der Tagesspiegel website reports. It wasn't an easy job to get it all out - the army had to be called in with modern-day tanks to haul the Panther from its cellar. It took about 20 soldiers almost nine hours to extract the tank - which was without its tracks - and push it onto a low-loader, the report says. As the surreal scene unfolded, local residents gathered at the end of the driveway to watch.

galwaycyclist

Spoil sports

sparky42

Hope they end up in a museum, the Panther's are kind of rare collectables aren't they?

JPNelsforearm

Seems like overkill from the government, as usual.

B17G

sparky42 wrote: »

Hope they end up in a museum, the Panther's are kind of rare collectables aren't they?

Hope they do. The Panther looks in great nick. Is that a flak version of an 88? Are those genuine kill rings on it's barrel I wonder?

Buona Fortuna

Wow. Thanks for posting that Jawgap.

I obviously have competely inadequate views of what constitutes a cellar. Mine is a few rusty tools and the odd bottle of wine .

When I read anti-aircraft gun, I wasn't exactly expecting that 88.

sparky42

B17G wrote: »

Hope they do. The Panther looks in great nick. Is that a flak version of an 88? Are those genuine kill rings on it's barrel I wonder?

From what I've read on another forum, the Panther is acttally a Post War one built by the British for testing. He seems to have a massive collection, which includes a Torpedo.

Seems the problem he had was that the rules changed on how people could keep tanks/IFV's they now have to have holes cut in the turret/glacis/sides in case the cops need to stop a rampage.

tac foley

I would have thought that the, uh, shortage of 75mm ammunition might have put a stop to a rampage. However, I recall a nut-job running amok in a National Guard M60 a few years back until a trooper got his hand into the turret and blew his head off.

BTW, if any of you recall a magazine from the 80's called 'After the battle', then look at issue #20 - it covers this tank's history in some detail.

As fo value, well that is as near incalculable as it is possible to be. The late Jacques Littlefield, an armour collecor in CA, admitted to having spent around $3M just rebuilding one, let alone getting one in brand-new condition. Here in UK, Mr Wheatcroft, another collector of armoured vehicles, is well on the way to that amount in his project. I'm not usually a betting man, but I'm willing to wager that the net value of that Panther is going to be around $10M, and not a cent less.

tac

Dr Crippen

Very father ted ��

Savage93

sparky42 wrote: »

From what I've read on another forum, the Panther is acttally a Post War one built by the British for testing. He seems to have a massive collection, which includes a Torpedo.

Seems the problem he had was that the rules changed on how people could keep tanks/IFV's they now have to have holes cut in the turret/glacis/sides in case the cops need to stop a rampage.

`Link please?

Buona Fortuna

There's a similar thing as Tac says with tractors. I have a restored TE20 and just up the road is a guy restoring TE20s - he ain't interested in selling them because as he says the most he'll get is 5k - he has spent 20k restoring.

I'm facinated by this guy. If I ever win the lottery this is what I'm getting - probably followed by a divorce .

tac foley

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Very father ted ��

Father Ted [winking] - 'Uh, Father McGuire, dijjja ever let the big cat out of the cellar?'

Father McGuire - 'Ah, the uh, BIG CAT, Ted? Right. Gotcha. 'Tanks' for reminding me...we'll be getting the FLAK now from Bishop Brennan, no doubt'.

tac

sparky42

Savage93 wrote: »

`Link please?

Sorry it's from a German poster in another Forum, he didn't post a link but here's what he said:

I think what might be the case is that the tank was demilled based on 1970s or so standards. Which have changed since then (every couple years), and the required changes to the tank weren't made. The rules changed somewhat majorly around 1991 with the CFE treaty, i think. The tank was apparently bought in 1977.

Current guideline from 1999 for tanks that remain mobile requires - apart from properly permanently deactivating the main gun, machine guns and smoke grenade launchers on the vehicle - also cutting at least 14 (!) very large pieces from the turret and chassis armour and replacing them with sheet metal. Among other things this includes four 30x40 cm pieces cut from each side of the chassis and replaced by sheet metal, which unless they did a really excellent job doesn't seem to have been done here.

kato wrote: »

The idea obviously is that armored vehicles can not be used in criminal activity if the police can shoot through its sides.

Required holes are two 50x50cm per side in the turret, one 50x60cm on top of glacis and one on bottom, four 30x30cm each side in the chassis. Additionally, armour on the driver's compartment for driver and co-driver has to be removed. For APCs/IFVs additional removals have to be made for any access doors. In each case that's not load-bearing structure if the person demilling the vehicle knows what they're doing. The holes in the armour may be covered over with maximum 3mm thick sheet metal.

The alternative is CFE-compliant demilitarization. No holes, but you need to fill the engine compartment and the gun with either concrete or polymer and physically permanently damage the gun's stabilization equipment.

Demilitarization is only required for privately owned weapons of war. State museums may keep non-demilitarized weapons of war, but need to obtain a number of extra permits and specially account for them.

---

The person also legally owned a number of small arms. During an unrelated razzia, police found these to be improperly stored, which triggered weapon-related charges and an ongoing "reliability check" into whether that person may own weapons as well as bringing in a professional to gauge the legality of the multiple military weapons the person owned.

The Panther, a 8.8cm FlaK gun and a torpedo were apparently classified as weapons of war, i.e. not properly demilitarized. Police only confiscated those items on the premises classified as weapons, including those three above, a few dozen small rifles.
A number of additional weapons of war that were properly demilitarized - including a V1 cruise missile - were not confiscated. Similarly, weapons the person legally owned - mostly pistols and some rifles, also bladed weapons - were not confiscated.

Aemtler

tac foley wrote: »

I would have thought that the, uh, shortage of 75mm ammunition might have put a stop to a rampage. However, I recall a nut-job running amok in a National Guard M60 a few years back until a trooper got his hand into the turret and blew his head off.



tac

Is this what you were thinking about?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XnUoUKEIGoo

Dr Strange

Jawgap wrote: »

Now that's what I call a man-shed........


WW2 Panther tank seized from pensioner's cellar

Proper collector! I wish I'd had a look into his cellar before they found all this.

tac foley

I'm sure that a neighbour would have noticed the collector setting up a V1 launch ramp in his back yard. They DO tend to stick out a bit, after all, that's why they were located in WW2...

As for the legitimacy of the de-miling, there can be no doubt whatsoever as to the extent of that. At least 25% of the hull and superstructure was replaced during the reconstruction, and since ALLKETT has been out of business for a while, the likelihood of it having been real genuine armour plate of the correct gauge and constitution is hardly likely.

The gun, too, has had its original dimension and shape restored, since it had been cut off by about 65% whilst in the scrapyard.

See - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=173857&start=120

I hope that the collector sues the socks off the over-zealous local lawman, and gets his beautiful tank back.

Seems that they couldn't screw him for his collection of paintings, so they went after his military stuff instead.

The Fourth Reich is alive and well.

tac

Wibbs

Over the years on other forums I've read of a couple of similar, if far less dramatic incidences of this kinda heavy handedness when the "authorities" particularly in Germany got wind of collections and confiscated them. In nearly every case it was the German WW2 stuff that was targeted and often Allied stuff was left alone. I remember reading of one guy who had a break in and called the cops to report it and upon seeing his collection impounded the lot on the grounds that some hadn't been properly deactivated(they took the lot mind you). I read of another collector of WW2 aircraft cockpit panels built up over many years and his entire collection was removed. In that case it was on the grounds of radiation hazard. Fine, they can be "hot" alright, but they also took his panels where no radium was involved(it was expensive stuff and fragile so a few designs had paint that lit up under UV light and had UV light source at the top of the panel). Actually such cockpit instruments are technically illegal to send by post in the EU. There was talk of that being extended to vintage watches with radium(and non encapsulated Tritium) dials. Again technically speaking they would already be covered by the legislation so illegal to post. They're also covered under disposal of radioactive materials. Enforcement seems to be non existent mind you. Big name auction houses can hold very public sales of vintage watches coated in the stuff and nothing is said and if you put a geiger counter near an early 60's Rolex submariner you'd get a lot of buzzing. Still I'd not be surprised to see that some over enthusiastic pencil pusher makes it a mission to enforce the laws and that stuff gets clamped down on in the future.

tac foley

Calling the gentleman a 'Pensioner' is like calling the Duke of Edinburgh a pensioner. Let's not get maudlin, folks, the owner of this little lot is a multi-millionaire wherever he lives.

tac

Tony EH

sparky42 wrote: »

Hope they end up in a museum, the Panther's are kind of rare collectables aren't they?

Very rare and that Panther Ausf.G is in great nick. I wonder if it's in it's original dunkelgelb colours too.

The 88's colour is interesting too. If it's the original panzergrau, it looks a lot bluer than I would have imagined.

But then again, photos are terrible for colour recognition.

Tony EH

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

There's a similar thing as Tac says with tractors. I have a restored TE20 and just up the road is a guy restoring TE20s - he ain't interested in selling them because as he says the most he'll get is 5k - he has spent 20k restoring.

I'm facinated by this guy. If I ever win the lottery this is what I'm getting - probably followed by a divorce .

ha ha...

Jesus, my wife goes mad about 1/72 scale models. I think she'd take a hit out on me if I was to start messing around with that gear.

:pac:

jmayo

Jawgap wrote: »

Now that's what I call a man-shed........

When they said anti aricraft gun I imagined one of those small two wheel Flak 30 jobs, not a full 88.
How the hell did he get that stuff into a cellar in the first place.

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

There's a similar thing as Tac says with tractors. I have a restored TE20 and just up the road is a guy restoring TE20s - he ain't interested in selling them because as he says the most he'll get is 5k - he has spent 20k restoring.

I'm facinated by this guy. If I ever win the lottery this is what I'm getting - probably followed by a divorce .

Is your TE20 petrol or TVO by any chance ?

Jawgap

for anyone looking to amass a similar collection - fill yer boots

http://armyjeeps.net/armor1.htm

The working Stuart / Honey replica with the propane/oxygen firing gun would be a nice toy to have!

dandyelevan

I just showed this post to herself indoors.
She might stop complaining about my collection of old Army bicycles !

Wibbs

Want!

Buona Fortuna

jmayo wrote: »

Is your TE20 petrol or TVO by any chance ?

Diesel.

Jawgap

Wibbs wrote: »

Want!

Is it my imagination or does the gun look like a bit of Wavin jammed into the turret receiver!

tac foley

At least three people in my gun club have at least one kind of Alvis CVRT or another. One of them has a Scimitar, a Samaritan AND a Sabre. Great fun, too, with the diesel-engined power pack rather than the costy Jaguar unit, and, with their resilient rubber-pad tracks, totally road-legal, too.

Here in yUK, with many of them over 25 years old, they are exempt from road tax as well.

Buy one, why don't you?

tac

tac foley

Jawgap wrote: »

Is it my imagination or does the gun look like a bit of Wavin jammed into the turret receiver!

It's a 30mm RARDEN cannon, the world's slowest firing and slowest to load auto-cannon. It's thin-looking because it IS thin. It might look weedy but it will poke your eye out at quite a distance if the gunner gets it right.

Would I be right in assuming that you mean the mantlet, rather than 'receiver'?

BTW, the example in Wibb's link is in sh!te state - in fact, TBH, I've never seen one as bad as that. It's also WAAAAAAAY overpriced, too. Around £15 - 18K seems to be the mark here in UK, but of course, you don't have to pay the 20% VAT like we do. This one might do ya- lick of paint and some general tidying up and BYU! Also can be had with valid FAC as well, if you can afford the ammunition...http://www.milweb.net/classifieds/large_image.php?ad=77573&cat=1

Here is something different - why not go for the whole hog? http://www.exarmyvehicles.com/offer/tracked-vehicles/other-tracked-vehicles/self-propelled-gun-2s7-pion

tac

Jawgap

tac foley wrote: »

It's a 30mm RARDEN cannon, the world's slowest firing and slowest to load auto-cannon. It's thin-looking because it IS thin. It might look weedy but it will poke your eye out at quite a distance if the gunner gets it right.

Would I be right in assuming that you mean the mantlet, rather than 'receiver'?

tac

Yes, I couldn't think of the correct word!

_Puma_

Video of a Panther going up against a Sherman and a Pershing in Cologne in 1945

Wasn't there some tv Programme doing the rounds there recently that restored tanks. Dont know if they did a Panther but seem to rememberer a T34 they pulled out from a lake in the Ukraine.

tac foley

Mé logh duit.

tac

Yemowt

I wonder how they came into his possession. I would not think that he would have bought them off of somebody as the Germans would have probably banned the sale of any past equipment and during the cold war era, I am pretty sure somebody must have seen the tank and even if it was in bad condition, would have notified local authorities.

tac foley

Yeah, sneakin' THAT baby past the missus must have proved tricky.

'What tank is that, hon? Oh, THAT tank. I've had it ages - I'm amazed you never noticed it before now.....'

tac

Tony EH

Is that the male version of "Oh...this old thing? I've had this for ages."

:pac:

Jawgap

I think I'd go with the 'porn' excuse - "I was only looking after it for a friend."

gally74

tac foley wrote: »

I would have thought that the, uh, shortage of 75mm ammunition might have put a stop to a rampage. However, I recall a nut-job running amok in a National Guard M60 a few years back until a trooper got his hand into the turret and blew his head off.

BTW, if any of you recall a magazine from the 80's called 'After the battle', then look at issue #20 - it covers this tank's history in some detail.

As fo value, well that is as near incalculable as it is possible to be. The late Jacques Littlefield, an armour collecor in CA, admitted to having spent around $3M just rebuilding one, let alone getting one in brand-new condition. Here in UK, Mr Wheatcroft, another collector of armoured vehicles, is well on the way to that amount in his project. I'm not usually a betting man, but I'm willing to wager that the net value of that Panther is going to be around $10M, and not a cent less.

tac

I walked around littlefelds yard shed etc for the auction last year, some experience

Jawgap

In the same vein......

Tank buyer has to move out of two-bedroom flat near Bristol

A man living in a two-bedroom flat near Bristol has had to move house after winning a tank in an online auction.

Jeff Woolmer put a bid on the seven-tonne ex-Canadian army tank on a specialist auction site.

He said: "I'd forgotten all about it and then at work I had a call saying 'Hello sir you've just bought a tank'."

With "tank parking a bit of a problem" at his flat, Mr Woolmer said he has had to move to a larger house on the outskirts of the city to park it.
Mr Woolmer, who works as a stress engineer on the Bloodhound Project in Avonmouth, said he bought the tank for £9,000 from Witham Specialist Vehicles.

tac foley

'snot former Canadian. The CDF never had these vehicles, or any other of the CVRT series, in service. It might have been based at CFB Suffield, supporting the British Army on that large exercise area in Alberta, but not TOS any Canadian unit.

Looks black and green to me - that's probably British.

Great fun they are, too, one of our gun-club members has the Scimitar version with the 30mm cannon and the up-rated Perkins diesel engine.

tac