Why is the Irish planning process so Slow?

bob90909

Any ideas Why the Irish planning process so Slow?
It took a Full 12 weeks to have a planning application replied to by the council, Thats 12 weeks of mortgage payments if your not living in the place,
Then we get a reply from the council that completely contradicts their area development plan which demonstrates the planner never even read the area development plan and conditions that tie us to a house in the neighborhood as a president, when it was built in the 70's with NO planning application at all!
So we are now on to the bord pleanala ... another 4 months!!! Not "up to " 4 months or "no longer than" 4 months ....im told it takes the full 4 months ... at least!

So has anyone any idea what they do with it in that 4 months . Is it sitting on some overpaid under worked civil servants desk until the last week of the 4 months until they have some alarm set to get up and take a look at it ?
It is completely infuriating! adding to that, I find out the planners in many cases, have absolutely no qualifications in the area they are working in and are under no obligation to undergo any training or certifications in order to retain that job.
Its this type of unreasonable, nontransparent process that feeds the perception that civil servants simply sit in their sheltered jobs for years expecting pay rises and a fat pension at the end without being accountable to anyone, which is not always true.

Does anyone know Is there any way to find out who the planner is and complain about them for incompetency, or to get this process accelerated?

BryanF

Bob i appreciate that the planning process seems tedious, but is there any one particular question from this rant that you would actually like an answer to?

sydthebeat

we're fairly average to be honest, be lucky youre not applying in portugal

Dudda

What I find the most annoying is just before they are due to issue a decision they request further information and drag it out even further. As you can log onto the council websites and view applications you can see when applications are submitted, the various dates and andy requests for further information. One council which I won't name requests further information on most of their small residential applications and most of the requests for additional information are laughable. They do this so they have more applications on their books and make them look busier.

Once you know this happens in advance you can inform the client and it can be incorporated into a programme at an early stage.

Gumbo

bob90909 wrote: »

Any ideas Why the Irish planning process so Slow?
It took a Full 12 weeks to have a planning application replied to by the council, Thats 12 weeks of mortgage payments if your not living in the place,
Then we get a reply from the council that completely contradicts their area development plan which demonstrates the planner never even read the area development plan and conditions that tie us to a house in the neighborhood as a president, when it was built in the 70's with NO planning application at all!
So we are now on to the bord pleanala ... another 4 months!!! Not "up to " 4 months or "no longer than" 4 months ....im told it takes the full 4 months ... at least!

So has anyone any idea what they do with it in that 4 months . Is it sitting on some overpaid under worked civil servants desk until the last week of the 4 months until they have some alarm set to get up and take a look at it ?
It is completely infuriating! adding to that, I find out the planners in many cases, have absolutely no qualifications in the area they are working in and are under no obligation to undergo any training or certifications in order to retain that job.
Its this type of unreasonable, nontransparent process that feeds the perception that civil servants simply sit in their sheltered jobs for years expecting pay rises and a fat pension at the end without being accountable to anyone, which is not always true.

Does anyone know Is there any way to find out who the planner is and complain about them for incompetency, or to get this process accelerated?

Trying to find the question in here, trying to work out if its a genuine post or a drunken rant???

Sounds like your Agent did not carry out a Pre-Planning Meeting.

MizMix

4 months is nothing! We're years in due to problems tied up with a larger development- we met our architect 6 years ago. We deserve a medal for patience As for your ran' on incompetence, lack of qualifications etc I do feel your pain (e.g. we were queried on the lack of windows/starkness of the North elevation! Absolutely no idea of passive or energy conservation principles). But honestly and relatively speaking if you get PP in another 4 months you're not doing too bad

bob90909

Perhaps my question was a bit "ranty" but Bryan and Claire if you read it fully you'd see there is definitely a question in there.
I suppose the frustration came through *slightly* in my last post but I'm surprised someone hasn't not gone postal in the council offices out of frustration. nod to @MizMix you must have the patience of a saint.
Just Because other countries are more tedious and more bureaucratic doesn't justify us being tedious and bureaucratic

@kceire, re: pre-planning. A complete waste of additional time. The people reviewing your application are not even obliged to turn up at your meeting.
@Bryan :
If you cant find a question in there I suppose it would be, Can anyone tell me what the hell are they doing for exactly 4 months with peoples planning applications?

Do they deal with it in week 1 and leave it sitting there for the next 15weeks before they get around to telling anyone
or do they leave it sitting there for 15 weeks and deal with it in week 16... (more likely)

sydthebeat

planning application process:

weeks 1- 5:
application made, file validated and planning file created
documents scanned and uploaded
local authority counter top planning list updated
application reviewed to determine if copy needs to be sent to state bodies (an taisce, irish fisheries, dept of heritage etc)
one copy from the 6 provided are sent to local area engineer, roads section, area planner, various other local authority engineers, HSE, local health officer etc.
these engineers review file, and make site visit if determined to be warranted.
reports written and send to planing file within the 5 week period.
any submissions or observations reviewed, receipted and acknowledged.

weeks 5 - 8
Planner opens file with ALL reports, submissions etc contained
planner reviews file, reviews previous applications on site and visits site
after site visit planner reverts to local town development plan, county development plan, national spatial strategy and any other special development plans which affect the application.
planner makes decision or determines more information is required, planners report drafted
If decision is made planner ensures decision is reviewed by senior planner.
planning conditions or reason for refusal are drafted.
planning decision signed off by chief administrator of planning section.
copy of decision sent to applicant, objectors and any relevant state body
online file updated continuously.

week 8 - 12
statutory period in which an appeal to an bord pleanala is made by applicant of objectors or relevant state bodies.
if no appeal, final grant of permission drafted, signed off by county manager and sent to applicant.
planners reports and any other sensitive reports scanned and uploaded.


so your right, they sit around for 4 months twiddling their thumbs till someone p!sses out a decision :rolleyes:

partyguinness

Some of my closest friends are town planners with various LAs up and down the country.

They have admitted to me they will often ask for BS info at the very end of the 12 week process simply because they have not looked at the file and are just buying time.

I personally know 2 guys that took 12 months off to go traveling- nice. When they came back, there was no work for them but of course could not get laid off so what did our heros in the LA do? Created a new department and shoved them in there. Ask them exactly what it is they do? They will proudly announce that they havent got a clue but they are very good at going on all expenses foreign trips and using up the allocated budget...

One such friend frequently makes decisions without even visiting the site- cldnt be arse- 'Sure I knwo the area..'

True story- in Galway about 10 years ago a planner gave permisison in a flood plain. Never bothered to go out and see the vast tracts of water. Got fired? No, just moved sideways.

As I socialise with these guys and usually the only non-planner there- I have a bucket load of these stories.

BryanF

partyguinness wrote: »

As I socialise with these guys and usually the only non-planner there- I have a bucket load of these stories.

That's nice,
But this is the construction and planning forum, not the anecdotal/ I heard in pub/ boo planning or council forum.

@ Bob
Sydthebeat has answered your question in great detail. The 12week period is there to ensure everyone has a chance to comment and consider the development. I trust this answers your question.

bob90909

@ sydthebeat Thanks for that its useful and insightful. it also gives you confidence that they actually do something . Is it on their website?

That said, this is the standard planning process, which is reasonable enough. Any idea what they do for the additional 16 weeks of the appeals process given everything is already in the system reviewed and processed in the preceding 12 week process?

Also is there any accountability for someone who is consistently having their decisions appealed?

BryanF

bob90909 wrote: »

@ sydthebeat Thanks for that its useful and insightful. it also gives you confidence that they actually do something . Is it on their website?

That said, this is the standard planning process, which is reasonable enough. Any idea what they do for the additional 16 weeks of the appeals process given everything is already in the system reviewed and processed in the preceding 12 week process?

Also is there any accountability for someone who is consistently having their decisions appealed?

An bord pleanna is completely separate to the council/planning dept

What do you mean by consistently appealed? Are you the client or acting on behalf of a client? Can you give details instead of generalising?

sydthebeat

bob90909 wrote: »

@ sydthebeat Thanks for that its useful and insightful. it also gives you confidence that they actually do something . Is it on their website?

1. That said, this is the standard planning process, which is reasonable enough. Any idea what they do for the additional 16 weeks of the appeals process given everything is already in the system reviewed and processed in the preceding 12 week process?

2. Also is there any accountability for someone who is consistently having their decisions appealed?

1. The an bord pleanala procedure is completely separate from the local authority one. Completely different people, different offices etc. and they must view the application as if it had been made to them in the first instance. I cant go into the specifics of the procedures other than to say it includes all the above report reviews, plus the bords planners report. The decision is actually made by a board of planners rather than individual planner in the local authority. see articles 14 - 25 here

2. there is accountability to every planner who makes a decision as its an open transparent process (which is one significant factor in its time limits). Planning applications received are referred to the Professional Planners for consideration and thereafter for the preparation of the report and recommendations. All planning recommendations are reviewed and countersigned by the Senior Executive Planner, forwarded to the administration team for checking prior to submission to the County Manager.
So im the vast majority of cases there are at least 3 local authority officers involvement in every planning application.