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asking students to leave

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  • 02-07-2015 11:30am
    #1
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭


    Can a school demand a teenage student, aged 13, leave the premises if there was an incident, perhaps compromising health and safety of other students and staff? Does anyone know if there would be anything written down anywhere which would make it acceptable for a school to do that? If it is in the code of discipline, does that make it ok?


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    #2
    gaeilgebeo
    Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    Yes, you would need to refer to the school's code of discipline/health and safety policy.


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    #3
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    gaeilgebeo wrote: »
    Yes, you would need to refer to the school's code of discipline/health and safety policy.

    Has a student ever been told to leave your premises for health and safety reasons? Is it a common occurrence?


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    #4
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Can a school demand a teenage student, aged 13, leave the premises if there was an incident, perhaps compromising health and safety of other students and staff? Does anyone know if there would be anything written down anywhere which would make it acceptable for a school to do that? If it is in the code of discipline, does that make it ok?

    Rest of day suspension is what I would call that.


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    #5
    seagull
    Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭seagull


    I would imagine there might be issues if you're just evicting them from the school grounds on their own. There would be a duty of care.


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    #6
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    it's a bit vague, do you mean leave 'on their own' .. or 'leave' as in be taken by a guardian/parent off the premises?


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    #7
    The Diddakoi
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭The Diddakoi


    I would say it would depend on the 13 year old.

    Many 13 year olds these days seem to spend the majority of the day out and about by themselves with no supervision, until all hours of the night. I would be quite happy to demand one of these students leave the premises if there was an incident, compromising health and safety of other students and staff.

    Don't know how it would stand legally though.


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    #8
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    alf66 wrote: »
    I would say it would depend on the 13 year old.

    Many 13 year olds these days seem to spend the majority of the day out and about by themselves with no supervision, until all hours of the night. I would be quite happy to demand one of these students leave the premises if there was an incident, compromising health and safety of other students and staff.

    Don't know how it would stand legally though.

    It wouldn't.

    The school has a duty of care to minors.

    HAve a read HERE, but i suppose it's all about the details and facts of the case at the time.


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    #9
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Of course it depends on what the circumstances are.

    A 13 year old brandishing a knife could be escorted from the school by the guards.

    The parents of a 13 year old clearly under the influence of alcohol/drugs might be called to take him home.

    A 13 year old whose parents are due to come in to discuss his return to school following a suspension could be asked to leave the premises if he shows up without them.


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    #10
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    It wouldn't.

    The school has a duty of care to minors.

    HAve a read HERE, but i suppose it's all about the details and facts of the case at the time.

    Yes, the school could have a problem if it did this. Your link underlines what a difficult situation schools are faced with in for example students coming early onto the premises and the duty of care needed. Think of this scenario.

    Sean is 13 and lives five miles from his school. He has assaulted Lily and is fuming. He can not be calmed down. He is willing to leave the premises when told but otherwise he will not listen to reason. It is the only way this situation can be defused. The police have been called and are in transit but Sean presents a serious threat which goes when he leaves. Sean is a big fella who can do serious damage. Lily and others perhaps are now safe. But now more problems. Sean's parents can not be contacted. How will he get home? So the school has asked an upset student to leave and God knows what trouble may lie ahead for him. And, dare I say it, for the school.

    In your school, Gebgbegb, has a student ever been told to leave for safety reasons?


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    #11
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Yes, the school could have a problem if it did this. Your link underlines what a difficult situation schools are faced with in for example students coming early onto the premises and the duty of care needed. Think of this scenario.

    Sean is 13 and lives five miles from his school. He has assaulted Lily and is fuming. He can not be calmed down. He is willing to leave the premises when told but otherwise he will not listen to reason. It is the only way this situation can be defused. The police have been called and are in transit but Sean presents a serious threat which goes when he leaves. Sean is a big fella who can do serious damage. Lily and others perhaps are now safe. But now more problems. Sean's parents can not be contacted. How will he get home? So the school has asked an upset student to leave and God knows what trouble may lie ahead for him. And, dare I say it, for the school.

    In your school, Gebgbegb, has a student ever been told to leave for safety reasons?

    No, no , no way a minor would ever be 'told' to leave the premises on their own (During school hours of course... pick up and drop off times are a bit of a grey area though but this isn;t the case above so we'll discount those times).

    I don't see why that student isn't 'baby sat' by whoever's around (even if it means putting them in a different class with another year group).

    It just sounds very odd to me that a student would be told to leave with no-one to collect them (or be there at home at the very very least). It's an abdication of responsibilities....

    It would be no different to throwing a student off a bus on a school tour and telling them to make their own way home!!

    I think there's something missing in this story,

    Lets pick the scenario apart:
    icebergiceberg wrote: »

    Sean is 13 and lives five miles from his school.

    Doesn't matter age and location (if he's a minor he's a minor).. even if he lived next door and he had an accident between the school gates and his home, then who was supposed to be looking after him? The school of course. That's what the parents assumed when he went there that and every morning
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    He has assaulted Lily and is fuming.

    This happens in schools. I've never heard of a school sending someone home though!
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    He can not be calmed down. He is willing to leave the premises when told but otherwise he will not listen to reason.

    If he is willing to leave the premises then it shows that he is listening and negotiating with reason and logic. Therefore he can be calmed down.. He can kick up a fuss all he likes but as long as there's someone there then it's all kosher. If he starts to act violently against a teacher then the question is "What would a reasonable parent do in this situation" (the loco parentis thing)... and that would be to restrain him as a last resort (definitely would need witnesses though for this)
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    He is willing to leave the premises when told but otherwise he will not listen to reason.

    Willing is a bit subjective and laoded.... it implies that he has been given the option to leave by himself... HAs he?
    If he is 'willing' then he is reasoning.
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    It is the only way this situation can be defused.

    What is the actual situation? We will assume by now that the person he assaulted has been removed. Is he still actually acting violently. Maybe the fact that "Sean is a big fella" is inferring that he is acting violently towards the teachers. Is this the case?
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    The police have been called and are in transit but Sean presents a serious threat which goes when he leaves.

    Threat to whom? I would presume Lily's parents have been informed... does Sean live in the vicinity of Lily (is lily his sister?)
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Sean is a big fella who can do serious damage. Lily and others perhaps are now safe.

    Ok so, there is some risk that he may be a threat after school. What difference will it make then getting him to leave the school now (does he even have keys to get into his house?)
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    But now more problems. Sean's parents can not be contacted. How will he get home?

    Just wait and he can go home the same way he normally does when school finishes. He should be kept in the school until parents have been notified.
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    So the school has asked an upset student to leave...

    Hmm there's a difference between an upset student and someone threatening harm of others. Maybe he's threatening self harm!!! Just keep him on-premises as long as possible.
    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    and God knows what trouble may lie ahead for him. And, dare I say it, for the school.

    Is there someone else going to come into this story like a vengeful parent/brother going to meet out justice? or is it back to the 'self harm' threat again. Still think he should be kept as much as is possible to do.

    What would a reasonable parent do if it were the same situation and say the incident kicked off at a GAA club and he similarly lived 5 miles from home... what would the parent do if there was a threat to Sean's life?

    Loads of questions... but i suppose if it's going to go all legal then all of these would have to be teased out down to what exactly happened and was said from all parties. Then I would imagine that it'd all come down to.. did the school go as far as possible to protect all involved as much as they could. Advising him to go home though!!! I've heard of scenarios in the states where they talk people out of threatening situations with guns and knives.... before advising them to go home!!

    Then again, would I be able to diffuse that situation if it is the way i think it is (worst case scenario type way .. I just don't know.


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    #12
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    In my school they are sent home once a parent has been notified that this is happening and agrees. If they don't agree Gardai would be called if there is a risk to others. In my experience after serious assaults they usually walk out anyway.


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    #13
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    No, no , no way a minor would ever be 'told' to leave the premises on their own (During school hours of course... pick up and drop off times are a bit of a grey area though but this isn;t the case above so we'll discount those times).

    I don't see why that student isn't 'baby sat' by whoever's around (even if it means putting them in a different class with another year group).

    I agree with lots of that. But am painting a scenario. He would not be babysat because he would refuse to follow instructions and would refuse to go to another class. A class in which friends of Lily might be in. That would make the situation worse.

    It just sounds very odd to me that a student would be told to leave with no-one to collect them (or be there at home at the very very least). It's an abdication of responsibilities....

    I take your point completely here. But it may be better to tell a student to leave rather than have furniture thrown around the school in a violent rage. It is an immediate solution to a high risk safety issue.

    It would be no different to throwing a student off a bus on a school tour and telling them to make their own way home!!

    I think there's something missing in this story,

    Lets pick the scenario apart:



    Doesn't matter age and location (if he's a minor he's a minor)..

    Someone who lives next door most probably is less exposed to accident etc than someone who lives 5 miles away.
    even if he lived next door and he had an accident between the school gates and his home, then who was supposed to be looking after him? The school of course. That's what the parents assumed when he went there that and every morning



    This happens in schools. I've never heard of a school sending someone home though!



    If he is willing to leave the premises then it shows that he is listening and negotiating with reason and logic. Therefore he can be calmed down.. He can kick up a fuss all he likes but as long as there's someone there then it's all kosher. If he starts to act violently against a teacher then the question is "What would a reasonable parent do in this situation" (the loco parentis thing)... and that would be to restrain him as a last resort (definitely would need witnesses though for this)

    Danger here! Restraint is an option yes. But Sean too would have friends who could act as witnesses also. A properly conducted restraint procedure could just about bring out that black eye landed by Lily five minutes ago. Who knows what other bruises Lily landed that staff are now blamed for.



    Willing is a bit subjective and laoded.... it implies that he has been given the option to leave by himself... HAs he?
    If he is 'willing' then he is reasoning.
    He has been asked to leave and chose to do so. Just because he is acting aggressively does not mean he is not reasoning. He may see aggression as his solution to his problem


    What is the actual situation? We will assume by now that the person he assaulted has been removed. Is he still actually acting violently. Maybe the fact that "Sean is a big fella" is inferring that he is acting violently towards the teachers. Is this the case?


    Threat to whom? I would presume Lily's parents have been informed... does Sean live in the vicinity of Lily (is lily his sister?)

    B]Acting violently and therefore may want to settle old scores with class mates while he is in the mood. Not aggressive with teachers as such.they are not his primary target.[/B]

    Ok so, there is some risk that he may be a threat after school. What difference will it make then getting him to leave the school now
    Because he may want to seek out others.
    (does he even have keys to get into his house?)


    Just wait and he can go home the same way he normally does when school finishes. He should be kept in the school until parents have been notified.
    He will not do as instructed. he will do as he wants. if he wants to run out of the school he will, if he wants to stay he will. Only solution there I feel is gardai to remove.


    Hmm there's a difference between an upset student and someone threatening harm of others. When I say upset I meant acting aggressively. Maybe he's threatening self harm!!! Just keep him on-premises as long as possible. No. As above. That would make matters worse.



    Is there someone else going to come into this story like a vengeful parent/brother going to meet out justice? or is it back to the 'self harm' threat again. Still think he should be kept as much as is possible to do.

    What would a reasonable parent
    do if it were the same situation and say the incident kicked off at a GAA club and he similarly lived 5 miles from home... what would the parent do if there was a threat to Sean's life?

    Loads of questions...
    Agreed
    but i suppose if it's going to go all legal then all of these would have to be teased out down to what exactly happened and was said from all parties. Then I would imagine that it'd all come down to.. did the school go as far as possible to protect all involved as much as they could. Advising him to go home though!!! I've heard of scenarios in the states where they talk people out of threatening situations with guns and knives.... before advising them to go home!!

    Then again, would I be able to diffuse that situation if it is the way i think it is (worst case scenario type way .. I just don't know.

    It is a difficult situation. I don't really know either.


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    #14
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Is this an interview question?


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    #15
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    spurious wrote: »
    Of course it depends on what the circumstances are.

    A 13 year old brandishing a knife could be escorted from the school by the guards.

    The parents of a 13 year old clearly under the influence of alcohol/drugs might be called to take him home.

    A 13 year old whose parents are due to come in to discuss his return to school following a suspension could be asked to leave the premises if he shows up without them.

    Why? What has the child done to warrant that?


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    #16
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Why? What has the child done to warrant that?

    Nothing, but the agreement was that he was not to return to school without parents coming in to meet Year Head/Principal/whoever. It was standard in our place following a suspension. What do they do in your school - call the parents in without the child? Let the child back into class regardless?


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    #17
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    spurious wrote: »
    Nothing, but the agreement was that he was not to return to school without parents coming in to meet Year Head/Principal/whoever. It was standard in our place following a suspension. What do they do in your school - call the parents in without the child? Let the child back into class regardless?

    Nothing? So a child was sent home from school for nothing? That is unjust and very probably illegal.


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    #18
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    It is the same in my school. Students cannot return from suspension without parents attending a meeting first. This is usually organised for during the suspension or early morning on day of return. A student coming in without this meeting taking place will not be admitted - this is clearly laid out in the code of behaviour and in the suspension letter.


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    #19
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Nothing? So a child was sent home from school for nothing? That is unjust and very probably illegal.

    Your school would let them back regardless? Why suspend them in the first place?


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    #20
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    spurious wrote: »
    Your school would let them back regardless? Why suspend them in the first place?

    Parents can come in at another time when they are able to. It is critical child is not out of the system because the parents can not come in.

    What about parents or single parent who can not come to the school? Who have no means? Who don't care? Who are in hospital? Do we wait until they are all right before allowing children back? What has the child done wrong to warrant exclusion? Would DoE stand over a student missing a month because parents not bothered about coming in to the school?

    I am amazed this has not been challenged in the courts.

    (Am having lots of gremlins so don't know if this is going to go off or not. My last two posts just disappeared !)


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    #21
    abff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,730 ✭✭✭abff


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Can a school demand a teenage student, aged 13, leave the premises if there was an incident, perhaps compromising health and safety of other students and staff? Does anyone know if there would be anything written down anywhere which would make it acceptable for a school to do that? If it is in the code of discipline, does that make it ok?

    Is this an actual situation that happened or are you just posing a hypothetical question?


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    #22
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Parents can come in at another time when they are able to. It is critical child is not out of the system because the parents can not come in.

    What about parents or single parent who can not come to the school? Who have no means? Who don't care? Who are in hospital? Do we wait until they are all right before allowing children back? What has the child done wrong to warrant exclusion? Would DoE stand over a student missing a month because parents not bothered about coming in to the school?

    I am amazed this has not been challenged in the courts.

    (Am having lots of gremlins so don't know if this is going to go off or not. My last two posts just disappeared !)

    I don't think they meant the kid did nothing to warrent the suspension, I think ye were talking about two different things.

    Regardless of what the kid did in the other example (it really doesn't matter, point was they had been suspended) it is standard practice in any school I have worked in that a meeting is held between the parents, child and school before returning as most likely there wasn't a long discussion when it happened. It is important for the school to set out what happens going forward following a suspension.

    Clearly if a parent is in hospital the school won't keep a child out of school for months, you are being silly here. In a lot of cases a grandparent might come in, or maybe a close aunt or uncle.
    In reality it is not the school's problem that a parent might have to take an hour off work to attend a meeting, that problem lies with the child who got suspended in the first place. If a parent does not want to have to take time off work to be called into a school they should ensure that their child is behaving correctly.
    In relation to those who "don't care" usually when the threat of their child remaining at home until they do care, they turn up. I have met with several parents who might be seen as "not caring" but they still return with their child when required.


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    #23
    gaeilgebeo
    Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭gaeilgebeo


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    Parents can come in at another time when they are able to. It is critical child is not out of the system because the parents can not come in.

    What about parents or single parent who can not come to the school? Who have no means? Who don't care? Who are in hospital? Do we wait until they are all right before allowing children back? What has the child done wrong to warrant exclusion? Would DoE stand over a student missing a month because parents not bothered about coming in to the school?

    I am amazed this has not been challenged in the courts.

    I disagree.
    Parents should be inconvenienced when their child is suspended from school.
    Working in a very large DEIS school, you will always have several students suspended at any one time.
    Before we introduced a policy whereby parents had to meet with management before the student returned to school, suspensions were far less effective.
    Now that parents have to take some responsibility, we have noticed a decrease in suspensions. It was noted in our WSE.
    There is a lot of paperwork/procedure involved in suspending a student now.
    Schools can't just do it without reason.
    Parents must take some responsibility for their children(this is not always the case), but making them address the suspension is a start.


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