Question on FE-1s

mashup

I'm looking to take the FE-1s over the next year. While I have a job in Industrial Relations I don't have any legal qualifications so I'm not planning on having a proper run at this Autumn's exams. however I was wondering if there was one of the exams that wasn't as difficult as the rest that I could focus on and get done in the Autumn just by taking grinds (if nothing else just to get me started). Any suggestions or advice in general would be much appreciated.

Mr. Incognito

You really need to do some basic research. Have to pass a minimum of three first sitting

mashup

Thanks, i've been reading up and didn't find that anywhere. The Blackhall place website is good but I saw nothing about that there.

Mr. Incognito

Did you not click on the first link that said rules for fe1 exams??

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/education/FE-1/Education%20HBS%20-%20Change%20to%20Rules%20Governing%20the%20FE1.pdf

mashup

Apparently not


A further question, if I'm looking to sit 3 or 4 of them in the Spring and the different preparatory courses don't start until late this year or early next year, what would be the best way to begin preparing soon, grinds? other short courses?

notabasicb

Well that depends on how much if any legal knowledge you have. If it is absolutely none then a decent place to start might be with nutshells.

These are very basic overviews of subjects - typically aimed at law students exam revision. They have all the basic info re each topic. There are like those leaving cert less stress more success books. Typically cost approx 25 euro each and there should be one available for each of the fe1 subjects. Don't buy the company law one unless it has the 2014 act information though.

My personal preference are the Round Hall published ones but others are available.

If you are thoroughly familiar with the content of 4 of these before you commence your prep course you'll have a good foundation to build on.

mashup

Execllent, thanks that's very helpful.

partyguinness

I do know non-law graduates that sat and passed the FE1s but they did some 1 year course in DIT.

I did the Griffith college revision course in 2000/2001 after a BCL & LLM. Didnt find it much use but it was more to keep me focused.

There were 3 (2 guys and 1 lady) on the same course with BAs and zero legal background who had decided to embark on an epic journey.

Hilariously, 2 of them boldly announced at the beginning of the revision course (Griffith College) that they intended sitting all 8 in one go. As the weeks and months went by they were down to 3.

1. The girl walked out crying after 20 mins into her first exam- never went back.
2. The one guy never showed up and now works with the Council.
3. I think the other guy is still trying- 14 years later.

If are asking about the 'easier' exams to start with, personally I would go for criminal & constitutional- tort and company were defo the most intense
in my day so I would also stick in EU and after that you are on your own.

But, that was just my encounters. I am sure there are non-law graduates with no conversion course behind them who have done it. One thing for sure, the FE1s are a lot more intense than any BCL or LLB exam.

In my day, the 8 were staggered over 2.5 weeks (Mon, Wed & Fri)- that was bad enough but now I believe that are in successive days.

I sat 8 in one go and passed 6- I was just obsessed with passing EU, Company and Tort, and Equity. Constitutional and criminal were very straight forward.

I failed property and contract- TBH my own fault, I neglected them and got caught out on the day but sat them in autumn and that was nice and straightforward.

There was no way you could get by with just Nutshells. I used to read the examiners reports and they were mindful of testing a broad knowledge of the topic rather than just vomiting out a pro forma generic answer. These were reports from say, 1997-2000. I am afraid I have no idea how things are now.

TBH I am not sure what advice I can give as you prob need to speak to someone in your position who has succeeded.

The very best of luck.

mashup

Thanks for the overview!

That's certainly my plan to speak to as many people as possible (I was talking to a guy who had only done them recently and he advised doing 5 at once, I doubt I could hack that though).

The only areas of law I've really engaged with are the areas I'm interested in because of my work (Employment and Industrial Relations law), I imagine it'll be a big challenge to build a proficiency in areas that I'm not at all interested in.

GusherING

Tbh, I think you would be best doing either the Postgrad diploma in Law in DIT, the BA in Law in DIT or the one year diploma in legal studies from the Law Society. DBS or Griffith College may also do similar courses.

These courses will cover all eight subjects that are examined in the FE1 and give you the necessary overview of each of them. They are all much of a muchness but you may find they differ in "respectability" and cost wise.

After that it is a case of going to the grind schools or at the very least getting their manuals which cover the syllabus in the right amount of detail and doing the FE1s. Then it is a case of getting a trainee contract to do the PPC1 and PPC2 courses. If you are a mature candidate this will probably help you get through the process.

This is the route I took. I decided in 2010 to embark on a second career in my late twenties. In September 2010 I knew little about law. I now have a BA in Law from DIT and have just finished PPC2. I am nine months away from qualifying and have just turned 30. It is a long road but you just have to take it one step of the way at a time.

Industrial Relations and Employment law only first surfaced for me in PPC2, which is practically at the end of the training process for any solicitor. You will spend several years looking at all sorts of other areas of law before you need to study these niche areas for an exam.

chops018

mashup wrote: »

Thanks for the overview!

That's certainly my plan to speak to as many people as possible (I was talking to a guy who had only done them recently and he advised doing 5 at once, I doubt I could hack that though).

The only areas of law I've really engaged with are the areas I'm interested in because of my work (Employment and Industrial Relations law), I imagine it'll be a big challenge to build a proficiency in areas that I'm not at all interested in.

Academic law and procedural law are very different.

There would be extremely little, if any, employment law examined in the FE1's.

I am not sure you understand what is involved in these exams, pardon me if you do. But content wise they are epic! You literally have to immerse youself in each subject from the manuals/books/notes to looking at exam grids and taking chances leaving areas out to looking over past papers to going over sample answers and then drumming 100's of case names into your head, let alone the actually principles. Not to mention there is a certain way to tackle the problem questions - spot the issue, state the case law applicable, any other legislation, legal commentary, your own recommendation, conclusion - that's an A answer and just for a problem question but you see what I mean.

These exams are horrendous, but not impossible. I know people who were excellent in college at undergrad law and tried to tackle these and gave up. It just requires copious amounts of work - 5 hours 5 days a week at least 2 months before the exams in my opinion - and a lot of planning and organising. I worked part time for the first 4 and then went full time and did them bit by bit and it took me 4 sittings.

In saying the above, everyone is different and you hear of people who haven't studied law before getting on grand and nailing these exams in a couple of sittings, and these are working full time. You also hear of people just studying the big topics, getting lucky and passing. I wouldn't advise this, I recommend for most subjects you cover 90% of the syllabus.

I got an average degree and a good-ish masters and I have to say I really liked studying law. But if I could go back I would have done law with business or something, just for the extra option.

Anyway even though I liked law in college I found the FE1's very difficult. But not impossible. It took me 4 sittings to get all 8 (as mentioned above). I have found that the very bright and well organised will usually get them in 2-3 sittings, the rare or almost unheard of will get them in one sitting, and most people seem to get them in 3-5 sittings - reason being that there is usally always an achillies heel subject that people have to repeat (different for everyone, for me it was Company), or they simply just do them bit by bit after they got the first 3 or 4.

partyguinness

chops018 wrote: »

Academic law and procedural law are very different.

There would be extremely little, if any, employment law examined in the FE1's.

I am not sure you understand what is involved in these exams, pardon me if you do. But content wise they are epic! You literally have to immerse youself in each subject from the manuals/books/notes to looking at exam grids and taking chances leaving areas out to looking over past papers to going over sample answers and then drumming 100's of case names into your head, let alone the actually principles. Not to mention there is a certain way to tackle the problem questions - spot the issue, state the case law applicable, any other legislation, legal commentary, your own recommendation, conclusion - that's an A answer and just for a problem question but you see what I mean.

These exams are horrendous, but not impossible. I know people who were excellent in college at undergrad law and tried to tackle these and gave up. It just requires copious amounts of work - 5 hours 5 days a week at least 2 months before the exams in my opinion - and a lot of planning and organising. I worked part time for the first 4 and then went full time and did them bit by bit and it took me 4 sittings (as I mentioned above).

In saying the above, everyone is different and you hear of people who haven't studied law before getting on grand and nailing these exams in a couple of sittings, and these are working full time. You also hear of people just studying the big topics, getting lucky and passing. I wouldn't advise this, I recommend for most subjects you cover 90% of the syllabus.

I got an average degree and a good-ish masters and I have to say I really liked studying law. But if I could go back I would have done law with business or something, just for the extra option.

Anyway even though I liked law in college I found the FE1's very difficult. But not impossible. It took me 4 sittings to get all 8. I have found that the very bright and well organised will usually get them in 2-3 sittings, the rare or almost unheard of will get them in one sitting, and most people seem to get them in 3-5 sittings - reason being that there is usally always an achillies heel subject that people have to repeat (different for everyone, for me it was Company), or they simply just do them bit by bit after they got the first 3 or 4.

I would second all of that. The exams questions themselves are grand but it's the workload that is horrendous. You really must have a grasp on all topics unlike at undergrad when you were only examined on the course work actually covered.

I know several law grads that struggled to pass them- some went in over confident and thought: "Oh sure I just got my 2:1, I just have to turn up." Big land they got.

Bearing in mind I had a BCL & LLM, I literally took 3.5 months off and just devoted myself 24/7. I started New Year's day and went 7 days a week 10am to 11-12 pm. No day off, no girlfriend no sports. Of course in 2000, no smart phones and the use of the internet for research etc was non-existent.

At one stage I actually did not physically leave the house for 4 weeks (I moved home to parents)- okay not very healthy but that's what it took. Obviously everyone had their own methods. But planning and organisations are key- I still come across the little booklet I used for my study plan...(shudders)

partyguinness

Without doubt, sitting and passing the FE1s are probably the hardest and most committed I have ever been to a cause in my entire life. Admittedly, I put all that pressure on myself by sitting 8 in one go.

As I did not have 'contacts' in law or a training contract, I did know that having all 8 passed was a huge plus when looking for a contract so I just went for it.

The glory days when offices actually advertised for apprentices...I got mine via an Irish Times advert.

chops018

partyguinness wrote: »

The glory days when offices actually advertised for apprentices...I got mine via an Irish Times advert.

It's slowly picking up.

More and more ad's popping up during the year on the law society website for apprenticeships.

However, they are usually for minimum wage.

notabasicb

partyguinness wrote: »

Bearing in mind I had a BCL & LLM, I literally took 3.5 months off and just devoted myself 24/7. I started New Year's day and went 7 days a week 10am to 11-12 pm. No day off, no girlfriend no sports. Of course in 2000, no smart phones and the use of the internet for research etc was non-existent.

At one stage I actually did not physically leave the house for 4 weeks (I moved home to parents)- okay not very healthy but that's what it took. Obviously everyone had their own methods. But planning and organisations are key- I still come across the little booklet I used for my study plan...(shudders)

This sounds like such an unhealthy way to approach fe1s a sure fire way to burn out - how did you survive that?

partyguinness

notabasicb wrote: »

This sounds like such an unhealthy way to approach fe1s a sure fire way to burn out - how did you survive that?

I'm made of strong stuff...;)