Rate my Stroke

Kurt_Godel

Please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBXhaLo87U

68 lost souls

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBXhaLo87U

Is it me or is your left arm drifting wide and not getting a proper catch at times?

BTH

*I am no expert*

It looks hurried, looks like theres a lack of control, which makes it look like you're getting very little leverage.

Kurt_Godel

68 lost souls wrote: »

Is it me or is your left arm drifting wide and not getting a proper catch at times?

Thanks. Could be- I'll try and watch out for this. Will get a video again from a straighter angle to compare.

Kurt_Godel

BTH wrote: »

*I am no expert*

It looks hurried, looks like theres a lack of control, which makes it look like you're getting very little leverage.

Cheers. I'm not looking for expert advice, just anything that gives food for thought is welcome.

Do you mean a slower, longer stroke?

BTH

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Cheers. I'm not looking for expert advice, just anything that gives food for thought is welcome.

Do you mean a slower, longer stroke?

Not sure it nees to be slower necessarily, but more purposeful, if that makes sense. You dont look to be getting much grab of that water at the top of the stroke.

It's too early to be properly articulate.

Ceepo

On a slightly different note. How do you find the wetsuit. I know you had a few problems in transition lately but apart from that would you recommend it. Thanks

shotgunmcos

*Also no expert*!

Keeping your elbows reasonably high which is good. Decent push at the last quarter.

Why are you breathing every 5?

turning your head before you roll your body to breathe could be a root cause, thus lifting it and dropping your legs, needing to kick harder to stay balanced, increased effort and rushed catch to gather, missing the leverage you ought to be getting with that reach. Its a cycle that seems to be trying to keep up with itself rather than balanced.

Suggest focusing on your hips and rotating them for balance. And quit the hypoxic stuff for a while

Kurt_Godel

Ceepo wrote: »

On a slightly different note. How do you find the wetsuit. I know you had a few problems in transition lately but apart from that would you recommend it. Thanks

Wetsuit is very good, good movement around the shoulders. Not too much lift in the legs (which suits better swimmers). There's a world of difference between just putting it on quickly, and spending 5 mins to ensure a good fit, though.

Zip has been a pain in the ass, getting stuck in 3 races now. The problem is you need help getting the zip in, and I think people haven't been pulling the zip fully into place before zipping down. I had my daughter zip it in and check it was fully in last night, and seemed to come off easy enough.

tunney

lack of symmetry and grace.

Kurt_Godel

shotgunmcos wrote: »

*Also no expert*!

Keeping your elbows reasonably high which is good. Decent push at the last quarter.

Why are you breathing every 5?

turning your head before you roll your body to breathe could be a root cause, thus lifting it and dropping your legs, needing to kick harder to stay balanced, increased effort and rushed catch to gather, missing the leverage you ought to be getting with that reach. Its a cycle that seems to be trying to keep up with itself rather than balanced.

Suggest focusing on your hips and rotating them for balance. And quit the hypoxic stuff for a while

Good analysis, thanks. BE5 because breathing with the tether causes body to drop (no vertical lift from water flowing under body). In fact the tether isn't ideal for analysis as legs need to work harder to stop from sinking (balance and snaking are also issues).

I might try again with pull bouy and centre snorkle.

Ceepo

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Wetsuit is very good, good movement around the shoulders. Not too much lift in the legs (which suits better swimmers). There's a world of difference between just putting it on quickly, and spending 5 mins to ensure a good fit, though.

Zip has been a pain in the ass, getting stuck in 3 races now. The problem is you need help getting the zip in, and I think people haven't been pulling the zip fully into place before zipping down. I had my daughter zip it in and check it was fully in last night, and seemed to come off easy enough.

Thanks I am on the look out for a new suit at the moment and considering trying on to check for fit. Have a Zone 3 Aspire at the Mo but it past it sell buy date now.
Thanks

MojoMaker

You suffer the same as me Kurt. Left arm pulling wide, not using lats on that side for power but relying on shoulder strength, and your kick is almost the same as mine - too wide, too deep, and not balanced. This could be a video of me if I squinted! Right side looks purposeful in comparison.

Was this taken at B2R or did you fly over to Dory's swimnasium?

Kurt_Godel

MojoMaker wrote: »

You suffer the same as me Kurt. Left arm pulling wide, not using lats on that side for power but relying on shoulder strength, and your kick is almost the same as mine - too wide, too deep, and not balanced. This could be a video of me if I squinted! Right side looks purposeful in comparison.

Was this taken at B2R or did you fly over to Dory's swimnasium?

Food for thought there all right, thanks!

I have a paddling pool out the back yard just deep enough to swim in, and an elastic tether, with a Samsung S5 waterproof phone.

MojoMaker

By the way, when I make those comments I make them from a position of empathy rather than having a critical eye - I would be quite happy with your recent swim times so something's clearly working for you. As Interested spent the winter telling me, when it finally does click you will disappear out of sight, and all the training is about moving closer to the point where it 'clicks'. On the basis that form = balance, and balance = basis of speed, then all the training is about achieving form and then holding form with endurance.

If anyone else is keen maybe we could get a few folks together for a stroke analysis session somewhere? I am certainly overdue a new assessment. A waterproof phone might be all we need to get a basic session together?

pgibbo

It's difficult to tell but are you holding your breath a little on the first 2 strokes after you breath. It's like you only exhale in the couple of strokes before you take a breath. Hard to tell though.

Kurt_Godel

pgibbo wrote: »

It's difficult to tell but are you holding your breath a little on the first 2 strokes after you breath. It's like you only exhale in the couple of strokes before you take a breath. Hard to tell though.

Well spotted! Yes I was holding breath back... breathing with the tether is difficult as you sink when turning for air, so I was trying to limit that.

Anyway, here is take 2, with breathing taken out of the equation, and a better angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58MNIXYKnYs

zico10

Not that I'm qualified to give an opinion, but I think the clip needs to be longer than 30 seconds, and in it you should swim at a range of different intensities. We might see where your stroke starts to break down as the effort increases.

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

Not that I'm qualified to give an opinion, but I think the clip needs to be longer than 30 seconds, and in it you should swim at a range of different intensities. We might see where your stroke starts to break down as the effort increases.

also tethered swimming != endless pool != swimming

Kurt_Godel

tunney wrote: »

also tethered swimming != endless pool != swimming

Yes very limited in effect alright- however this is the first time I've seen my underwater stroke, in that respect its been useful. I've been trying to eliminate a slight crossover for a while now- how do you view the stroke in that regard?

okane1

Where you swimming at a fast pace?

Maybe it's the angle of the camera but your body looks low in the water.
As your right arm enters your legs separate outwards suggesting you're rotating too much. You can see the difference on you left side - less rotate and legs stay together.

Try not to kick so deep, keep the movement shallow and faster rate.

Arm appear to be entering the water downwards and thus you are starting the catch phase late and missing a lot of water. Try to enter your arm just after your elbow and finish the extension just under the water and start pulling from the top, not 1/4 way down.

Once your head comes back in the water breath out straight away, don't hold your breath. Only breath in when your head lifts - don't breath out during this phase. Breath during recovery and get your head back in the water before your arm enters.

Try to get a view from all sides. Got mine done 2yrs ago and gives you a great insight!
I'll post here if you would like to see it OP.

Kurt_Godel

okane1 wrote: »

Where you swimming at a fast pace?

Maybe it's the angle of the camera but your body looks low in the water.
As your right arm enters your legs separate outwards suggesting you're rotating too much. You can see the difference on you left side - less rotate and legs stay together.

Try not to kick so deep, keep the movement shallow and faster rate.

Arm appear to be entering the water downwards and thus you are starting the catch phase late and missing a lot of water. Try to enter your arm just after your elbow and finish the extension just under the water and start pulling from the top, not 1/4 way down.

Once your head comes back in the water breath out straight away, don't hold your breath. Only breath in when your head lifts - don't breath out during this phase. Breath during recovery and get your head back in the water before your arm enters.

Try to get a view from all sides. Got mine done 2yrs ago and gives you a great insight!
I'll post here if you would like to see it OP.

Thanks, thats very useful. Especially the part about starting the catch late.

Unsure of pace as it was tethered- but effort was about 750m pace I'd imagine. We'll be doing proper pool-eye in a couple of months.

I'd love to see your video, please do post it!

okane1

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Thanks, thats very useful. Especially the part about starting the catch late.

Unsure of pace as it was tethered- but effort was about 750m pace I'd imagine. We'll be doing proper pool-eye in a couple of months.

I'd love to see your video, please do post it!

From 2yrs ago thanks to Peter Kern!
(Note I had/have a lazy kick!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYC-w-zmrp8&feature=youtu.be

Kurt_Godel

okane1 wrote: »

From 2yrs ago thanks to Peter Kern!
(Note I had/have a lazy kick!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYC-w-zmrp8&feature=youtu.be

Cheers, very useful, and I see what you mean about the entry.

Oryx

I have been repeatedly criticised for having stiff hands; yours look rigid too, but noone here seems to take issue with that? Just curious as to whether relaxed hands are important?

okane1

I go with relaxed but firm hands. Relaxed to feel the water and let them adjusted based on moving water but firm to ensure you get maximum thrust through each stroke. Fingers are relaxed, not squeezing together
Certainly not fixed/solid.

Kurt_Godel

Oryx wrote: »

I have been repeatedly criticised for having stiff hands; yours look rigid too, but noone here seems to take issue with that? Just curious as to whether relaxed hands are important?

If you slow down the second youtube vid I posted above you'll get a better idea of what is happening with the hands- they are paddles so need to be large and firm, but the flexibility is in the wrist as the "S" shape is made underwater.

(although I think I'm losing power at the end by exiting sideways)

griffin100

Oryx wrote: »

I have been repeatedly criticised for having stiff hands; yours look rigid too, but noone here seems to take issue with that? Just curious as to whether relaxed hands are important?

Stiff / rigid hands are one of the multitude of causes under investigation at the moment as the cause of my arm and hand problems. My swimming is massively curtailed as a result (15k per week>>>>>>2,700m last week )

Mr Tango

Bit more glide at the front?. Obviously only when there is no current out its with you

sconhome

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

If you slow down the second youtube vid I posted above you'll get a better idea of what is happening with the hands- they are paddles so need to be large and firm, but the flexibility is in the wrist as the "S" shape is made underwater.

(although I think I'm losing power at the end by exiting sideways)

It is an interesting point.

I was pulled up years ago about having strong but relaxed hands ie my fingers slightly spread and not locked rigidly together like yours in the vid.

It made no difference to my stroke which way my hands were but there was something I read a couple of years later that having relaxed fingers meant you had more hand surface area gripping the water and more turbulence between the fingers increasing the catch effect.

Could be a load of rubbish but I swim relaxed hands with strong wrists now. Evidence that suits my style, quite likely

Kurt_Godel

Mr Tango wrote: »

Bit more glide at the front?. Obviously only when there is no current out its with you

Definitely! This is what okane is saying too. I tried it tonight in the sea, seemed to work well.

My glide shortened (or disappeared) a while back when I was trying to get EVF, but I could see today just how much of the catch I was missing without it.

Dory Dory

Here's a nice article and video on swimming mechanics that distinguish pool technique from open water technique. One thing I've been told as I am trying to become a better-than-crap open water swimmer is to use the "band-only" in practice to force less glide, quicker turnover, and stronger finish of the stroke. Please note: band-only is not for everyone....but it is something I have started using.

http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/multisport-zone/multisport-lab/articles/develop-world-class-open-water-swim-mechanics-051811.aspx

Kurt_Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

Here's a nice article and video on swimming mechanics that distinguish pool technique from open water technique. One thing I've been told as I am trying to become a better-than-crap open water swimmer is to use the "band-only" in practice to force less glide, quicker turnover, and stronger finish of the stroke. Please note: band-only is not for everyone....but it is something I have started using.

http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/multisport-zone/multisport-lab/articles/develop-world-class-open-water-swim-mechanics-051811.aspx

Great video, thanks for posting! And you are quite right, its not all about the glide (particularly in choppy conditions). FWIW I outperform in rougher seas, probably because the earlier entry is more suited to it. There's a lad in the Asgard club I watch in the pool. His forté is sea swimming though, thats where he excels. The contrast in his stroke compared to the more "natural" pool swimmers... he has a much choppier stroke, his torso practically undulates as he moves, and his hand entry is an almost 45˚as he "scoops" the water with violence. It's very different to the others, but he is a demon in the sea.

The more techniques you can apply to the OW conditions, the better, I suppose. The night before each race I say a prayer- "please Saint Neptune can you ensure just the right amount of chop to make it interesting, but also benign enough so TI won't call off the race". Chop suits my "natural" stroke. But in calmer conditions I get passed more easily. Need to be aware of the extra glide for that!

joey100

I outperform in rougher seas

Maybe this is part of the reason you were unhappy with your swims in Carlow and Athy? Both would have been calm with no chop, might explain why you found people pulling away from you on the downstream sections if they had a longer glide.

okane1

Excellent skill is the ability to adjust your stroke based on the water around you. Going from a nice gliding pool stroke (calm conditions) into a very quick/fast turn over in rough conditions. Look at water polo players for an ideal of this style of swimming physical swim stroke.

Kurt_Godel

joey100 wrote: »

Maybe this is part of the reason you were unhappy with your swims in Carlow and Athy? Both would have been calm with no chop, might explain why you found people pulling away from you on the downstream sections if they had a longer glide.

Quite true, this is what had me first questioning aspects of my stroke. Getting left for dust downstream in Athy (after gaining ground upstream) was an eye opener. Greater glide (and stronger rear exit) would have helped here.

okane1 wrote: »

Excellent skill is the ability to adjust your stroke based on the water around you. Going from a nice gliding pool stroke (calm conditions) into a very quick/fast turn over in rough conditions. Look at water polo players for an ideal of this style of swimming physical swim stroke.

Absolutely, swimming to suit conditions are what its all about. A water polo change of pace going around bouys would be useful too!

okane1

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Absolutely, swimming to suit conditions are what its all about. A water polo change of pace going around bouys would be useful too!

Coming from that sport it's of great benefit. Be able to hold your pace with your head up sighting is very useful

pgibbo

Glide - it's a dirty word